Do You Trust The Government?

[AWD Chaser]

After the Kovco case hit the media, a dispute arised over the authanticity of the cliam that Pte Kovco shot himself while cleaing his gun. The defence minister then changed the story and said he put it down on a table, and Kovco made some sort of movement and the gun discharged and SOMEHOW shot him in the head. Kovco's family has raised doubt over these claims and stated to the media that he has been handling guns from a young age when he had hunted deer. His gun that he aparently was cleaning also has a 3 stage safety on it. Then the family pointed out that for the gun to shoot him in the head, his head would have to be level with the table.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=97594

So my question is to you, how much do you trust government reports?

[S3SR]

EDIT: i voted I wouldn't trust the government reports at all.

[4.9 EF Futura]

I trust the government. But dont see the relevance....

You should be questioning the trustworthyness of the military.... military is seperate from government... and i probably wouldnt say i trust the military's reports... but then, understand why they need to keep some things to themselves.

However, whatever the case - i think the family deserves some honest answers.

[Outbackjack]

I think that between the IR laws, Pvt Kovco, and AWB, I really dont see how this gov could possibly ask the Australian people to re elect them. But given the arrogance of the current crop of public servants (read polititians) of course they will.......

[xfalconz]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

I trust the government. But dont see the relevance....

You should be questioning the trustworthyness of the military.... military is seperate from government... and i probably wouldnt say i trust the military's reports... but then, understand why they need to keep some things to themselves.

However, whatever the case - i think the family deserves some honest answers.

I dont want to anyone off coz these political/military posts get people offside easily but the government decides where the military go so we put our trust in them to make the right desicion.
So i think ultimate responsibility for this tragic event rests with the government to a point. There is always some 'spin' in reports that negatively effect the military or government such as this incident to prevent more opposition to whats going on over there.
Either way at least Howard has had the balls to accept the responsibility for this and hopefully the mans family can in time get some closure.

[gozza]

don't trust anyone...condolences to the family also......it doesn't make sense at all

this is pure speculation...but seeing as tho he was shot in the head....suicide or murder springs to mind....whats the chances of a gun accidentally going off and getting you in the head with out being aimed

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

I think that between the IR laws, Pvt Kovco, and AWB, I really dont see how this gov could possibly ask the Australian people to re elect them. But given the arrogance of the current crop of public servants (read polititians) of course they will.......

I have to be honest... is anyone really that put out by the AWB enquiry? I mean - is it one of those things "everyone knows that's how they do business?".

I know that's a pretty horrible thing to say... but its meant a lot of money to a lot of primary producers.... and frankly i dont think it'll be much of a sore spot for the govt...

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by xfalconz

hopefully the mans family can in time get some closure.

Here, here.

[xfalconz]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

I have to be honest... is anyone really that put out by the AWB enquiry? I mean - is it one of those things "everyone knows that's how they do business?".

I know that's a pretty horrible thing to say... but its meant a lot of money to a lot of primary producers.... and frankly i dont think it'll be much of a sore spot for the govt...

I dont think alot of people are upset at the actual events of the AWB thing but by the fact whenever this government is called to account or take responsibility for their desicions they all cant remember, werent informed or even arrogantly deny it.
Thing is many people overlook all this when vote coz interest rates are low ad we blinded by low unemployment figures and a good budget.
Of course all that is extremely important and im not one to generally put my moral standards over my financial status! but this goverment knows they can get away with whatever they like and if these knew IR laws, terrorism laws etc come back to bite people on the a--se in the future then weve only got ourselves to blame (or the people who voted liberal.. ).

[Mark^^]

Dare I even mention "children overboard"...or is that lost from everyones memories on how truthful our government is.

Mark

[S3SR]

if the government did they whole AWB kickbacks to get other countries to buy our wheat they did us a favour

if the body was un-intentionally mixed up then who do we blame...the education system...government...that persons parents? its easier to blame than to fix the problem or to admit fault

IR laws i think it was for small businesses who could get sued for unfair dismissle because a worker was not effecient but the owner didnt have grounds - IR laws are IN but large companies abused that power and their should be penalties ie if u do ur job u should have nothing to worry about

the only thing that the government shouldnt do is control our money cause they cant (GST only worst thing the government EVER did)

HOWARD for the win - when i turn 18 hes got my vote

[xfalconz]

Like i said these political threads can get people off side and with my last post i was just stating my opinion and if we go through a list of what this government has done over the years right or wrong it will become a long thread with many upset people!!
So even if i dont agree with everything about how this country is run sometimes Howard (in my opinion) can do the right thing as mentioned earlier.
After alls said and done most of us are lucky to call Australia our home.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by FALCONSR

if the government did they whole AWB kickbacks to get other countries to buy our wheat they did us a favour

if the body was un-intentionally mixed up then who do we blame...the education system...government...that persons parents? its easier to blame than to fix the problem or to admit fault

IR laws i think it was for small businesses who could get sued for unfair dismissle because a worker was not effecient but the owner didnt have grounds - IR laws are IN but large companies abused that power and their should be penalties ie if u do ur job u should have nothing to worry about

the only thing that the government shouldnt do is control our money cause they cant (GST only worst thing the government EVER did)

HOWARD for the win - when i turn 18 hes got my vote

Wait and see what your attitude to "as long as I do my job I have nothing to worry about" is once you have been working for a few years.... Working your butt off and still getting the tap on the shoulder. Unions were not formed 100 years ago for nothing you know. These laws have put everyone on the knife edge. That is what they are designed to do. A frightend worker is an easy worker to exploit.

[xfalconz]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Wait and see what your attitude to "as long as I do my job I have nothing to worry about" is once you have been working for a few years.... Working your butt off and still getting the tap on the shoulder. Unions were not formed 100 years ago for nothing you know. These laws have put everyone on the knife edge. That is what they are designed to do. A frightend worker is an easy worker to exploit.

If only we had a credible opposition! These laws on IR have affected people i know in the building industry already, lower wages or told no longer needed.
Workers rights and security are being taken for granted and bosses can lose their responsibilities to their employees for a better profit margin.
I said before most of us are lucky to call Australia home but there is a danger of losing everything that has been achieved for 100 years or so.
Remember when Howard was opposition leader so long ago the famous "we will not introduce a GST" line..
Man, i tried not post another reply here after my previous summary!!

[S3SR]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Wait and see what your attitude to "as long as I do my job I have nothing to worry about" is once you have been working for a few years.... Working your butt off and still getting the tap on the shoulder. Unions were not formed 100 years ago for nothing you know. These laws have put everyone on the knife edge. That is what they are designed to do. A frightend worker is an easy worker to exploit.

yeah i understand where your coming from work all day and all night 7 days a week 365days a year and at any second it could all be over im not saying im the best employee (well not for woolworths) and i dont have a family or huge commitments like a mortgage....so i can easily go from one job to another
but i guess ill have to wait until i get into the workplace after uni and work for 10 or so years and get sacked cause i gave the employer a dirty look

but i honestly doubt anything will happen to me anytime soon like within 20 years or so but if ur gonna spend time worrying i dont think that job is any good

[gozza]

we can't have the cake and eat it fellas
theres always going to be a good and bad side to anything...if you want equalibrium...you can't have all the good

the minimum wage for any award is the minimum wage and will not go under UNLESS our economy goes down...
the governments intentions are to have a thriving econmy to reduce the costs of living etc etc

some people are earning minium wage for a reason.....not always but the ol line...."if you put the hard yard in at school" may be applicable..

call me iggnorant if you want....but if i have a crummy job that pays me nothing..in a way i have myself to blame... i have put MYSELF in the position to be expendable

but wages and the type of job your doing put aside...you can still be shafted with no reason

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by xfalconz

If only we had a credible opposition! These laws on IR have affected people i know in the building industry already, lower wages or told no longer needed.
Workers rights and security are being taken for granted and bosses can lose their responsibilities to their employees for a better profit margin.
I said before most of us are lucky to call Australia home but there is a danger of losing everything that has been achieved for 100 years or so.
Remember when Howard was opposition leader so long ago the famous "we will not introduce a GST" line..
Man, i tried not post another reply here after my previous summary!!

You are right, people can get very passionate (me included) about these subjects. But I believe that they are entitled to. Once the gov start stripping away peoples rights, especially where the checks and balances of the senate have been removed, were will it end?? It is a good thing that MOST Australians dont trust the gov!! And in my opinion this gov has proved itself un-trust worthy.... back to the thread topic... eh!

[xfalconz]

And there lies the problem, most Australians dont trust the government but vote for them anyway, what else is there..

Can blame the government for doing as they please,and the opposition for being useless in equal amounts.

[gozza]

i just want to live in a village and tend to my sheep

[Outbackjack]

Here is a question, who reckons Jillian Gillard would be able to thow the cat amonst the pidgeons, wonder how well equiped the libs would be to deal with a woman opposition leader that talks like a real Aussie!!!

I'd love to see it.

[turboute]

That is true we all want job security - but to look at it from the other side you get a different picture. How many jobs are going outside the country? Think of all the telemarketers you get from India, the manufacturing jobs from china, taiwan Indo etc. The unions have driven up wages so far that it is not feasible for alot of these jobs to be in the county. If it keeps going the way it is we will be completely non-compeditive with the rest of the world and Australia will start loosing large projects. If it wasn't for the resorces boom that we are having our economy would be screwed over very quickly. The current boom may continue for the next 10 yrs but after that we will probably be in recession.

When the union were initially formed they were doing it for the right reason, people were well below the poverty line and were being harshly treated. But these days people get 90k for being the stop/ go person - that is rediculous. And it's half the reason why there are cost blowouts on every major project in every state. These guys do not have to perform because their job security is too tight - they cannot be fired for being lazy.

Unions do have their place and do some good things for their members, but for too long now they have been on a power trip and holding construction companies and govenments to ransom. I would love it if they would just tone it down a bit and just expect pay rises at the same rate as inflation - but if it keeps higher than the rate of inflation then the economy will go downhill quickly.

BTW I have been a contrator for longer than the new IR laws have been in place. I am in a fairly specialised niche and know pretty much everyone else doing the same job. If I screw up i dont get any work. Simple as that. Alot of other people cannot take that kind of pressure.

[S3SR]

Originally Posted by gozza

i just want to live in a village and tend to my sheep

or u could do that id prefer a large 10 person tent out bush near a river/lake and my falcon

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

You are right, people can get very passionate (me included) about these subjects. But I believe that they are entitled to.

Agreed... ive probably been guilty of crossing the line a few too many times But so long as we can discuss these matters without getting in trouble with the mods (who, might i add - have been pretty good in letting some of these discussions continue on AFF) and so long as we can leave it here and put our differences aside in the other forums then i think it's fairly healthy.

Remember when Howard was opposition leader so long ago the famous "we will not introduce a GST" line..

I also remember when the party changed their policy on the GST, took it to an election and won it.

Call it a flip flop if you must - but a party needs to evolve and part of this is changing positions on some issues. Let's not be mistaken - the GST was not a "hidden" issue in that run to the polls... it was not covered up and then imposed.... it was known as "the GST election" - it was THE issue. And the people of Australia voted for it.

we can't have the cake and eat it fellas
theres always going to be a good and bad side to anything...if you want equalibrium...you can't have all the good

the minimum wage for any award is the minimum wage and will not go under UNLESS our economy goes down...
the governments intentions are to have a thriving econmy to reduce the costs of living etc etc

some people are earning minium wage for a reason.....not always but the ol line...."if you put the hard yard in at school" may be applicable..

call me iggnorant if you want....but if i have a crummy job that pays me nothing..in a way i have myself to blame... i have put MYSELF in the position to be expendable

but wages and the type of job your doing put aside...you can still be shafted with no reason

Lol, at the risk of making myself even more unpopular on AFF - here, here.

Skilled workers (be it tradesmen, bankers, public servants or whatever) have an opportunity to flourish in this environment with a focus on productivity and need not be held back by the constraints of collectivism. Those who have relied on collectivism to 'prop' their earnings up in the absence of a defined skill are now faced with the task of proving their own worth.

[Polyal]

The problem is we will never know the truth, so I see no point in argueing. AWB - thats business, crap like that happens all the time, how much was the actual contract? A crap load more than the 'bribe" Im sure.

This soldiers death, while tragic, make no difference how it happened, and really its none of our business. What is BS is how the hell a body gets mixed up, thats a joke, and Id be sueing the as.s off someone for it.

You can crap on all you want about the gov, but te country is pretty strong in a tough world, so be happy we are not in recession.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

wonder how well equiped the libs would be to deal with a woman opposition leader that talks like a real Aussie!!!

What on earth is a "real" aussie ?? I find expressions like that to be very disturbing.

Are you suggesting the tone of someone's voice denotes them more australian than someone else? What exactly makes gillard more australian than howard or beazley?

[gozza]

well i don't really have sheep....just sometimes feel like id love to be out of eveything.....have no money.....buy a simple shack and live of my own produce

[EDManual]

so what do you think happened to him? perhaps Suicide? That sounds like a possibility as it seems this is the sort of thing people may want to hide in the military. Thats what immediately came to my mind when I heard he wasnt in fact cleaning his gun.

[xfalconz]

No offence but I dont think speculating on this forum about what happened to him is a good idea.
He was there doing what he had to and whether it was an accident or not it is none of our business.
Im sure his family have enough to remind them with the media and possible enquiry.
At least with Howard taking responsibility there will hopefully be no witch hunt in public to find the person responsible. It can hopefully be done discreetly.

[max]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Wait and see what your attitude to "as long as I do my job I have nothing to worry about" is once you have been working for a few years.... Working your butt off and still getting the tap on the shoulder. Unions were not formed 100 years ago for nothing you know. These laws have put everyone on the knife edge. That is what they are designed to do. A frightend worker is an easy worker to exploit.

Feds are screwing us in broad daylight. But we are a good laid-back society and take it up the clacker. The stats show we seem to like a conservative govt in for the long haul. For just long enough to haul us down into the dark ages. Then every 10 or so years we vote in a visionary to pull us out again for a bit of air, then enough of that, tip them out and back down we go......

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

What on earth is a "real" aussie ?? I find expressions like that to be very disturbing.

Are you suggesting the tone of someone's voice denotes them more australian than someone else? What exactly makes gillard more australian than howard or beazley?

I am suggesting that she speaks like what most people would consider to be an Aussie accent, not kiwi, not chinese, not american, not indian. Aussie