I want the truth.....about cams

blueoval · 06-01-2009, 06:13 PM

You cant handle the truth!!!! lol

No seriously, Im starting to get frustrated with not being able to choose a cam for my engine.

The reason being is there is always something not right with a particular brand for one reason or another.

Forgive me if I am incorrect but from what I am hearing/seeing:

Wade Cams - dont do cams for AU's and even if they do they are re-grinds.
Waggot Cams - Do a billet grind but wont tell you the specs. Gotta take thei word for it.
JMM - some here think they are too overpriced for what they deliver
Surecams - Are supposed to be good, but their website for grinds isnt working so you cant compare. Plus not many members have used them.
CMS cams - have an AU grind but has secret specs so I have to trust other peoples experiences. They are also re-grinded cams.
Crow Cams - dont deliver on the power they claim and tuning can be a hassle

Am I wrong? Can someone correct me please? IS there a cam out there that people ARE happy with, with proven results, specs and details?

Mods, if this thread is out of line, just delete it.

The Monty · 06-01-2009, 06:22 PM

Surecam's cams are good. OED666 runs one I think, and has run 13.8, AU engine in an ED, manual, tune, intake, cam.

JoesAu · 06-01-2009, 06:48 PM

its all about having a dip, i mean i tried crow cams and completely shatterd the head, my fault, but even when it was going it didnt go great with the new cam.

JoesAu · 06-01-2009, 06:51 PM

Joe from Cms seems like a half decent bloke who not out there to screw people over for business.

b2tf · 06-01-2009, 06:59 PM

CMS get good reviews but why would their grind be such a secret?

Sox · 06-01-2009, 07:10 PM

I've used the JMM DEV3HL and DEV5 cam with fantastic results.
If I had a 3/4 engine to modify I wouldn't hesitate to use them again.

ayeyew · 06-01-2009, 09:01 PM

I have a CMS Stg2 Cam, with 141kw on his dyno, Joe is confident of getting 145kw and over 350Nm
So on a dynodynamics dyno i'd be at around 155

All i can say is awesome stuff so far, she is lacking down low at the moment (as the tune is not complete) but the top end is unreal, just wants to keep going!

He does have a new AU auto grind too, apparently more power and torque and a more stable idle (no put, put, put sound)

I am not aware of any cars with the stg 3 AU grind tho?

Top bloke and his gear delivers top results (After all is said & done i will have gained around 25rwkw and should be running high 14s if i ever decide to take it down to WSID)

qldwagons · 06-01-2009, 09:54 PM

tighe cams in brisbane are worth a try too
http://www.tighecams.com.au/

blueoval · 07-01-2009, 05:42 PM

Thanks again guys for your feedback.

So far it seems as if there are stronger testimonials on the results CMS have produced. Its a shame Joe from CMS couldnt provide some basic specs to compare against other cams.

Crow cams I am hearing mixed results based on people personal experiences. Some have had a dreadful time getting power out of them with no ecu tuning. Others have had excellent results.

I have heard of tighe cams. But when I looked at their catalogue, sadly no grinds to suit AU.

Surecams sound good based on what OED666 has achieved, but again, no online specs to compare.

JMM- some mixed results and mixed opinions of their services. Even mixed opinions of their cams. However Rick's (Sox) achievements with JMM cams has a lot of merit which I will take on board.

A lot to think about.

adrian k · 07-01-2009, 06:51 PM

I had the JMM 3HL cam in my EF XR6. Landed up with 143rwkW in the end. Service was good, helped me out with some low power issues which turned out to be the dyno.

poolkeeper · 07-01-2009, 07:19 PM

Im getting a CMS Stg 2 head and cam package... when I get my auto rebuilt from there.

I havent heard one drama, bad service story from CMS.

Do you really need the specs?

blueoval · 08-01-2009, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D1XR2C

Do you really need the specs?

Personally for me, its good to know for comparisons sake.

I mean a basic power description of the cam characteristics is a minimum on most sites.

**Stav** · 08-01-2009, 08:05 PM

All cams suck...by themselves. A cam change will make your car idle rougher..hunt and generally go sluggish on the street. On dyno days you will win and ice cream..

The bare minimum for any cam is tuning. Once a cam goes in the stock ecu has a fit!! However your mid range and top end will improve. The reason for this is that at idle the map sensor and ego sensor cannot compensate for the reduced vaccumm and so it goes very rich. Once at mid range t he normally rich ecu maps are complemeted by the bigger cam airflow and you see an improvement. If you go fairly big you will need valve springs and guides.

I have seen people make the same mistakes over the years. Sox had headwork that made those cams go harder...my surecam needed headwork too to work properly. OED who I consider a mate..had run 14.2's from memory first with the cam then modified a few other items to reach the 13.8 in a much lighter ed. Maybe he could fill us in on those mods? With the heavier au ford it will be a fair task to match that but most stopped trying.I havent stopped having it as a goal but I am flat out taking care of family and business so the car has taken a back seat as far as mods. I would love to try a bigger stall convertor as 2500 is a bit smallish.

Sox · 08-01-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stav

All cams suck...by themselves. A cam change will make your car idle rougher..hunt and generally go sluggish on the street.

Only if you've chosen the wrong cam or one which is just to radical for road use.
I have done several cam only upgrades with out any issues whatsoever. My AU ute which is for sale has a DEV5 cam and extractors/exhaust. It idles like a pussy cat, has better fuel economy than standard, has no noticeable low down power loss, has more midrange power and a lot more top end power. Would you believe I didn't even clock this one up or fit heavy duty valve springs.
The rest of the engine and ECU is stock standard.

Quote:

On dyno days you will win and ice cream..

The bare minimum for any cam is tuning. Once a cam goes in the stock ecu has a fit!!

Rubbish, only if the wrong cam has been chosen.

Quote:

However your mid range and top end will improve. The reason for this is that at idle the map sensor and ego sensor cannot compensate for the reduced vaccumm and so it goes very rich. Once at mid range t he normally rich ecu maps are complemeted by the bigger cam airflow and you see an improvement. If you go fairly big you will need valve springs and guides.

I have seen people make the same mistakes over the years. Sox had headwork that made those cams go harder...

Only with the DEV5 in my XH. Yes it went better than my AU without headwork, however the difference is only power from 4000rpm onwards. Below that it behaves much the same.

Quote:

my surecam needed headwork too to work properly.

Only because it is a big sucker with a lot of overlap and lift.
No one in their right mind would use a cam like that if the engine is fairly standard.

Choose the correct cam for the application and all is well.

**Stav** · 08-01-2009, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

Only if you've chosen the wrong cam or one which is just to radical for road use.
I have done several cam only upgrades with out any issues whatsoever. My AU ute which is for sale has a DEV5 cam and extractors/exhaust. It idles like a pussy cat, has better fuel economy than standard, has no noticeable low down power loss, has more midrange power and a lot more top end power. Would you believe I didn't even clock this one up or fit heavy duty valve springs.
The rest of the engine and ECU is stock standard.

Rubbish, only if the wrong cam has been chosen.

Only with the DEV5 in my XH. Yes it went better than my AU without headwork, however the difference is only power from 4000rpm onwards. Below that it behaves much the same.

Only because it is a big sucker with a lot of overlap and lift.
No one in their right mind would use a cam like that if the engine is fairly standard.

Choose the correct cam for the application and all is well.

In my opinion and experience... A cam will never be optimal without the right state of tune. The vast majority of cams will need a piggy back or better to make them work very well if at all.

I cant comment on the dev 5 cam but the dev 4 off the shelf gave a signinfcant boost in performance but would stall at idle or when slowing down. Off the mark I was getting owned by manual hiace vans. Once it got going though it went ok. The trick was to get it tuned. It idled well and went even better. 14.7 was the result.

The surecam as with all higher lift cams will benefit from improving the stock heads airflow. The right cam for application depends on what we want from the car and how we go about getting it. Below 4000 rpm the au power was similar to the headworked ute . So therefore it depends on our needs for the power delivery as to how much it benefits each person. Headwork allows the higher lift of the cam to be utilised better to create airflow. Power therefore will be restricted even if the cam is bigger.

The right cam for the application doesnt often seem to do what its supposed to.

The surecam was my choice because I had developed a big curiousity of heads and flow. I wanted something that can create power and was a billet not regrind.This was much easier for the installation. No need to punch out the lifters /shims..etc. Yes it is supposed to be a fair sized cam but not as big as some might think. ANyway ..good to see were still into some debating of ideas..

blueoval · 09-01-2009, 12:04 AM

This is an interesting debate guys. I have respect for both of you in as far as knowledge for power is concerned.

My additional question is, how big is too big on a street driven car?

I know I will have to get an AU edit with custom tune and prefer to do that regardless of what size of cam I choose just so I can get the most out of the cam and engine. Headwork is something plan to do also but later on.

Sox · 09-01-2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stav

In my opinion and experience... A cam will never be optimal without the right state of tune.

Ok, now you're starting to tell the story right. A cam might not be optimal without a tune, however this is a very different statement to what you said earlier, "All cams suck... by themselves", which of course is simply not true.

Quote:

The vast majority of cams will need a piggy back or better to make them work very well if at all.

And this is just rubbish again.
I would actually say the vast majority will not need a piggy back to work quite ok, however they can be improved with a piggy back or similar.

However this in itself mean little, as our engines can be improved substantially with a tune even in standard form. So it's hardly a new cam steering our engines 'out of tune', so to speak.

Quote:

I cant comment on the dev 5 cam but the dev 4 off the shelf gave a signinfcant boost in performance but would stall at idle or when slowing down. Off the mark I was getting owned by manual hiace vans. Once it got going though it went ok. The trick was to get it tuned. It idled well and went even better. 14.7 was the result.

You just don't get it Stav.
The DEV4 was never really intended to go out with out any headwork. That is, C/R increase, ports cleaned up, valve springs, etc.
You really chose the wrong cam, particularly for a daily driven auto barge like the wagon.
A DEV3 or DEV3HL would have been much more suitable at that time.

Quote:

The surecam as with all higher lift cams will benefit from improving the stock heads airflow.

Naturally.

Quote:

The right cam for application depends on what we want from the car and how we go about getting it.

Naturally.

Quote:

Below 4000 rpm the au power was similar to the headworked ute . So therefore it depends on our needs for the power delivery as to how much it benefits each person. Headwork allows the higher lift of the cam to be utilised better to create airflow. Power therefore will be restricted even if the cam is bigger.

Naturally.

Quote:

The right cam for the application doesnt often seem to do what its supposed to.

If you've been honest with your self, it mostly is.

Quote:

The surecam was my choice because I had developed a big curiousity of heads and flow. I wanted something that can create power and was a billet not regrind.This was much easier for the installation. No need to punch out the lifters /shims..etc. Yes it is supposed to be a fair sized cam but not as big as some might think. ANyway ..good to see were still into some debating of ideas..

We're not debating ideas, we're debating some of your statements which are not very well thought out.

**Stav** · 09-01-2009, 09:23 AM

You must have been a monk or teacher in your past life sox

Sox · 09-01-2009, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stav

You must have been a monk or teacher in your past life sox

Yer maybe, now I'm just an argumentative opinionated twat.

blueoval · 09-01-2009, 09:55 AM

haha, some good points there fellas. Thanks for the informed information, both of you.

Rick, you seems to know what your talking about, can you tell me if a cam of the following specs will be ok or over kill for a car like mine thats street driven?

IN. 35/75 290 230 110 .475" 2500
EX.75/35 290 230 .475" 5500
(the 230 is @ 0.75 duration)

Cheers mate

**Stav** · 09-01-2009, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

This is an interesting debate guys. I have respect for both of you in as far as knowledge for power is concerned.

My additional question is, how big is too big on a street driven car?

I know I will have to get an AU edit with custom tune and prefer to do that regardless of what size of cam I choose just so I can get the most out of the cam and engine. Headwork is something plan to do also but later on.

Too big depends on whta you want. The nice thing about fuel injection vs carbie is that you can overcome much of lumpier idle with ecu tuning with a laptop. You can also get good fuel economy with a big cam when tuned. As me and sox have both touched on you hav to be realistic with yourself and what you want from a cam.
If you are happy with a few more killowatts and stock head then the milder profiles will suit you better. The areas affected would be a slightly burblier idle and a few more killowatts from mid to top end range. If you want to further improve that cam a tune will help idle ,midrange and top end farther. Torque will also be better down low to midrange wth a mild cam tuned.
The first cam upgrade which comes to my mind is the au xr6 hp cam . I bought one for 180 dollars a billet. I have seen these typcally produce around 5 to 7 more rwkws than the stocker. That is a mild cam upgrade. You will notice this power on the street driving duties. Your car will be a mid to low 15 second car without a tune .With tune expect low 15's to high 14's.

Bigger cams will typically reduce vaccum at idle and send the ecu into a severe rich state of tune. It will need recalibration to work right.However when you get into a bigger cam you have more scope for power production. ESox with his big au cam could gain more power by headwork for example.

With a manual gearbox you can overcome the drawbacks ove bigger cams but with an auto which locks up at 1500rpm you wont be really happy with a bigger cam.Not even a dev 5.
A higher stall convertor will let you reach the revs at which the cam starts to produce good torque.The result will be a quicker car off the mark.The inclusion of better diff gears will help.

ANyway Id better start organising some work ..im off.

blueoval · 09-01-2009, 10:06 AM

Thanks Stav, what you say is very true and is something Im considering if I choose to get that stick.

The things I was planning to get to optimise the use of a stick like that are:

CAPA AU custom edit
double valve springs & retainers
2500rpm hi stall
trans cooler

What I already have is 3.45LSD, small considering the size of that cam, but I think it still be ok.

What I want is to reach about the 160-170rwkw mark with as much torque as possible too.

Car will be street driven, with occasional spirited driving. As far as note is concerned, Id like it to sound a bit lumpy too.

What else am I missing?

**Polyal** · 09-01-2009, 10:10 AM

Are you sure wade dont do AU's, that would surprise me greatly. Pretty sure they even do the AU/EL hybrid.

I had a wade 1636 as I mentioned before, it was fantastic. What is the issue with a regrind?

blueoval · 09-01-2009, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Are you sure wade dont do AU's, that would surprise me greatly. Pretty sure they even do the AU/EL hybrid.

I had a wade 1636 as I mentioned before, it was fantastic. What is the issue with a regrind?

Yeah Im sure mate. I asked the wade dude and got a blunt reply of NO.

Sox · 09-01-2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

haha, some good points there fellas. Thanks for the informed information, both of you.

Rick, you seems to know what your talking about, can you tell me if a cam of the following specs will be ok or over kill for a car like mine thats street driven?

IN. 35/75 290 230 110 .475" 2500
EX.75/35 290 230 .475" 5500
(the 230 is @ 0.75 duration)

Cheers mate

That doesnt seem to big at all, from memory a DEV3 has similar numbers.

Sox · 09-01-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stav

Too big depends on whta you want. The nice thing about fuel injection vs carbie is that you can overcome much of lumpier idle with ecu tuning with a laptop. You can also get good fuel economy with a big cam when tuned. As me and sox have both touched on you hav to be realistic with yourself and what you want from a cam.
If you are happy with a few more killowatts and stock head then the milder profiles will suit you better. The areas affected would be a slightly burblier idle and a few more killowatts from mid to top end range. If you want to further improve that cam a tune will help idle ,midrange and top end farther. Torque will also be better down low to midrange wth a mild cam tuned.
The first cam upgrade which comes to my mind is the au xr6 hp cam . I bought one for 180 dollars a billet. I have seen these typcally produce around 5 to 7 more rwkws than the stocker. That is a mild cam upgrade. You will notice this power on the street driving duties. Your car will be a mid to low 15 second car without a tune .With tune expect low 15's to high 14's.

Bigger cams will typically reduce vaccum at idle and send the ecu into a severe rich state of tune. It will need recalibration to work right.However when you get into a bigger cam you have more scope for power production. ESox with his big au cam could gain more power by headwork for example.

With a manual gearbox you can overcome the drawbacks ove bigger cams but with an auto which locks up at 1500rpm you wont be really happy with a bigger cam.Not even a dev 5.
A higher stall convertor will let you reach the revs at which the cam starts to produce good torque.The result will be a quicker car off the mark.The inclusion of better diff gears will help.

Finally you've come to your senses again......

Sox · 09-01-2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

Thanks Stav, what you say is very true and is something Im considering if I choose to get that stick.

The things I was planning to get to optimise the use of a stick like that are:

CAPA AU custom edit
double valve springs & retainers
2500rpm hi stall
trans cooler

What I already have is 3.45LSD, small considering the size of that cam, but I think it still be ok.

What I want is to reach about the 160-170rwkw mark with as much torque as possible too.

Car will be street driven, with occasional spirited driving. As far as note is concerned, Id like it to sound a bit lumpy too.

What else am I missing?

I would grab something bigger than what you mentioned in a previous post. If it were me, I'd throw in a DEV4 or 5 cam (or comparable).

At that power level I would also look at head work.

blueoval · 09-01-2009, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sox

I would grab something bigger than what you mentioned in a previous post. If it were me, I'd throw in a DEV4 or 5 cam (or comparable).

At that power level I would also look at head work.

Thanks Rick

Bigger??? Wow, I have heard the cam I mentioned before in a car and it sounded lumpy as and went fairly hard. I loved the way it loped over.

As far as headwork is concerned, are you meaning mild port job or something more involved?

Do the JMM dev 4-5 cams respond well to custom tuning?

Sox · 09-01-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

Thanks Rick

Bigger??? Wow, I have heard the cam I mentioned before in a car and it sounded lumpy as and went fairly hard. I loved the way it loped over.

As far as headwork is concerned, are you meaning mild port job or something more involved?

Do the JMM dev 4-5 cams respond well to custom tuning?

The duration is fairly big (rough idle), but the lift isn't all that big.
Porting, de-dagging, open up the throats a little, etc. Nothing radical.
The JMM cams work well without any tuning, however like all of them will improve with.

Having said that, my XH couldn't be improved on as far as mixtures go with the DEV5 package.
Had a standard XR ECU.
Was on a few dynos and made 175rwkw and the operators said the tune is very very good.

broken_suave · 09-01-2009, 12:40 PM

I had been interested in getting an XR6 HP cam a while ago, but was told it wouldnt make any difference. Is there anyone out there who can clear this up? I'm really not looking for a big aftermarket cam, just a slight improvement on the current.

I actually fairly happy with the mid and top end, I just want a tad more in the low to mid range. At the moment, at about 2000-2200rpm it jumps forward. I usually have quite a sedate driving style, so I dont have much need for more top end. However I gave it a boot two nights ago, and it just reminded me how much there is up top. It really pulls hard above 4000rpm. Slight bumps and the rear wheels are slipping ever so slightly due to the acceleration, even at +100km/h.

What I want is just a tad more 'sportiness' in the low-mid range. Even if the power doesnt increase overall, if the engine characteristics become more 'eager' I'll be happy.