Upgrade to 8 speed?

[Vesper Martini]

On car Forums there always talk and speculation about upgrading engines.
fitting a Coyote is a popular one, but the cost and complexity often rules it out.

What about a trans upgrade there are a few used ZF 8 speeds from Jeeps & BMWs etc available now. and would cost much less than an engine upgrade

are they generic enough to fit to a Falcon or Territory bell housings mounts removal of 4WD? would the cars ECU just accept the change


bottom line is it worth it? probably not. but interested to hear if its possible

[Vesper Martini]

The 8 Speed seems to be quite versatile too
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...f-eight-speed/

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

On car Forums there always talk and speculation about upgrading engines.
fitting a Coyote is a popular one, but the cost and complexity often rules it out.

What about a trans upgrade there are a few used ZF 8 speeds from Jeeps & BMWs etc available now. and would cost much less than an engine upgrade

are they generic enough to fit to a Falcon or Territory bell housings mounts removal of 4WD? would the cars ECU just accept the change


bottom line is it worth it? probably not. but interested to hear if its possible

I've also wondered about this.
One story I heard was locally Ford took the calibration settings from a BMW ZF 6 speed auto when they first starting working on the program to fit it locally and then started their own development.

I guess with enough money anything can be done however the physical installation might me the least troublesome part and rather getting the electronics to work together between car and transmission.

[Bossxr8]

Better off using the 10R80. Already used behind the Coyote, and the 3 litre powerstroke that is pretty similar to the 2.7 in Territory. I think you can already buy trans controllers for them to run it.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Better off using the 10R80. Already used behind the Coyote, and the 3 litre powerstroke that is pretty similar to the 2.7 in Territory. I think you can already buy trans controllers for them to run it.

sounds good, but I just thought being new they weren't readily available at a good price

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

I've also wondered about this.
One story I heard was locally Ford took the calibration settings from a BMW ZF 6 speed auto when they first starting working on the program to fit it locally and then started their own development.

I guess with enough money anything can be done however the physical installation might me the least troublesome part and rather getting the electronics to work together between car and transmission.

I hear you, you do all the fabrication, custom bell housing modified drive shaft etc, fit it all up and then the car just goes into limp mode..

there must be a way around this, what's the Trans controller Boss mentions

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

sounds good, but I just thought being new they weren't readily available at a good price

You aren't going to get a ZF8 cheaply either.

Easiest way to get one is out of a wrecked bi-turbo Ranger.

[Crazy Dazz]

I recently got a factory rebuilt ZF.
It was built to order, and ZF were very particular about getting the serial number and software versions, to ensure it was correct, and correctly programmed for my car.

Now Obviously "anything is possible" if you're prepared to customise enough components, but I think it's clear that these things are not "plug'n'play". I tend to think that if something was available as a factory option, even in a different car, then the parts should be available to make it work. But I don't know how you'd go installing an engine and transmission combo that was never sold. And then how do you make it work with the tc & esc in your car.

I love watching the tv shows like "Banger Races" and "scrapheap challenge," etc. And some of the things they come up with are truly astonishing.
But in a recent one, they transplanted a Jaguar V8 and transmission into a smaller vehicle. The Jg had seven different computer modules, and they brought across everything, including the entire Jag wiring loom.
And they just couldn't make it work. It seemed to run fine, but everytime they put the foot down, it would cut the power and wouldn't rev.

If all the computers were programmable, or replaced with ones that were, and you knew enough to reprogram them, then in theory you could make anything work, but that's a lot of big ifs.

And why?
I think autos are a bit like razors (and toothbrushes).
Yes, the old cut-throats were a bit iffy, and even the original singles weren't great. But do I really need 5 blades and a track-ball to have a shave?

I'm sure 8 gears is better than 6, but how much better? And does that justify the expense?

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

I hear you, you do all the fabrication, custom bell housing modified drive shaft etc, fit it all up and then the car just goes into limp mode..

there must be a way around this, what's the Trans controller Boss mentions

Old video but mentions working on a controller for the 10speed auto...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uax1ZlSWXBA&t=33s
And in this they are swapping out a 4speed auto for a 10speed..work in progress.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48KztMB3Zpw

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

I hear you, you do all the fabrication, custom bell housing modified drive shaft etc, fit it all up and then the car just goes into limp mode..

there must be a way around this, what's the Trans controller Boss mentions

It's called "pull all your hair out"...
Or "hit your head with a 4lb lump hammer"....
Or easier to fly to the Sun!..if you go at night you won't get burnt...

Of course I am joshing you, have you thought about contacting the folk who sell TREMEC transmissions, just ask if they could help out as a courtesy!..you may find it's already been done and they could or couldn't help the customer!

www.malwoodauto.com.au


Cheers bWilliam

[Franco Cozzo]

I imagine we would have been having the same discussions 30 years ago about how complex 4L60E/4L80E were with their electronics compared to TH700/TH400 autos at the time being mechanically controlled.

Now we're having the same discussions about how complex ZF6/8/10 are compared to early 4sp electronically controlled autos

GM seems to really support their product in the aftermarket, you can buy their new engines and transmissions with control packages for retrofit into older cars, Ford seems to lag a little behind with supporting their product in the aftermarket, they do release them eventually but it's not promoted as heavily.

[bungarra]

This guy from Diablo explains some of the issues they had to help Gas Monkey put a modern Hellcat Motor into a Dart. I would say the trans change would be the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRD4Z5R8s2c

[oldel]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

On car Forums there always talk and speculation about upgrading engines.
fitting a Coyote is a popular one, but the cost and complexity often rules it out.

What about a trans upgrade there are a few used ZF 8 speeds from Jeeps & BMWs etc available now. and would cost much less than an engine upgrade

are they generic enough to fit to a Falcon or Territory bell housings mounts removal of 4WD? would the cars ECU just accept the change


bottom line is it worth it? probably not. but interested to hear if its possible

Sorry to be a downer but ZFs don't use bell housings - it's integral to the box body. Any sort of adapter added onto the front would mean a longer shaft or or maybe grinding off and alloy welding on, or something as serious?
It's been annoying me forever because commos use the exact same getrag manuals as BMW but there's zero chance getting one onto my old BMWs - because ZF or getrag ie the germans, don't believe in separate bellhousings.

If you want trans upgrades forget the germans.

E: I miss the old days when you could just bolt on a bell housing onto a celica 5spd etc

[oldel]

Spoke too soon, can already (for $500) get an adapter plate to throw a 8spd zf behind one of my 1990s bmws
https://pmcmotorsport.eu/product-eng...-Vertical.html

Getting it to fit in the tunnel and to even work is another issue entirely as stated by others.

[wodahs]

im sorting an aode 4 speed od trans for a big block bell pattern and JW ultra bell supplies one
the aode is all one piece including bell and you cur this off and their kit is bolt on all instructions provided
maybe they do one for your situation too
the only thing i have to change to accept the mod is a smaller dia torque converter to suit the bell

https://racewithjw.com/product-categ...ra-components/

cheers

[M&Ms]

A video for those interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0BZ...ist=WL&index=7

And from experience moving up from a ZF6 to a ZF8, it is a massive leap. They are tuned to be almost as aggressive as a DSG on upshifts in the Raciest drive mode. More gears also = closer gearing = more time in powerband = much more response. 7th and 8th only come into play at 110km/h cruising anyway.

[lumen8]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

On car Forums there always talk and speculation about upgrading engines.
fitting a Coyote is a popular one, but the cost and complexity often rules it out.

What about a trans upgrade there are a few used ZF 8 speeds from Jeeps & BMWs etc available now. and would cost much less than an engine upgrade

I think its still easier to add hp, then you dont need the gear as much, or at all, which is why the aftermarket doesnt seem to be making many controllers for newer boxes... and the 2, 3 and 4 speeds get all the attention still.

Not to mention the cost.. im on another forum with a couple of trans gurus including one who developed one of the first transbrakes (and sells one of the best brakes out there today) and he still runs a transmission shop, and they say the cost of rebuilding the new stuff is very high at the moment.

Ford however is selling an ECU to run the 7.3 and 10 speed auto.

Cant see the factory ECU of a car with less gears from the factory running a newer box with more gears by the way, not without custom operating software created.

Youd need to flash a manual gearbox program in and run a stand alone transmission controller, that would be the most viable option.

There are stand alone controllers for 4l80e's , they can also be converted to 6 speeds by activating the over drive in every gear (1st, 1st OD, 2nd, 2nd OD, 3rd, 3rd OD)

More gears are beneficial for less hp/torque vehicles, the more power you have the less beneficial it is, and starts going backwards in the real world due to wheelspin as hp increases unless you have a good traction control system in place... and when traction control is limiting power... well less gear would be just as quick.

High stall converters with lock up do wonders also which is probably another reason multi speed controllers havent taken off. You get the best of both worlds with those and theyre quite common now for the Ford and GM overdrive transmissions... they will also keep the rpms high when youre on it, but provide the economy and low rpms when cruising... and the AOD and GM boxes are waaaay less expensive to buy and maintain/rebuild.

[lumen8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I imagine we would have been having the same discussions 30 years ago about how complex 4L60E/4L80E were with their electronics compared to TH700/TH400 autos at the time being mechanically controlled.

Now we're having the same discussions about how complex ZF6/8/10 are compared to early 4sp electronically controlled autos

GM seems to really support their product in the aftermarket, you can buy their new engines and transmissions with control packages for retrofit into older cars, Ford seems to lag a little behind with supporting their product in the aftermarket, they do release them eventually but it's not promoted as heavily.

There are a few threads on the yank forums im on pondering these new boxes, and those places are full of can do guys more than cant do, however discussion often comes back to the cost of rebuilding the newer boxes making them not such a desirable choice versus the most popular 3 and 4 speeds... and those comments come from the transmission guys themselves.

Another issue is that if the engine and transmission controller arent in synch, (ie the car isnt a factory multi speed auto)... power cant be momentarily reduced on shifts and that will kill some of the multi speed boxes behind powerful/modified engines.

This isnt a problem with the 4l80e because with a few mods they hold 1000hp plus easily and full power on shifts.

I dont think people are afraid of the complexity of the multi speed boxes, as people are used to the older electronic trans from GM and Ford now.... theyre afraid of the rebuild costs.

In terms of controllers if you can make one for a 4l60/80e you can do it for the other ones, but because of the cost of the boxes, and the ease of power adding to engines these days, there doesnt seem to be a huge demand yet, at least in the places i look... the US based mainstream aftermarket performance companies.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I imagine we would have been having the same discussions 30 years ago about how complex 4L60E/4L80E were with their electronics compared to TH700/TH400 autos at the time being mechanically controlled.

1st gen "electronics" were limited, and besides the 4 speeds were relatively straight-forward. The box didn't "care" if you put it in a different car.

With an 8-speed box, it's pointless unless you can reprogram the box to suit your engine and car.
But the big challenge now seems to be the level of integration, particularly with traction control and stability control.

People love transplanting Barras into older cars, so I imagine those computers are relatively independent. You can drop the Barra in and it doesn't care that it's nolonger in an FG.
But with more modern cars, without full integration and feedback with all the systems, the engine and tranny either won't run, or go into limp mode.

Modern traction control seems to be the biggest issue, with all the sensors.
Again, simpler systems you could just turn the TC off, so running it without TC shouldn't be an issue, but modern systems are never really completely off.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by oldel

Sorry to be a downer but ZFs don't use bell housings - it's integral to the box body. Any sort of adapter added onto the front would mean a longer shaft or or maybe grinding off and alloy welding on, or something as serious?
It's been annoying me forever because commos use the exact same getrag manuals as BMW but there's zero chance getting one onto my old BMWs - because ZF or getrag ie the germans, don't believe in separate bellhousings.

If you want trans upgrades forget the germans.

E: I miss the old days when you could just bolt on a bell housing onto a celica 5spd etc

years ago I fitted a Celica 5 speed to an escort with 2L mods to a Cortina bell housing and the spigot shaft after that it wasn't too hard to fit, of course no electronics involved.

PS saw a Jeep 8 speed advertised it looked to have a separate bell housing

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by M&Ms

A video for those interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0BZ...ist=WL&index=7

And from experience moving up from a ZF6 to a ZF8, it is a massive leap. They are tuned to be almost as aggressive as a DSG on upshifts in the Raciest drive mode. More gears also = closer gearing = more time in powerband = much more response. 7th and 8th only come into play at 110km/h cruising anyway.

Love that guys Videos.

when I jump in my Territory after our BMW, its the gear changes that I miss the most.
The ZF8 really is that good, and from that video it shows how many cars have them.
Interesting new BMWs haven't transitioned to the 10 speed

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by lumen8

There are a few threads on the yank forums im on pondering these new boxes, and those places are full of can do guys more than cant do, however discussion often comes back to the cost of rebuilding the newer boxes making them not such a desirable choice versus the most popular 3 and 4 speeds... and those comments come from the transmission guys themselves.

Another issue is that if the engine and transmission controller arent in synch, (ie the car isnt a factory multi speed auto)... power cant be momentarily reduced on shifts and that will kill some of the multi speed boxes behind powerful/modified engines.

This isnt a problem with the 4l80e because with a few mods they hold 1000hp plus easily and full power on shifts.

I dont think people are afraid of the complexity of the multi speed boxes, as people are used to the older electronic trans from GM and Ford now.... theyre afraid of the rebuild costs.

In terms of controllers if you can make one for a 4l60/80e you can do it for the other ones, but because of the cost of the boxes, and the ease of power adding to engines these days, there doesnt seem to be a huge demand yet, at least in the places i look... the US based mainstream aftermarket performance companies.

They do 'connect and cruise' packages which come with the factory GM control packages - this one suits their 8L90E box (8 speed)

https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/p...SLT18L90E.html

[lumen8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

They do 'connect and cruise' packages which come with the factory GM control packages - this one suits their 8L90E box (8 speed)

https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/p...SLT18L90E.html

Sure but I havent seen a stand alone transmission controller as far as I know...like they have for the 4l80e and 60e, so you can run one behind any engine. Maybe they are out there, I just havent seen one.

What you linked to is for running the 8 speed with an LT1 engine.

Those controllers for engine and trans are pretty much the same ECU as whats in the production cars, which can be tuned with HP tuners... GM turns the stuff not required or wanted off for these controllers ( like VATS for example) ... which is what someone at home can do with LS/LT computers taken from late model cars to install into other cars.. when they have the software (HP tuners or equivalent)

It might be possible to put those GM ECU's and the sensors destined for an LT1 engine onto another engine just to be able to run the transmission behind it.. but things start getting tricky as the LT is direct injection, one would have to turn off a lot of fault codes and checks and get creative, if its even possible.

I know you can turn off codes and whack a carby straight onto an LS1 car and it will run right with the ECU still doing the spark and transmission, but I havent messed with LT1's to see what is possible because we didnt get those here in numbers, other than the odd import thats been converted.

Ive seen GM 411 (LS1) PCMs adapted to windsors, and then they will run a 4l60e and 80e.. whether that can be done with the newer LT1 ECUs, to run a different engine, i havent seen anyone do it yet.

Ive even seen 454 chevys and 440 mopars running the GM 411 PCM and converted to efi. They add the GM cam and crank sensor to the other engines, and the coil packs. Those too can then run a 4l80e (or a 4l60e if you like breaking things )

[oldel]

Originally Posted by lumen8

Sure but I havent seen a stand alone transmission controller as far as I know

I've heard of a couple in europe, like this one that's in poland.
https://htg-tuning.com/gcu/

[lumen8]

Originally Posted by oldel

I've heard of a couple in europe, like this one that's in poland.
https://htg-tuning.com/gcu/

If it works like they say then its an answer to the OPs question.

It would be easier to do use this with a late model vehicle that has a manual gearbox, or flash a manual tune into it or swap to a manual ecu (if an auto), if said vehicle came with a manual option.

Then the car thinks it has a manual gearbox, and that aftermarket computer can run the transmission. Keeping the two separate is much easier than the other way around.

Kind of the same as running older race autos in late model cars...change the tune to a manual file, and the transmission works standalone without freaking out the cars tune and the engine behaviour. But in the case of the 8 speed another ECU will run that.

[Vesper Martini]

Yeah spotted the HTG GCU
not sure where to source one but there's one on ebay for 2 grand - seems a lot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIY_fRBV_Sg

[Vesper Martini]

Theres a lot of youtube clips using the HTG & ZF8

an MX5 even has the BMW shifter, look how well it shifts!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJdpzyEKY1Q

[Vesper Martini]

Nissan Patrol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEo0ZQFk918

[lumen8]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Yeah spotted the HTG GCU
not sure where to source one but there's one on ebay for 2 grand - seems a lot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIY_fRBV_Sg

The link oldel posted has an add to cart at the bottom, 1000 euro.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by M&Ms

A video for those interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0BZ...ist=WL&index=7

And from experience moving up from a ZF6 to a ZF8, it is a massive leap. They are tuned to be almost as aggressive as a DSG on upshifts in the Raciest drive mode. More gears also = closer gearing = more time in powerband = much more response. 7th and 8th only come into play at 110km/h cruising anyway.

Can agree with that, the ZF8 in our XE makes the 147 kW engine feel way more powerful than that. Butter smooth up and down the box, and rev matches on the downshifts via paddles. And unlike most DSG's, it can schlep around at low speeds unobtrusively.



I think an 8 speed is probably the best compromise between having enough gears for economy, and not being a pain by hunting for for the right gear.