Is this true ?

[cram_it_frog]

As far as I'm aware, the older B-series had 700-800g of A/C refrigerant gas, whereas the FG only has 450-500g, and it now works pretty hard to even cool the car down.
I know my XR6T's (2008 model) A/C even on Auto, set to Low – it only barely makes the interior comfortable in the hot weather.


I read this in another form and if it is true it will explain why my friends FGs air con cannot keep up with the heat here in town

[tut0r]

Wouldn't have a clue but my old corolla's aircon worked much better than any falcon I have had.

[Nic302ef]

Yeh FG's only use a small amount of refrigerant, the system has been desighned for it. Any more and the high side pressure will be too high.

Never owned a ba, but had a fg and newer territory and both worked great over here in Perth.

One big problem was when the FG got a front ender and the panel shop did the a/c, they pumped 800G of 134A, and it wouldnt cool at all,

[Silver Ghia]

I've found my dual zone FG aircon set on Auto just as good as how it was in my 2003 BA Ghia on hot (38-40 deg or so) days, but then I don't live in Broken Hill.

The best a/c was in my 1998 AU Fairmont.

[cram_it_frog]

Nic302ef
Hi I come from Perth my ex wife still stays in my home in cannington

I miss going to the beach and it is the first thing I do when we go to Adelaide and beers on rotto on new years eve 20 years ago was like in heven


love and miss the place

It is a great place to live but the heat compared to Perth is totally different it is very dry heat and 45 is like putting your head into a oven

[XR Martin]

I reckon late model cars are hotter inside due to all the black interior, larger dash, and steeper angled front and rear glass.

But I do think A/C performance is quite variable aswell, ive been in plenty of cars and even ones of the same make and models can be quite different.

[chookaradley]

The quantity of refrigerant has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the A/C. There's been a fair bit of criticism of the system in the early FG's. The system was almost entirely overhauled for the mark 2 FG/SZ Territory. There doesn't seem to be any more complaints

[uniacidz]

ED Falcon was ok
EL Xr6 abysmal

Old flatmates Hyundai Accent 2001 best ever air con

Mums 2006 Subaru Outback is fantastic

My current Commodore new genuine compressor is great to fantastic but being a black car in gridlock will make it suffer until it gets some more airflow to it






Sent via HTC Velocity + [HolicsROM v1.3] [SWEEP2WAKE]

[cram_it_frog]

The big front windscreen really does help in making the cars much hotter

thanks for the feed back

[ford man xf]

The E series Falcons never really impressed me with their aircon, but my BA XR8 aircon is a ripper, it gets super cold really quick to the point I switch it off because it's just so cold.

[Bluehoon]

BA/F had a bigger condenser and compressor compared to FG.
Hence the smaller gas charge of the FG..

Yes it was overhauled and fixed in FG Mark II as the aircon performance of a FG is backwards from BA/F.

Two things to help FG;

1) Outside temp sensor in the near side mirror - common problem
2) Blow out your radiator core and ocondenser, full of bugs and dirt etc. It will make a big difference.


Cheers

[mik]

the air con bloke gassed up my au last year and it was crap......... normally very good, i took it straight back to him, he had over filled it ....... apparently over charging them = not good, all good now..

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by uniacidz

ED Falcon was ok
EL Xr6 abysmal

Old flatmates Hyundai Accent 2001 best ever air con

Mums 2006 Subaru Outback is fantastic

My ED was freezing, one of the best ive ever been in.
EL is not that great but its 17 years old now everything all still original.

[Binny]

Do FGs have cabin/pollen filters in them?
I had an Aurion for a while and the aircon struggled which was a surprise as the Denso systems in Toyotas have always been really good.
Then I discovered it had a pollen filter which was filthy, even had leaves sitting on top of it.
Nearly blew my head off when I turned it on after changing the filter.

BTW the A/C in my Mondeo is crap too. Doesn't handle this Brisbane heat and humidity very well at all. From what I hear its a common issue with them.

[commodorenutt]

Pollen filter isn't standard, but can be fitted in place of the wire screen that all BA-FG have.

I had a 2009 FG for a while that had really crap air - took a good 20 minutes to get comfortable after work on a hot day. My 2011 (pre mark 2, but got the aircon update) is significantly better - within about 5 minutes I can put the windows up.

Both cars were untouched (owned from new) the '09 was sensation blue, the '11 is Vanish, so it couldn't be the difference between say a silver car vs a black car.

I commented about the A/C to some prodrive guys that I used to deal with (working relationship) and they told me the extent of the update, and from memory it was around March 2011 when it occurred.

[chookaradley]

Colour makes a huge difference. My SRT is white. The windows are double glazed and tinted, and I always use a sunshade on the windscreen when parked. The difference btw it and my previous FG XR6t in Ego is just massive.

[russellw]

FG-X introduces another new system and it is NOT compatible with either FG or BF type systems which, in turn, are not compatible with BA ones although some items can be carried over.

It's going to make replacing them a nightmare in the future.

Cheers
Russ

[commodorenutt]

Originally Posted by russellw

It's going to make replacing them a nightmare in the future.

It's going to be even harder for 2011 FGs - I found out early on that my 8/11has the same system as the FG2 (released several months later) confirmed by the label on the compressor, and the changes to the pipes.

[mik]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

My ED was freezing, one of the best ive ever been in.
EL is not that great but its 17 years old now everything all still original.

yeah some of the oldies had amazing ac`s, one of my old work mates had an ea wagon, the air con was so cold it would blow ice out of the vents.

[xr6tjet]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

I've found my dual zone FG aircon set on Auto just as good as how it was in my 2003 BA Ghia on hot (38-40 deg or so) days, but then I don't live in Broken Hill.

The best a/c was in my 1998 AU Fairmont.

1+ on this one. best aircon I've felt is in my AU fairmont. Only been topped up once since factory.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

My ED was freezing, one of the best ive ever been in.
EL is not that great but its 17 years old now everything all still original.

Originally Posted by mik

yeah some of the oldies had amazing ac`s, one of my old work mates had an ea wagon, the air con was so cold it would blow ice out of the vents.

1994 and before (such as ED and lower) used R12 which seemed to cool much better than what its replacement R134a does, which is why the older cars would blow damn cold air out the vents.

Though there is a drop in R12 and R134a replacement, called Hychill Minus 30:

http://archive.hychill.com.au/pdf/hcm_e.pdf

Its a hydrocarbon refrigerant, and it cools really well, but it is flammable.

If you're going to gas up a car with it, the rule is 30% of the original R12/134a capacity, for example I put 180 grams of it in my Focus and I got this out the vents:







I pulled 540g of r134a out of it, its supposed to hold 600g, so its either been undercharged from factory or slowly losing refrigerant through pipes or a very slow leak but even since it was new it would only get down to about 6 degrees out the vents on a 25 degree day, and on your 35-40 degree days only 11-17 degrees.

That 1.6 degrees out the vents was at idle in the shop, and I've had it down to 0.7 degrees while driving, go figure.

There is concern about it being flammable but at the end of the day its 180 grams of flammable gas. How many times do you see E series with leaky LPG mixer rings come into the shop?

I've only ever seen one car with a big leak in the evaporator under the dash, and even if it did leak out would it be enough to actually ignite if you were smoking in the car, or a spark from the heater fan brushes?

There is a massive scare campaign on it, about how its going to kill everyone and your first born but I've used it in four of my cars, no worries.

[cram_it_frog]

Big damo thank s i used to work as a delivery driver when I was in my 20s for Ducan Motors in Perth and I had to go get one of the old type gas bottle s refilled and I picked it up wrong way freezing cold

that is great information thanks so much

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by russellw

image

FG-X introduces another new system and it is NOT compatible with either FG or BF type systems which, in turn, are not compatible with BA ones although some items can be carried over.

It's going to make replacing them a nightmare in the future.

Cheers
Russ

Hey Russ,

Out of curiosity can you show the WS/WT/WZ Fiesta A/C differences? Because the German WS Fiesta A/C is crap compared to the Thailand WT and I'm interested in finding out the differences.

[commodorenutt]

I do agree with you Damo, and most of these gasses are easily detected by the human nose, even in small quantities.

Very few cars have an evaporator fail. It's usually a leaky joint in the engine bay, compressor seals, or accident damage. Sure, there's a good chance of a condensor leaking it out in a prang, but there's not enough volume of oxygen in the system for it to "explode" internally and blow bits of evap core through the car like the scaremongers claim.....

However, I have had a couple of XD-XF era cars that have had leaky evap cores. You'd soon pick it up from the smell, and it's not like the leak is sudden - they all went as a slow leak over time. I'd be concerned about residual system pressure slowly filling the car up with 45-50g of gas over time, and then the spark from a door switch igniting it, but then you'd have to have the ideal mixture to cause an explosion, and there's simply not enough gas in the system to manage that, when you consider the volume of the car's interior.

The only thing I don't like about these substitute gasses is the blends - they can lose one part of the blend before other parts, causing issue when you top them up.


The poor performance from modern systems isn't entirely the fault of the gas - most of the problem is caused by manufacturers making cheaper & cheaper systems, and wanting to use less power to turn the compressor.

I've rebuilt several 80s Brock commodore aircon systems for myself & others, and with the right TX valve, and a larger condensor fan, their performance running R134a is equal to the old R12 systems - in 2 cases I have achieved lower vent temps than the specs in the service manuals, and had to increase the evap core thermostat (electric clutch cut off) setting to prevent freezing of the evap core.
The specs on R134a are much closer to R12 than some of the so called 'drop in' alternatives.

They were just made better in the old days, when things were made locally, and for a reasonable budget. They had more headroom, and could cope with the required load. Not like the imported cheap-*** rubbish they feed us these days, that is already working on it's limit on a barely warm day.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

1994 and before (such as ED and lower) used R12 which seemed to cool much better than what its replacement R134a does, which is why the older cars would blow damn cold air out the vents.

Though there is a drop in R12 and R134a replacement, called Hychill Minus 30:

http://archive.hychill.com.au/pdf/hcm_e.pdf

Its a hydrocarbon refrigerant, and it cools really well, but it is flammable.

If you're going to gas up a car with it, the rule is 30% of the original R12/134a capacity, for example I put 180 grams of it in my Focus and I got this out the vents:

image

image

image

I pulled 540g of r134a out of it, its supposed to hold 600g, so its either been undercharged from factory or slowly losing refrigerant through pipes or a very slow leak but even since it was new it would only get down to about 6 degrees out the vents on a 25 degree day, and on your 35-40 degree days only 11-17 degrees.

That 1.6 degrees out the vents was at idle in the shop, and I've had it down to 0.7 degrees while driving, go figure.

There is concern about it being flammable but at the end of the day its 180 grams of flammable gas. How many times do you see E series with leaky LPG mixer rings come into the shop?

I've only ever seen one car with a big leak in the evaporator under the dash, and even if it did leak out would it be enough to actually ignite if you were smoking in the car, or a spark from the heater fan brushes?

There is a massive scare campaign on it, about how its going to kill everyone and your first born but I've used it in four of my cars, no worries.

Nice job Big Damo , my young brother has a heap of old cars, some he just wants to top up the ac's,
only a couple of days ago he was looking to buy the gear for ac recharging, or topping up, he's talking about using either lpg BBQ gas or the butane/propane in the can that you use to charge up your Ciggy lighter or gas tools, ie portasol etc.
he's hoping for it to be cheaper to get all the ac's working and that they will be cooler, it will be interesting to see how he goes.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

1994 and before (such as ED and lower) used R12 which seemed to cool much better than what its replacement R134a does, which is why the older cars would blow damn cold air out the vents.

EDs actually had R134a, the change over happened sometime in 1992 I think? The early EBIIs had R12 and the later ones were CFC free from memory.

[Jastel]

I have never had a car that takes what the book says...start about 150grams under and add in 50's until it works right via gauges and temps.
FG's are very fussy IME.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by commodorenutt

I do agree with you Damo, and most of these gasses are easily detected by the human nose, even in small quantities.

Very few cars have an evaporator fail. It's usually a leaky joint in the engine bay, compressor seals, or accident damage. Sure, there's a good chance of a condensor leaking it out in a prang, but there's not enough volume of oxygen in the system for it to "explode" internally and blow bits of evap core through the car like the scaremongers claim.....

However, I have had a couple of XD-XF era cars that have had leaky evap cores. You'd soon pick it up from the smell, and it's not like the leak is sudden - they all went as a slow leak over time. I'd be concerned about residual system pressure slowly filling the car up with 45-50g of gas over time, and then the spark from a door switch igniting it, but then you'd have to have the ideal mixture to cause an explosion, and there's simply not enough gas in the system to manage that, when you consider the volume of the car's interior.

The only thing I don't like about these substitute gasses is the blends - they can lose one part of the blend before other parts, causing issue when you top them up.


The poor performance from modern systems isn't entirely the fault of the gas - most of the problem is caused by manufacturers making cheaper & cheaper systems, and wanting to use less power to turn the compressor.

I've rebuilt several 80s Brock commodore aircon systems for myself & others, and with the right TX valve, and a larger condensor fan, their performance running R134a is equal to the old R12 systems - in 2 cases I have achieved lower vent temps than the specs in the service manuals, and had to increase the evap core thermostat (electric clutch cut off) setting to prevent freezing of the evap core.
The specs on R134a are much closer to R12 than some of the so called 'drop in' alternatives.

They were just made better in the old days, when things were made locally, and for a reasonable budget. They had more headroom, and could cope with the required load. Not like the imported cheap-*** rubbish they feed us these days, that is already working on it's limit on a barely warm day.

We retrofitted a 1980s Mitsubishi Cordia with r134a and damn it got cold, it took like 800g of r134a.

It seems the 1980s/1990s stuff did a damn good job of cooling down cars, well designed systems I guess, like you say everyone wants to do less and less, cheap and everything is this will do.

Originally Posted by mik

Nice job Big Damo , my young brother has a heap of old cars, some he just wants to top up the ac's,
only a couple of days ago he was looking to buy the gear for ac recharging, or topping up, he's talking about using either lpg BBQ gas or the butane/propane in the can that you use to charge up your Ciggy lighter or gas tools, ie portasol etc.
he's hoping for it to be cheaper to get all the ac's working and that they will be cooler, it will be interesting to see how he goes.

No top up on the A/C it legally has to pull the gas out of the system, vac it down and recharge it, also I'm not sure if a retailer will sell you the equipment as you may require the A/C license to buy it(?)

Plus by the time you buy a set of manifold guages, lines, vacuum pump, scales and reclaim bottle you're up to $1000.

You might be able to get the gear through ebay I reckon without hassle.

You can buy Hychil Minus 30 from Bursons without a refrigeration license as its not regulated like r134a is, you might be better off finding an auto electrical shop which does A/C and has no issues with using hydrocarbon refrigerants.

Especially if you've got older cars meant for R12, because its a little bit of a pain in the *** to retrofit r134a properly, as you need to change the oil and fittings at the minimum (really you're supposed to change reciever drier when ever you open the system and lines cause R12/r134a lines are different as well).

For the 4.5KG cylinder it cost me like $337.50 or something from Bursons though a mates trade account, plus $130 core charge for the bottle, I'm not sure what it would be at retail.

When you think about it though, an EL Falcon only takes 300g of the stuff and it cools damn cold, so it'll last ages.

I'd rather just drop in Hychill than retrofit r134a but I'm pretty lazy and hydrocarbon refrigerants cool well.

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

EDs actually had R134a, the change over happened sometime in 1992 I think? The early EBIIs had R12 and the later ones were CFC free from memory.

Fair enough, I thought it was 1994, but there you go you learn something new every day.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

We retrofitted a 1980s Mitsubishi Cordia with r134a and damn it got cold, it took like 800g of r134a.

It seems the 1980s/1990s stuff did a damn good job of cooling down cars, well designed systems I guess, like you say everyone wants to do less and less, cheap and everything is this will do.



No top up on the A/C it legally has to pull the gas out of the system, vac it down and recharge it, also I'm not sure if a retailer will sell you the equipment as you may require the A/C license to buy it(?)

Plus by the time you buy a set of manifold guages, lines, vacuum pump, scales and reclaim bottle you're up to $1000.

You might be able to get the gear through ebay I reckon without hassle.

You can buy Hychil Minus 30 from Bursons without a refrigeration license as its not regulated like r134a is, you might be better off finding an auto electrical shop which does A/C and has no issues with using hydrocarbon refrigerants.

Especially if you've got older cars meant for R12, because its a little bit of a pain in the *** to retrofit r134a properly, as you need to change the oil and fittings at the minimum (really you're supposed to change reciever drier when ever you open the system and lines cause R12/r134a lines are different as well).

For the 4.5KG cylinder it cost me like $337.50 or something from Bursons though a mates trade account, plus $130 core charge for the bottle, I'm not sure what it would be at retail.

When you think about it though, an EL Falcon only takes 300g of the stuff and it cools damn cold, so it'll last ages.

I'd rather just drop in Hychill than retrofit r134a but I'm pretty lazy and hydrocarbon refrigerants cool well.



Fair enough, I thought it was 1994, but there you go you learn something new every day.

Thanks Big Damo, good to know mate.

[2011G6E]

"Only in America"...saw this online some years back, then saw it ourselves in Walmart...


Illegal here of course...can't have the public simply and cheaply doing stuff themselves at home now can we...