P platers in performance cars

[flappist]

I was talking with my niece who is a P plater about cars and she wanted to have a drive of my datto. Unfortunately it is on the banned list so she can't which brought up two points.

1) If she is not capable of controlling it now will she magically become a better driver in May when she gets her open license.
2) If I am sitting in the left seat advising her on how to keep it under 200km/h in a school zone while not spinning the wheels is that not better then her finding out for herself the hard way in 6 months.

In aviation after gaining a type endorsement (being tested on a particular complex aircraft type) it is not unusal for a period of ICUS (in command under supervision) flying to be done with a senior pilot on board just to ensure the junior pilot has a good understanding of what they are doing.

So the question:

Should P plate drivers be allowed to drive "banned" vehicles provided there is an older, more mature driver in the passenger seat making sure silly things are not attempted?

Possibly the senior driver would have some minor qualification even something as low as 30 years plus 10 years of open license or whatever.

Maybe a blue or orange P plate shown when in ICUS.

What are the thoughts?

[geckoGT]

Not a crazy idea.

Enforcement will be a major issue and I think for it to be considered there would have to be a curfew.

[creative]

The biggest question I have is why can my learner girlfriend (take that how you will ) drive my xr8 on her L's, passes her test the next day and can no longer drive it.



Stupid if you ask me!

[FrogInASock]

When I was younger (and just as silly as now) a performance car was an asthmatic 253 VH Commodore with an earthshaking 100 kilowatts.

For less cash (taking into account inflation and purchasing power) an 18 year old stereotyped hoon can buy a BA Falcon with nearly double the power, or even a twin turbo Jap import, and go an hunt HSV's all day long. Right until the hoon-mobile ploughs into a lamp post, another car, or a child.

It's true that cars don't kill - people kill, but a powerful car mixed with an inexperienced and ten-feet-tall-and-bullet-proof driver can be a serious recipe for disaster. It is for this reason, motorcycles have been restricted since about forever. Sensible restrictions on cars should have been introduced long before they were.

[flappist]

The whole idea is that the 10 foot tall bullet proof driver has an older wiser head next to them preventing them from doing silly stuff while allowing them to experience the difference between a buzz box an something with more performance.

The senior driver would not just be "one of the mates" and would have some responsibility.

If a P plater cheats then they will just be another unlicensed driver incuring all the incumbent penalties or even if they decide to be clever and have another P plater pretend to be senior BOTH of them are treated as driving unlicensed.

As far as enforcement maybe the blue or orange or whatever P plates will make things obvious.

In reality if you are inclined to do silly things in a car then waiting 3 years will have little effect if on the first day of your opens you jump into a F6/GT/SS/GTS all by yourself and throw it off a corner into a tree because you did not realise just how quickly it accelerated and how long it took to slow down again.

[f1tzy]

I have always thought it was a bit stupid. Say im going on a long drive with my p-plater brother in my ute he can't drive it even though im in the passenger seat and we are just sharing the driving to prevent fatigue. I don't understand why it cant be similar to learners where you have to have an open licenced driver of 2 years minimum and what not in the passenger seat

[Mr Brooksy]

Not a bad idea, but currently the laws for restricted vehicles in NSW at least is a farce. The amount of guys I've met who are able to drive a VE SS or HSV because the wrote a letter is just plain rubbish.

And no offense intended (unless you count yourself as one of cause) but the amount of useless moron drivers who wouldn't know if they are supposed to stop at a red light being able to teach L platers let alone P platers in performance cars scares me. Trained pros or wait til you've got more experience. Patients is a lost virtue...

[FPV GTHO]

I thought you already could drive a restricted vehicle whilst supervised, but i cant find any reference to back it up.

In theory though its not too different from getting your red P's in an automatic and then being automatically qualified to drive manual once you get your green P's.

[05_ENFORCER]

My preferred option is not on your list Flappy.

Young defensive driver education classes instead of computer generated learning tests.

Include high performance vehicle driving, skid pan and horrific accident videos.

Driver education before getting on the road is what it is all about IMO
.

[HenryFordJr]

Oh how things have changed, I had my first V8 at 15 years old lol..

IMO P platers cause enough trouble on the roads without having performance vehicles.

With time comes experience, let them learn how to drive and get a feel for cars in general before strapping them into a V8 or Turbo etc.

[Ford_The_Win]

I don't have a problem with the restrictions personally. The average 6 cylinder family car has more than enough performance for daily duties, and I don't like the idea of testosterone charged, inexperienced young men driving 300kw V8s or turbos, it's a recipe for carnage. There is no way I would put my 18 year old brother behind the wheel of an XR6 without a few years of driving under his belt. 3 years is not a long time to wait, if they really want an XR6 turbo they will still be around when they are off their P's. That being said, there will always be bogans and morons who will wrap Commodores around power poles, there is no getting away from that.

[geckoGT]

Lets keep it on topic, that is about options for educating young drivers about the intricacies of driving high performance cars. Lets not let this morph into another thread discussing the inadequacies of the driver training/testing system in general.

[K10wN]

Considering there is no limitations on performance vehicles for drivers on their L-Plates, what's the difference between being supervised when on your L-Plates when compared to being supervised on yor P-Plates. Do you suddenly get worse when going from your L's to your P's?

P-Plate drivers should be able to drive any vehicle for their class of licence when they are supervised by an open license holder.

Should they be allowed to cruise around with their mates on a friday night in a 300hp car unsupervised? NO!

[kaniSS]

Originally Posted by flappist

The whole idea is that the 10 foot tall bullet proof driver has an older wiser head next to them preventing them from doing silly stuff while allowing them to experience the difference between a buzz box an something with more performance.

The senior driver would not just be "one of the mates" and would have some responsibility.

If a P plater cheats then they will just be another unlicensed driver incuring all the incumbent penalties or even if they decide to be clever and have another P plater pretend to be senior BOTH of them are treated as driving unlicensed.

As far as enforcement maybe the blue or orange or whatever P plates will make things obvious.

In reality if you are inclined to do silly things in a car then waiting 3 years will have little effect if on the first day of your opens you jump into a F6/GT/SS/GTS all by yourself and throw it off a corner into a tree because you did not realise just how quickly it accelerated and how long it took to slow down again.

And to justify the job of the bureaucrat who came up with this ridiculous idea.

[xisled]

Originally Posted by flappist

I was talking with my niece who is a P plater about cars and she wanted to have a drive of my datto. Unfortunately it is on the banned list so she can't which brought up two points.

1) If she is not capable of controlling it now will she magically become a better driver in May when she gets her open license.
2) If I am sitting in the left seat advising her on how to keep it under 200km/h in a school zone while not spinning the wheels is that not better then her finding out for herself the hard way in 6 months.

In aviation after gaining a type endorsement (being tested on a particular complex aircraft type) it is not unusal for a period of ICUS (in command under supervision) flying to be done with a senior pilot on board just to ensure the junior pilot has a good understanding of what they are doing.

So the question:

Should P plate drivers be allowed to drive "banned" vehicles provided there is an older, more mature driver in the passenger seat making sure silly things are not attempted?

Possibly the senior driver would have some minor qualification even something as low as 30 years plus 10 years of open license or whatever.

Maybe a blue or orange P plate shown when in ICUS.

What are the thoughts?

The whole idea is flawed, p platers will get around it. They will just get one of there mates dad who is a hoon to drive with them, and bang 200ks on the freeway.

[Pete from Port]

I think the reason it's off the agenda once a P licence is issued is because they then become legally responsible for any driving outcome. At an L level the supervisor at least shares the responsibility.
Even in a supervised environment a likely outcome is a crash when doofus decides to surprise supervisor with a demon overtaking manoeuver that aligns overconfidence/inexperience/rocketship/desire to impress and abundance of testosterone into something very nasty.

[Pub247]

Originally Posted by xisled

The whole idea is flawed, p platers will get around it. They will just get one of there mates dad who is a hoon to drive with them, and bang 200ks on the freeway.

As apposed to l platers??? Last week i saw a L plater driving a porsche panamera on the monash. I dont know how people think there is no danger in that compared to p plater who has more experience doing same thing under supervision.

Seriously that porsche is one fast albeit ugly car its practically a supercar its would just as easy to go fast on l plates and crash as p plates.

[NX74205]

Yes.

BUT I firmly believe that advanced driver training should be made a compulsory requirement prior to learners getting their Ps. To drive on the road, they need to know how to maintain control of their car, not just how to operate it from point A to point B. The only way they can do that is to throw them at the deep end - get them on a skid pan and scare the crap out of them, teach them the techniques to maintain control of the vehicle, and if the worst is ever to happen, hopefully their survival instincts will kick in, and they'll know what needs to be done to regain control of the car, or minimise the damage.

I've always thought that P-plate restrictions are ridiculous. Sooner or later, they are going to have to drive big, powerful cars at night on wet roads. You can only wrap them in cotton wool for so long. What happens then? Are we going to see the accident prone age group shift from 18-21 to 22-25?

I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of P-platers are responsible drivers. It's the minority of idiots out there that spoil it for the rest of us who enjoy our cars. Why punish the majority for the acts of a few? What would it take for the lunatics in charge of road safety to realise that restrictions is not the answer, but more education is? Driver training is woefully inadequate in this country. But instead of the government taking responsibility for the problem, they go for the cheap solution: to restrict P-platers from driving certain types of cars.

Idiots will be idiots no matter what car they drive. It's not the car that kills, it's the idiot behind the wheel.

[xisled]

Originally Posted by Pub247

As apposed to l platers??? Last week i saw a L plater driving a porsche panamera on the monash. I dont know how people think there is no danger in that compared to p plater who has more experience doing same thing under supervision.

Seriously that porsche is one fast albeit ugly car its practically a supercar its would just as easy to go fast on l plates and crash as p plates.

Yes but the responsibility falls back onto the person teaching the learner.
A P plater with someone in the passenger seat has all the responsibility.

When someone is teaching a L plater and gets pulled over, the police breath test the driver and the person in the passenger side seat.

When a P plater gets pulled over the only person to get breath tested is the driver.

[xisled]

Originally Posted by NX74205

Yes.

BUT I firmly believe that advanced driver training should be made a compulsory requirement prior to learners getting their Ps. To drive on the road, they need to know how to maintain control of their car, not just how to operate it from point A to point B. The only way they can do that is to throw them at the deep end - get them on a skid pan and scare the crap out of them, teach them the techniques to maintain control of the vehicle, and if the worst is ever to happen, hopefully their survival instincts will kick in, and they'll know what needs to be done to regain control of the car, or minimise the damage.

I've always thought that P-plate restrictions are ridiculous. Sooner or later, they are going to have to drive big, powerful cars at night on wet roads. You can only wrap them in cotton wool for so long. What happens then? Are we going to see the accident prone age group shift from 18-21 to 22-25?

I would hazard a guess that the vast majority of P-platers are responsible drivers. It's the minority of idiots out there that spoil it for the rest of us who enjoy our cars. Why punish the majority for the acts of a few? What would it take for the lunatics in charge of road safety to realise that restrictions is not the answer, but more education is? Driver training is woefully inadequate in this country. But instead of the government taking responsibility for the problem, they go for the cheap solution: to restrict P-platers from driving certain types of cars.

Idiots will be idiots no matter what car they drive. It's not the car that kills, it's the idiot behind the wheel.

Its just not about the idiot drivers on P platers. They are very inexperienced, and evene the most cautious P plater can still get into a bad situation quick. So I agree more driving training needed.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by xisled

The whole idea is flawed, p platers will get around it. They will just get one of there mates dad who is a hoon to drive with them, and bang 200ks on the freeway.

Just wondering in which car this will happen? The P plater can't own it and the "hoon dad" will also lose his license when the 200km event comes to its end. Those who would exploit this will drive anyway.

As far as the "bureacrat" jibe.

It is MY idea and I don't work for any government department. I thought that as this is a car enthusiast forum and most of us believe driving is more than just travelling between two points that the big picture may be more apparant. Unfortunately I am starting to see evidence that chronological age and mental maturity are not necessarily connected.

[TheZHLANE]

I think its a good idea to have a less powerful car as your first car eg. el falcon 6 then after you have been driving it for a while move up to something more powerful, too many kids get their l's or p's and get a pretty powerful car then end up crashing it (wa).

[2.8L Hilux]

Originally Posted by K10wN

Considering there is no limitations on performance vehicles for drivers on their L-Plates, what's the difference between being supervised when on your L-Plates when compared to being supervised on yor P-Plates. Do you suddenly get worse when going from your L's to your P's?

P-Plate drivers should be able to drive any vehicle for their class of licence when they are supervised by an open license holder.

Yes you do "suddenly get worse" when going from your L's to your P's. You are filled with confidence and suddenly believe you are gods gift to driving.

In almost all situations, the only reason why you would take a high powered "restricted" car for a drive is to give it a fang. It doesn't matter if you've got a full licence holder sitting next to you, they've got absolutely no control of the car when things start to go a bit pear shaped. 9 times out of 10 the full licence holder would have been telling you to "give it a bit" in the first place.

When I was on my P's I took a BF FPV GT, a 6.0L SS and a BA XR6 Turbo for a spin on separate occasions. I didn't take them for a drive to see how they handled or how much leg room they had, I took them for a drive to see how quick they went! I had the owners of each of the cars sitting next to me when I was driving them (in their early 40's) and both were telling me to give it a boot full (as you do when someone is driving your V8 / Turbo 6.)

I admit I didn't have enough experience to drive those cars however having a full licence holder sitting next to me didn't stop me from testing how much power they had.

[falconnut]

When i can go for my Fulls this time next year i do not think i am magically going to get better as a driver or car owner just because i can pass a touchscreen test

Originally Posted by 2.8L Hilux

Yes you do "suddenly get worse" when going from your L's to your P's. You are filled with confidence and suddenly believe you are gods gift to driving.

Exactly.

When i got my reds in late 2009 i was in this EXACT mindset.

I also found i was trying to push my driving skills/experience and the car to the limit just because i could.

Why? Because i didnt have someone in the passenger seat guiding me.

Sure its a learning curve driving on own but its no excuse to get into accidents .

Originally Posted by 2.8L Hilux

I admit I didn't have enough experience to drive those cars however having a full licence holder sitting next to me didn't stop me from testing how much power they had.

Heck when i was on my L's i was having trouble handling old 1984/3 Cressida's for a year, also its a massive confidence boost to have someone next to you helping you drive.

Even on my P's its been helpful to have a friend or a parent telling me to pull my head in.

[Ben73]

They should be able too. Maybe the senior driver should also get in trouble if the p plater does stupid stuff.

About 2 months ago me and the girlfriend went somewhere. As alway I drove my hemi because it's nicer then my girlfriends buzz box.
When we were at said location I began to feel sick. But I had to drive the car home since she is on green p's.

I didn't plan on getting sick it just happened. Would of been much more comfortable to relax instead of driving.

[falconnut]

What if your gf was not capable of driving it? You could have just gotten an exemption.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Ben73

They should be able too. Maybe the senior driver should also get in trouble if the p plater does stupid stuff.

About 2 months ago me and the girlfriend went somewhere. As alway I drove my hemi because it's nicer then my girlfriends buzz box.
When we were at said location I began to feel sick. But I had to drive the car home since she is on green p's.

I didn't plan on getting sick it just happened. Would of been much more comfortable to relax instead of driving.

No the criminal code covers that. She would have been ok provided that was the only reason.

[GreenR]

We were on the way home today and I spotted a young female learner driving the VE SS with the whole family in it.

I thought of this exact same thing. How are L plater's allowed to drive V8's but a P plater isn't, even if you have a full license driver with you!

Talk about messed up Vicroad laws.

[xisled]

[QUOTE=plarazza]We were on the way home today and I spotted a young female learner driving the VE SS with the whole family in it.

I thought of this exact same thing. How are L plater's allowed to drive V8's but a P plater isn't, even if you have a full license driver with you!

Talk about messed up Vicroad laws.[/QUOT

It is because the learner is being instructed by a fully licence driver. The driver of a full licence while teaching is still legally responsible for actions of the L plater, while under there supervision.

[GreenR]

^ I realize this which is why I mentioned having a full license driver with you. So then as a P plater the full license person could take responsibility the same way they do for a L plater. But this isn't allowed. Stupid if you ask me.