advice needed please (cam timing )!!!

[gtfpv]

g'day chris . i was wondering if i could milk some of your knowledge please.

i kave a BA MKII GT 2005 6SP MANUAL. TODAY i had the plastic timing chain tensioners changed to the metal BF type ones under warranty.
when my wife picked up the car she rang me on the way home and said the car has lost a little power, and the idle is higher , and the exhaust is quieter.

when i test drove the car , i noticed the engine running a little smoother. the exhaust a tad quiter and the induction noise almost non existant. still sounding nice likje a v8 and going quite hard, but less animalistic.
so i checked the trip computor and noticed the settings wewre still there , then i checked the origional battery , which has never been disconnected, and found the blue dye, uncracked across the terminals .
i rang the dealer and explained this to the service advisor, he said the battery was definately disconnected, i said where at the starter, he said no , at the negative terminal, i asked why the trip computer hadn't zeroed then , he said that it retains memory. i then ask why the car is running nice and smooth, with a differant charactoristic to before, ie less lumpy idle, little less urgency, quieter exhaust, and no induction noise .
simply put , it sounds like a BF.
/// was tyhe timing changed??? he claimed not. he said the engine would be running rough if any cam shaft was one tooth out, then proceeded to say that the tooling they use it is all set and virtually impossible for this to happen. he said the symptoms are probably the K, A. M. ( keep alive memory in the ecu needing to relearn after the battery had been disconnected.
what do you make of this ????
he said BF settings are exactly the same as BA , but the cams are differant so you cannot change the settings from one to the other as the cam timing is fixed. ???
i'm really not sure if it is all in my head?? he also stated that the car was not reflashed, and has the same tune it went in with ( stock one) .

engine is running extremely smooth, no noises, as before in the cab you now only hear exhaust at the back.

should i be concerned is it possible that the timing has been changed, or would the symptoms be far worse.????

i am confused as i dont know what's even inviolved in changing them , looking at the drawings the timing chains dont even need to be removed fromt the sprockets when changing them but i dont know.??

if someopne didnt own the car and drive it every day , they would say it is perfectly fine and goes quite well. to me it seems about 20 kw's down
i had it dynoed a while ago at 264 rwkws
nothing has been changed since then ( 12 months ago) should i put it on the same dyno and get a re readout ???

hope you can help ??? cheers.

anyone else who knows how to do this job and knows the BOSS 290, please feel free to comment .
thanks in advance . FRANK.

[gtfpv]

I should also state that the car was running perfect with the plastic tensioners and was not rattling, i considered not changing them , but as per advice here, and knowing that o'rings eventually fail , and the fact that the dealer offered to change them at no cost , i did get it done. there was a little voice inside my head saying dont fix something that aint broke, but the other voice that said , your up for big money later on , outwieghed my 1st thought.

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

I should also state that the car was running perfect with the plastic tensioners and was not rattling, i considered not changing them , but as per advice here, and knowing that o'rings eventually fail , and the fact that the dealer offered to change them at no cost , i did get it done. there was a little voice inside my head saying dont fix something that aint broke, but the other voice that said , your up for big money later on , outwieghed my 1st thought.

Frank , while I can't answer you specific question, did you also get the oil pump gears done as well?

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by ozmale42

Frank , while I can't answer you specific question, did you also get the oil pump gears done as well?

NO I DIDNT. they are expensive, i am not editing the car or adding underdrives therefore i'm not getting them done , and even if i wanted to i didnt know when/or where i could purchase them , as i had to get the tensioners done before the 10th of march as then the car is out of warranty.

[superpursuit83]

Mate, when my oil pump gears went in, the timing was put back a tooth out. The car seemed to run ok but it did not feel the same. It sounded like a grumpy old Clevo. Now as I said, it ran ok and when I questioned the mechanic he told me their method was foolproof. I was also 20kw down on what I should have been.
Then I met Simon from Xtreme and wanted him to tune my car. He could not get any more power out and it would not take any timing changes. He also questioned my mechanic.
With no other option I gave my ute to my Ford dealer and told them Something was wrong, nothing else. Within 2 hours they called me and asked if anyone had touched the timing chain. I said yes and told them the story. Ford told me it was very easy to get the timing WRONG. It just takes a slip of the chain to the wrong tooth. They told me it happens often because of the rush rush atmosphere.
I would ask them to check it if its not better in a couple of hundred K's.
Only you know how your car is supposed to feel.

John

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by superpursuit83

Mate, when my oil pump gears went in, the timing was put back a tooth out. The car seemed to run ok but it did not feel the same. It sounded like a grumpy old Clevo. Now as I said, it ran ok and when I questioned the mechanic he told me their method was foolproof. I was also 20kw down on what I should have been.
Then I met Simon from Xtreme and wanted him to tune my car. He could not get any more power out and it would not take any timing changes. He also questioned my mechanic.
With no other option I gave my ute to my Ford dealer and told them Something was wrong, nothing else. Within 2 hours they called me and asked if anyone had touched the timing chain. I said yes and told them the story. Ford told me it was very easy to get the timing WRONG. It just takes a slip of the chain to the wrong tooth. They told me it happens often because of the rush rush atmosphere.
I would ask them to check it if its not better in a couple of hundred K's.
Only you know how your car is supposed to feel.

John

it's a worry, but my car was done by FORD, and they state they cant get it wrong. i cant explain the battery not being disconnected at the terminal, nor the fact that it is quieter/and smoother. it has more of the not much before 4000 rpm now , where as before it had much more urgancy. still quite fast though. just not seat throwing. even to the point where i 'd say, perhaps i'm just imagining this. cant wait for chris's input here .

also i cant imagine the timing chains being removed ,as the pump gears werent changed.

[superpursuit83]

All I can say is you know your car, and when you think something is wrong it can mess with your head.
And also remember that everyone is human and they could get it wrong?

[DJL351]

Nah.... Something is not right here.

Battery should have been disconnected. (full stop - don not pass go)

Chain can be a tooth out. They do use three tools to hold the sprokets/gears in place, but as mentioned in many threads on here about service departments, it depends on the tool using the tool.

As for the engine.... suspect a reflash.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by DJL351

Nah.... Something is not right here.

Battery should have been disconnected. (full stop - don not pass go)

Chain can be a tooth out. They do use three tools to hold the sprokets/gears in place, but as mentioned in many threads on here about service departments, it depends on the tool using the tool.

As for the engine.... suspect a reflash.

LOOK A REFLASH WOULD BE A LOGICAL EXPLANATION . BUT WOULDNT A BATTERY NEED TO BE DISCONNECTED FOR THAT?? ( SORRY CAPS)

[gtfpv]

Something i forgot to mention on the idle .
it used to just idle down to about 600 rpm. linear and almost straight away.
now it lowers to 1100rpm , after you release the throttle and sits there for about 5 seconds and then lowers to about 750 rpm. in a switched kind of way.

the service advisor said that that is very charactoristic of an engine that has the battery disconnected and will change after a few days. . like i said though , no evidence of battery disconnect.
does anyone know for sure if the trip computor resets to 0 if the battery gets disconnected .
the dealer didn't know !!!!!!!!!

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

Something i forgot to mention on the idle .
it used to just idle down to about 600 rpm. linear and almost straight away.
now it lowers to 1100rpm , after you release the throttle and sits there for about 5 seconds and then lowers to about 750 rpm. in a switched kind of way.

the service advisor said that that is very charactoristic of an engine that has the battery disconnected and will change after a few days. . like i said though , no evidence of battery disconnect.
does anyone know for sure if the trip computor resets to 0 if the battery gets disconnected .
the dealer didn't know !!!!!!!!!

Come to think of it Greg (Grum) disconnected my battery before fitting my steering wheel and the trip meter did not reset itself

[Grum]

Yes I did, I think it depends on how long it is left off for.

[nt0351]

i was watching with interest with the comments and advise been posted when you asked should you get them replaced or not ,... to be honest i was shaking my head with the general advise received ...... im a firm believer of if it aint broke dont try to fix it ,.... people dont understand that a warranty job will in most cases be carried out as cheaply as possible ,,,the manufacturer wont pay the dealer retail labour rates like we pay ,... so they do the bare minimum ,..
other things you should know :
very easy for the timing chain to slip a tooth even with the set-up jigs.

you can disconnect power without removing the battery terminals ,..

on a brighter note i dont think there is anything wrong with your engine ,... sounds like it needs a re-flash and a good drive,.....

[Bluepower]

Frank,

hard to say what has happened here - timing the Boss motor is so easy its like falling off a log, even if its a tooth out, it will still run smoothly.

Is the timing out?? only one way to find out.

Has the car had an update??

Dynoing the car at this stage wont tell you much, as it was done 12mths ago, and a lot can happen in a year, so for comparision it wont really help.

Call me, we'll chat

Chris

[shepv8]

Originally Posted by nt0351

i was watching with interest with the comments and advise been posted when you asked should you get them replaced or not ,... to be honest i was shaking my head with the general advise received ...... im a firm believer of if it aint broke dont try to fix it ,.... people dont understand that a warranty job will in most cases be carried out as cheaply as possible ,,,the manufacturer wont pay the dealer retail labour rates like we pay ,... so they do the bare minimum ,..
other things you should know :
very easy for the timing chain to slip a tooth even with the set-up jigs.

you can disconnect power without removing the battery terminals ,..

on a brighter note i dont think there is anything wrong with your engine ,... sounds like it needs a re-flash and a good drive,.....

I agree with if it aint broke dont fix it, but , it was broke. His timing chain was rattling for 5 seconds when he started the car up. He is one of the lucky people who got a defective/badly designed part replaced under warranty.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Bluepower

Frank,

hard to say what has happened here - timing the Boss motor is so easy its like falling off a log, even if its a tooth out, it will still run smoothly.

Is the timing out?? only one way to find out.

Has the car had an update??

Dynoing the car at this stage wont tell you much, as it was done 12mths ago, and a lot can happen in a year, so for comparision it wont really help.

Call me, we'll chat

Chris

well thanks chris , i agree with what you and others say about dynoes , could be 20 kws differance anyhow . what i was thinking about was the curve . surprised to hear that the car will still run smooth, a tooth out .
on the bright side , after ringing its neck last night, the wife says that the idle has become more like before, but i havent driven the car today. you say only one way to find out if timing has been changed . oh no. i have to pull the front covers off dont I. ihad your number before chris it was a long time ago. if you want to send it to me just send a pm . cheers. the dealer assured me the tune was not changed . i dont think they would tell you if it was though, i heard they are not oblidged to tell the customer this .

[Bluepower]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

well thanks chris , i agree with what you and others say about dynoes , could be 20 kws differance anyhow . what i was thinking about was the curve . surprised to hear that the car will still run smooth, a tooth out .
on the bright side , after ringing its neck last night, the wife says that the idle has become more like before, but i havent driven the car today. you say only one way to find out if timing has been changed . oh no. i have to pull the front covers off dont I. ihad your number before chris it was a long time ago. if you want to send it to me just send a pm . cheers. the dealer assured me the tune was not changed . i dont think they would tell you if it was though, i heard they are not oblidged to tell the customer this .

You would be amazed Frank at how well an engine will idle with the cam out. In fact, a seasoned race engine builder will struggle to hear a difference.

Usually a SLIGHT vacuum difference, and it wont have any power. Idle will be fine.

You need to do what I say to ALL of my customers who get a car tuned elsewhere, or work done by a dealer, and complain its not making the right power.

98 percent of the time its not the tuner/dealers fault, its the car, and you always need to give the car a chance to settle into a trim routine, rather than just picking it up off the kerb and expecting to raise the titanic.

Mate, Im pulling Boss motors apart this morning, try me on 03 9305 3000.

[gtfpv]

i will drive the car for a few days . i drove it today and it did get a little better, but still something not right. , on a very flat clean road . i pulled over removed the BMC Air filter and inspected it, it was about 40% blocked . i then drove home approx 2kms without the air filter, to my surprise . THE GT WAS BACK. induction noise and all.

since the shain tensioners were done i checked the economy. and it went from an average of 15.7ltrs/100kms to 17.9.

i cleaned the air filter and re installed into the car, and reset the trip computer. i'll monitor over the next few days, and see what happens . if the economy returns to 15.3-15.7 as has been over 3 years , i'll suspect it's all good. if not , i'll take that as proof.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by Bluepower

You would be amazed Frank at how well an engine will idle with the cam out. In fact, a seasoned race engine builder will struggle to hear a difference.

Usually a SLIGHT vacuum difference, and it wont have any power. Idle will be fine.

You need to do what I say to ALL of my customers who get a car tuned elsewhere, or work done by a dealer, and complain its not making the right power.

98 percent of the time its not the tuner/dealers fault, its the car, and you always need to give the car a chance to settle into a trim routine, rather than just picking it up off the kerb and expecting to raise the titanic.

Mate, Im pulling Boss motors apart this morning, try me on 03 9305 3000.

sorry i didn't call chris , i slept all day after working MN shift. i'll monitor over the next few days, i dont want to waste your time while i'm not sure, if i am still in doubt after a few days, i will call you on what to do next.

i tried to listen for preignition under load today, and i'm not sure if i could hear any at all in anyscenario, perhaps just a little under full acceleration , hard to tell. then again i am pretty sure i may have noticed this before.
sooner or later , i will no doubt get the car redynoed, and get a scan check on timing etc.
perhaps a custom tune may actually be better than a factory one, for absolute correctness. and i may go down this path later, for perfection more so than performance. anyway, wont go too far off topic .
life would be so much easier for my gt if BLUEPOWER , were in PENRITH buddy. it's times like this when people like me , who have 1/2 an idea, realize, that not many workshops have experiance with the boss.whilst they are out there it's a specialised field.

[X ORSMXR]

Hi mate when l owned my XR8 and took it in for a service or warrenty the car always lost a heap of power and the punch it had before it went in.. And like yourself asked if they flashed in a updated program and got told no...

But when talking to a technician from another dealer they have been told the first thing they do is scan the computer for fault codes and reflash the computer as it logs a time and date of it's last reflash into the cars computer for the next technician to see what has happened previous....so drive it like you stole it and it will come back to the way it was....When my car got the tensioners done the car was alot different and sounded quieter for a while anyway...lol

Cheers Chris

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by X ORSMXR

Hi mate when l owned my XR8 and took it in for a service or warrenty the car always lost a heap of power and the punch it had before it went in.. And like yourself asked if they flashed in a updated program and got told no...

But when talking to a technician from another dealer they have been told the first thing they do is scan the computer for fault codes and reflash the computer as it logs a time and date of it's last reflash into the cars computer for the next technician to see what has happened previous....so drive it like you stole it and it will come back to the way it was....When my car got the tensioners done the car was alot different and sounded quieter for a while anyway...lol

Cheers Chris

thanks heaps , mate, you dont know how good it is to hears this . cheers.

[nt0351]

Originally Posted by shepv8

I agree with if it aint broke dont fix it, but , it was broke. His timing chain was rattling for 5 seconds when he started the car up. He is one of the lucky people who got a defective/badly designed part replaced under warranty.

dont know about been lucky ,...personally i wouldnt want the front of my motor pulled apart by a dealer workshop to rectify a start up rattle,.. better grade of oil would have fixed that ....you get what you pay for ,... in this case it was done for free under warranty ,... so dont expect too much ... you get what im saying.

[DJL351]

Originally Posted by nt0351

dont know about been lucky ,...personally i wouldnt want the front of my motor pulled apart by a dealer workshop to rectify a start up rattle,.. better grade of oil would have fixed that ....you get what you pay for ,... in this case it was done for free under warranty ,... so dont expect too much ... you get what im saying.

You don't know about the 5.4's do you? All the top grade oil in the world would not stop a BA 5.4 from making the tick noise on start up.
The new upgraded tensioners however... does.

D

[Sam_Boss260]

So what are people's opinion here, would you try and replace the tensioners under warranty even if the car does not make a sound on start up? I'm even more reluncant to do this now after hearing the drama's that gtfpv is having.

[DJL351]

Originally Posted by Sam_Boss260

So what are people's opinion here, would you try and replace the tensioners under warranty even if the car does not make a sound on start up? I'm even more reluncant to do this now after hearing the drama's that gtfpv is having.

Get it done for nothing. Or pay.

Wait for more damage to be caused, or get on it early..... Tough one for me.

[Sam_Boss260]

Ok. Point taken

Cheers

[Bluepower]

Originally Posted by DJL351

Get it done for nothing. Or pay.

Wait for more damage to be caused, or get on it early..... Tough one for me.

What he said

[Sam_Boss260]

Thanks Chris.

[DJL351]

Originally Posted by Sam_Boss260

Ok. Point taken

Cheers

Sorry, just read my post again. It came out harsh and that was not the idea.

I'm sure Chris has seen the result of these tensioners letting go all-together. (I know I've seen a couple)

One was done under warranty, customer happy. (although without a car for over a week)

The other, was not. Customer was told they needed doing, 6 months out of warranty, noise started. Explained what it was, customer wanted it done under warranty. - Didn't happen.
Less than two weeks later, the car rolled up on a tilt tray.

[Sam_Boss260]

Yeah no sweat. I didn't take it the wrong way. You were just trying to make a point, and that point came across.

Sam