Snapped axels, riddle me this...

Auuteage · 06-04-2007, 01:19 PM

As a follow up to my urgent mechanical trepair thread yesterday...

Just got back from the mechanics. Snapped axel. Im talking like taking a celery stick and snapping it in half.

Now, I had a stuffed axel and bearing on the other side a few months ago, wasnt snapped though.

I drive a one tonne ute, often carrying heavy loads, sometimes close to a tonne. WHY is this happening, it should be able to take the weight shouldnt it ?

With , say, a couple of heavy pallets, what would be the correct way to load them in the tray to minimise the stress on the axel? I always figured heavier stuff up the front, but sometimes it dosent work out that way. I think I need to know more about how I should be loading it up.

By the way, in the interest of being aware of getting ripped off, what would you expect to pay for a right hand side axel for a AU2 one tonner? Its getting sourced by mechanic who does all my work anyway and I dont think would rip me, but I want to be sure.

Thanks. Its great to have knowledgable people to go to here when everything goes to **** and you need to find out why !!!

JC · 06-04-2007, 01:27 PM

Are you sure it's a one tonner ute? I know a few people who reckon theirs is, but it turns out it's just a standard ute, which is aroun 700kg carrying capacity. basically, if you have the heavy duty leaves on the rear, and light truck tyres, then it's a 1 tonner, otherwise it's not. I reckon you've been overloading it, as the axles don't just snap for no reason.

As to price - sorry, no idea. But given that an aftermarket rear wheel bearing is $55 per side, and a front hub is around the $200 mark per side from Ford, an axle would be anywhere from $100 to $400. But that's just a guess.

Auuteage · 06-04-2007, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

Are you sure it's a one tonner ute? I know a few people who reckon theirs is, but it turns out it's just a standard ute, which is aroun 700kg carrying capacity. basically, if you have the heavy duty leaves on the rear, and light truck tyres, then it's a 1 tonner, otherwise it's not. I reckon you've been overloading it, as the axles don't just snap for no reason.

As to price - sorry, no idea. But given that an aftermarket rear wheel bearing is $55 per side, and a front hub is around the $200 mark per side from Ford, an axle would be anywhere from $100 to $400. But that's just a guess.

Heavy duty leaves? Ok, dont know what they are. Can you tell me where to find them, what they are?

Interesting point you make. Im suss on it. The car has 17 inch XR8 alloys on it, whaich arent the standard (obviously) one tonner wheels. I have been meaning to change them. The leaves, though, wouldnt have a clue...

**Mechan1k** · 06-04-2007, 02:53 PM

The leaf springs for the 1-tonner contain 7 leaves in the "pack" ... just stick you head down under the back of the ute and see ... you ca count them (the flat long bits on a slight curve just inside the wheels mounted to the diff/axle housing.

The AU 1-tonners have 3 "short" packing springs under the long leaves ... this will be a give away.

If it's not a 1-tonner it will have approximately 4-5 leaves ... all long.

Anyway ... for a start you arte using the wrong wheel/tyre package for a 1-tonne vehicle ... they should be something along the lines of 215/60R16 C10x's (can't remember the exact load rating ... I think 101-103) ... and AUI's used 15" steel rims whereas AUII-onwards used 16".

There is a pic on here somewhere that shows the spring pack of a 1-tonner ... I think Axemans82 and OzJavelin had some pics of what their looked like underneth.

B-series vehicles changed the design of their 1-tone spring packs to all long ones.

DavesXr8 · 06-04-2007, 02:54 PM

Leaves determine how much load the car can carry if they are soft then you will get sag.

You can get them reset to a higher rate so the load doesnt affect the the level but when no load is on you will get a lot bumpier unladen ride.

The srpings will have nothing to do with the axles braking if you did 1 on the left before the shock may have gone through to the other axle giving a small fracture and now the new side has made it break.

Best way to load the tray with leafs is have the weight even over the axle that way the leaf is taking the load and not any other part of the car.

But it comes down to if your axles are rated at 700kg payload then putting over that can hurt them but only if you are fanging it heaps normal driving shouldnt affect them if you do fang it with heavy load then i suggest you change driving style.

Hope this helps some.

Also a bent diff can cause axle failure

Dave

Auuteage · 06-04-2007, 04:16 PM

Ok thanks all.

Im pretty sure I have seven leaves, with the 3 shorter spacers inbetween, but I wont be sure till I get the car back. I also have no idea what the new axel put in a few months ago was rated at, and I wont know what the new one will be rated at either.

Regarding the wheels. Couldnt I keep the tyres I have and just get the appropriate steel rims. To buy new tyres just to go to 16's or whatever would cost alot of $$...

Auuteage · 06-04-2007, 04:18 PM

I should also add the car never even gets close to being fanged, loaded or unloaded, so yeah....the whole axel thing is a shock and worry.

toyotaxr8 · 06-04-2007, 04:43 PM

when loading a vehicle put the majority of the weight just over the rear axle towards the front. as the rear is made to take the load not the front.

**Mechan1k** · 06-04-2007, 08:12 PM

The tyres on the XR rims with not fit the 16" steelies ... and aren't the correct load rating either.

I have done what DavesXr8 has mentioned ... I have replaced my leaves for stronger rate ones ... and have a thicker/stronger 2nd stage leaf in it (still sport suspension though) ... the 2nd stage is the one that is flatter underneath and seperates away at the ends.

When loaded up the other leafs straighten out until it gets to this second stage and then sag is stopped at that point ... and the suspension stiffens up more when I reach that point.

I wasn't aware there was a rating for the axle though ... from memory looking at part numbers there is no difference between standard and 1-tonne when it comes to axles. The difference was the suspension to handle the weight.

I have 17" Territory steel wheels on my ute ... they are 1-tonne rated ... but getting approriate load rated rubber to suit is near impossible ... unless you get a larger tyre (outside the legal increase allowed) ... but I am sure it can get engineered.

I am lucky mine is an XLS with sport suspension from factory and I don't have to meet the strict 1-tonne guidelines.

ratter · 06-04-2007, 09:26 PM

What part of the axle snapped?

Auuteage · 06-04-2007, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

What part of the axle snapped?

At the very end of the wheel end,. if that makes any sense. Take the wheel and brake assembly off, and you have one end of the axel sheared of flush with the end of the diff housing....

Does this tell you anything ?

Auuteage · 06-04-2007, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

The tyres on the XR rims with not fit the 16" steelies ... and aren't the correct load rating either.

I have done what DavesXr8 has mentioned ... I have replaced my leaves for stronger rate ones ... and have a thicker/stronger 2nd stage leaf in it (still sport suspension though) ... the 2nd stage is the one that is flatter underneath and seperates away at the ends.

When loaded up the other leafs straighten out until it gets to this second stage and then sag is stopped at that point ... and the suspension stiffens up more when I reach that point.

I wasn't aware there was a rating for the axle though ... from memory looking at part numbers there is no difference between standard and 1-tonne when it comes to axles. The difference was the suspension to handle the weight.

I have 17" Territory steel wheels on my ute ... they are 1-tonne rated ... but getting approriate load rated rubber to suit is near impossible ... unless you get a larger tyre (outside the legal increase allowed) ... but I am sure it can get engineered.

I am lucky mine is an XLS with sport suspension from factory and I don't have to meet the strict 1-tonne guidelines.

god damn, so I need new tyres as well ??! They would need to be rated at 850kg yeah? Seeing I think the diff is rated at 1700kgs. Would have thought there would be plenty of 17inch 850kg rated tyres out there ? The ones I have now are rated at 650kgs

Man, all this cant be good for my insurance, which costs $200 per month ! hell.

mik · 06-04-2007, 10:02 PM

if its a weight issue perhaps it might pay to take it over the weigh bridge when the offending pallet/s are on board, it would`nt be the first time freight has been labeled with a bs weight, it might be over loaded, if thats the case they owe you 2 axles.

ratter · 06-04-2007, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auuteage

At the very end of the wheel end,. if that makes any sense. Take the wheel and brake assembly off, and you have one end of the axel sheared of flush with the end of the diff housing....

Does this tell you anything ?

So did the wheel come off?

For it to break there, it sounds like a weight issue, possibly even magnified by possibly a different offset rim ??

Auuteage · 06-04-2007, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

So did the wheel come off?

For it to break there, it sounds like a weight issue, possibly even magnified by possibly a different offset rim ??

Didnt come off, but once on the hoist it was VERY loose, should have come off. Yeah, I carry alot of weight regularly, but not ever over a tonne.

ratter · 06-04-2007, 11:14 PM

One of my customers is a courier with a egas BA 1 tonner, he had a rear wheel bearing fail, from being ok to collapsing in a day, no noises leading up to it like normal, possibly you may have a bearing collapse and it tried to seize the wheel, but because of the load the wheel did not lock but partially twisted the axle and then the axle broke , but I would have thought the wheel would seperate as only the brake caliper would be stopping the wheel from seperating

**Mechan1k** · 06-04-2007, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auuteage

god damn, so I need new tyres as well ??! They would need to be rated at 850kg yeah? Seeing I think the diff is rated at 1700kgs. Would have thought there would be plenty of 17inch 850kg rated tyres out there ? The ones I have now are rated at 650kgs

Man, all this cant be good for my insurance, which costs $200 per month ! hell.

Your tyre placard will tell you what you need to have ... passenger tyres for the Sports suspension need 93 V from memory (93=load rating V-speed rating).

For the Commercial tyre ... you should be using a 215/60R16C and then has a seperate load rating of 101 or 103 ... or something along those lines.

Not many out there ... the "Cargo tyres available that Ford use are not the best ... there are Bridgestone ones out there that are a better tyre for grip in the wet ... Commercial/Light Truck tyres are not the best gripping tyre ... built for load/long wear ... and not that cheap either.

Auuteage · 06-04-2007, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

One of my customers is a courier with a egas BA 1 tonner, he had a rear wheel bearing fail, from being ok to collapsing in a day, no noises leading up to it like normal, possibly you may have a bearing collapse and it tried to seize the wheel, but because of the load the wheel did not lock but partially twisted the axle and then the axle broke , but I would have thought the wheel would seperate as only the brake caliper would be stopping the wheel from seperating

my mechanic (sson to be former mechanic) did tell me a while ago (after I did the axel and bearing on the other side), that the RHS bearing was not good and would need replacing soon. Mabe there is the catalyst?

**Mechan1k** · 06-04-2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratter

One of my customers is a courier with a egas BA 1 tonner, he had a rear wheel bearing fail, from being ok to collapsing in a day, no noises leading up to it like normal, possibly you may have a bearing collapse and it tried to seize the wheel, but because of the load the wheel did not lock but partially twisted the axle and then the axle broke , but I would have thought the wheel would seperate as only the brake caliper would be stopping the wheel from seperating

I was lucky ... I had the seal go on the driver's side rear ... and had to pull it all out to replace it ... noticed wear on the bearing as well ... but seeing as the bearing had to come off ... I replaced it in the entire kit I got with the seal.

old bearing wasn't fun to get off the axle either.

DavesXr8 · 07-04-2007, 12:21 AM

You would be getting more load on the axle with the wrong offset than carrying a heavier load.

wrong offset creates more load on bearings and axles than weight to an extent.

You may want to check out a different load bearing for the rear so it can handle more side load and stress as this is caused through offset. Not sure if they are avail tho i havent looked at the axles or bearing on the falcon.

As someone said above the bearing may have started to seize and got the axle hot changing the metalurgy of the metal and causing failuure.

Hope you get it sorted.

Dave

Auuteage · 07-04-2007, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavesXr8

You would be getting more load on the axle with the wrong offset than carrying a heavier load.

wrong offset creates more load on bearings and axles than weight to an extent.

You may want to check out a different load bearing for the rear so it can handle more side load and stress as this is caused through offset. Not sure if they are avail tho i havent looked at the axles or bearing on the falcon.

As someone said above the bearing may have started to seize and got the axle hot changing the metalurgy of the metal and causing failuure.

Hope you get it sorted.

Dave

offset. Sorry. Is this some sort of adjustment, of something that can be done? Im only learning all this stuff, through current circumstance.

DavesXr8 · 07-04-2007, 12:56 AM

Offset is the distance that the weel sits in relation to the axle flange

You have a positive and negative offset wheel im not sure what the actual ofset is on the falcon but with more offset it gives you the chance to run wider tires hence more load on bearings as the wheel and tyre sit further out.

Say you had a 7" rim with an offset of -7mm then went to a 7" rim with an offset of -25 your rim would sit out 18mm more than before so that plus say an extra 25mm in tyre width makes it say 30mm so you have 30mm of tyre rim combo sitting further out than before.

Hope it makes sense.

The measurements above are only examples like i said im not sure what factory offset are.

But most when going for the lower wider tyres need more ofset so the miss parts on the inside of the wheel area eg steering etc

Auuteage · 07-04-2007, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavesXr8

Offset is the distance that the weel sits in relation to the axle flange

You have a positive and negative offset wheel im not sure what the actual ofset is on the falcon but with more offset it gives you the chance to run wider tires hence more load on bearings as the wheel and tyre sit further out.

Say you had a 7" rim with an offset of -7mm then went to a 7" rim with an offset of -25 your rim would sit out 18mm more than before so that plus say an extra 25mm in tyre width makes it say 30mm so you have 30mm of tyre rim combo sitting further out than before.

Hope it makes sense.

The measurements above are only examples like i said im not sure what factory offset are.

But most when going for the lower wider tyres need more ofset so the miss parts on the inside of the wheel area eg steering etc

Thanks dave. Yes well I have 17 inch with low profiles at the moment. But these are coming off for 16 inch rims with approrpriate 102 tyres. Im hoping this will help. The car wasnt meant to have this wheel/tyre combo originally, obviously

DavesXr8 · 07-04-2007, 01:13 AM

Good stuff mate i hope you dont have anymore axle dramas.

Also with lower profile tyres there is not as much absorbtion from the tyre eg with a 16" you have more sidewall than a 17" so the tyre actually absorbs load and bumps better with a 16" but they dont look as good and handle as good for speed but what you need is weoght carrying.

Auuteage · 07-04-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

The leaf springs for the 1-tonner contain 7 leaves in the "pack" ... just stick you head down under the back of the ute and see ... you ca count them (the flat long bits on a slight curve just inside the wheels mounted to the diff/axle housing.

The AU 1-tonners have 3 "short" packing springs under the long leaves ... this will be a give away.

If it's not a 1-tonner it will have approximately 4-5 leaves ... all long.

Anyway ... for a start you arte using the wrong wheel/tyre package for a 1-tonne vehicle ... they should be something along the lines of 215/60R16 C10x's (can't remember the exact load rating ... I think 101-103) ... and AUI's used 15" steel rims whereas AUII-onwards used 16".

There is a pic on here somewhere that shows the spring pack of a 1-tonner ... I think Axemans82 and OzJavelin had some pics of what their looked like underneth.

B-series vehicles changed the design of their 1-tone spring packs to all long ones.

Ok, seems I have the correct leave arrangement for a one tonner. Guess the wheels are letting me down. Would you recommend I go 15 or 16 inch rims? What are some options here? Territory rims? The only ones I have seen have been 17 inch ones. thanks again

Auuteage · 07-04-2007, 05:03 PM

Ok, would these be a goer??

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI....5146&rd=1&rd=1

17's though! Could I find 102 rated rubber for these. I seem to remember talk here a long time ago that 16's would be what someone like me should get, for some reason...

JC · 07-04-2007, 06:05 PM

If the car has 17s, with 95 load rated tyres, and it's supposed to have 16s at 102 rating, I'm at a loss to understand how it ever got a RWC. I would try and go back to whoever did it and ask them for an explanation.

If it is determined that those rims are in fact roadworthy, then stick with them. They are probably not the cause of the axle snapping - the weight of the loads you have been carrying would be the primary cause. The only reason people are saying you have the wrong wheels is that they are not standard for a one-tonner, but no-one has yet said that they can't carry the load. I would imagine that they can, since they are rated at 650kg each.

Auuteage · 07-04-2007, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JC

If the car has 17s, with 95 load rated tyres, and it's supposed to have 16s at 102 rating, I'm at a loss to understand how it ever got a RWC. I would try and go back to whoever did it and ask them for an explanation.

If it is determined that those rims are in fact roadworthy, then stick with them. They are probably not the cause of the axle snapping - the weight of the loads you have been carrying would be the primary cause. The only reason people are saying you have the wrong wheels is that they are not standard for a one-tonner, but no-one has yet said that they can't carry the load. I would imagine that they can, since they are rated at 650kg each.

Well it came from a car yard, so they probably have a way of getting dodsy, or so so RWC I would imagine. So the rims can take 650kgs each, as can the tyres, and its a one tonner, why would it be snapping axels?? Im confused.

Auuteage · 09-04-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auuteage

Well it came from a car yard, so they probably have a way of getting dodsy, or so so RWC I would imagine. So the rims can take 650kgs each, as can the tyres, and its a one tonner, why would it be snapping axels?? Im confused.

I have come to the conclusion that a failed bearing caused my axel to snap. Why? I dont really know much at ALL bout these things. But someone else suggested it could have had a effect, and I know that bearing on that axel was on its way out. My mechanic told me bout 3 services ago, I forgot about it in due course and he said nothing more. I expect my mechanic to find and fix these things.

The wheel/tyre combo cant be helping, and as soon as I find suitable rims (harder than I thought for 16 inch), I will be changing them over.

JC · 09-04-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auuteage

I have come to the conclusion that a failed bearing caused my axel to snap. Why? I dont really know much at ALL bout these things. But someone else suggested it could have had a effect, and I know that bearing on that axel was on its way out. My mechanic told me bout 3 services ago, I forgot about it in due course and he said nothing more. I expect my mechanic to find and fix these things.

The wheel/tyre combo cant be helping, and as soon as I find suitable rims (harder than I thought for 16 inch), I will be changing them over.

If you cracked a spoke, or rim on one of the wheels, then I would say that the rims are not suitable. But as you haven't, then I reckon the rims are fine. I would say the wheel bearing theory is closer to the mark.