D-Day 70th Anniversary

[Moby Vic]

I guess I missed it over there.

This is interesting:
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/how...125314/+travis

[2011G6E]

Amazing battle.
A stark reminder of how "safe" battle is these days. Today when our country goes to war, one soldier dies now and then, but rarely, and it's a national tragedy that makes news for weeks, with emotional calls that we pull out of a war or immediately give up and go home.
On D-Day, around 12,000 allied soldiers died in that one day and 2000 aircraft were lost.

You can actually draw a conclusion that the public back then were made of sterner stuff and saw casualties as a tragic but sadly normal part of war and demanded that we stick with it to the end...the world would be a very different place now if we had lost our nerve and demanded we go home when a single soldier died.

[Moby Vic]

I believe in the Gulf War many more American troops died from accidents than due to enemy action.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Amazing battle.
A stark reminder of how "safe" battle is these days. Today when our country goes to war, one soldier dies now and then, but rarely, and it's a national tragedy that makes news for weeks, with emotional calls that we pull out of a war or immediately give up and go home.
On D-Day, around 12,000 allied soldiers died in that one day and 2000 aircraft were lost.

You can actually draw a conclusion that the public back then were made of sterner stuff and saw casualties as a tragic but sadly normal part of war and demanded that we stick with it to the end...the world would be a very different place now if we had lost our nerve and demanded we go home when a single soldier died.

I would say that civilian casualties are, always were, the hidden costs of war.

Carpet bombing from 35000 feet and you really have no control over what you hit....you kill everything, especially those whom you claim to be liberating. probably why the yanks have never won a war, the Vietnamese for example were just plucking them off one by one when they eventually marched in.
Now they prefer drones so no accountability.


France was absolutely levelled for D-day....and no monument park could possible be big enough for 7 million jews....

I hate war and it's glorification by these politicians' ceremonies.

[CoupeKing]

Carpet bombing cities was to disrupt and lower morale. How effective that was is debatable. Strategic bombing was completely different. German was machine was halted from the continual bombing of oilfields. They had peak numbers of planes and tanks produced right up until the end of 1944, but most just sat around due to lack of fuel. Perfect example of this is the Battle of the Bulge. One of the firsts goals were to capture allied fuel dumps from the retreating allies, it was doomed form the start.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by zilo

the yanks have never won a war

What?

[Maka]

Originally Posted by zilo

probably why the yanks have never won a war.

Oh ok, tell us another one then!

cheers, Maka

[BHDOGS]

Ah yes the yanks they swoop in at the end once theve been attacked take all the credit then demand a thank you after most of europe is under nazi control. Better late then never i suppose.

[CoupeKing]

We`d be speaking Japanese and the Poms Deutsch is they didnt swoop in.

[BHDOGS]

actually if japan didnt have to attack american targets to get here i doubt america would of done **** all

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

actually if japan didnt have to attack american targets to get here i doubt america would of done **** all

Perhaps if Japan had not have:

1) invaded Manchuria
2) invaded China
3) invaded French Indochina/Vietnam

In the period 1933 to 1940, the US, UK, France and Holland would not have had the need to impose economic and trading sanctions against Japan...

As for D-Day, it was not just all about America, there was a large UK and Canadian contingent too, and the Royal Navy provided most of the surface combatants to cover the invasion fleet. Had the ALLIES not carried out D-Day and just left it up to Stalin, then the Iron Curtain would have been at the English Channel, not the middle of Germany.

[BHDOGS]

It is rather amusing they imposed sactions because the Japanese took over already invaded and conquered countrys. Good old European powers do as we say not as we do.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

What?

Don't bite, some people are just not worth the effort...

Just and move along.

[bungarra]

Don't forget that 300 Australian's died on the 6 June. These were from Bomber and fighter command, naval landing craft operators and soldiers attched to British and Canadian units.

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

Carpet bombing cities was to disrupt and lower morale. How effective that was is debatable. Strategic bombing was completely different. German was machine was halted from the continual bombing of oilfields. They had peak numbers of planes and tanks produced right up until the end of 1944, but most just sat around due to lack of fuel. Perfect example of this is the Battle of the Bulge. One of the firsts goals were to capture allied fuel dumps from the retreating allies, it was doomed form the start.

That is somewhat right
Yes they needed fuel but the Germans surprised the allies who thought the war would be over by Xmas 1944

The Germans we haulted at Bastogne by the 101 st airborne but they finally got the upper hand when the fog finally cleared and allied air superiority stopped the Germans

Their objectives were over ambitious and eventually they did abandon their vehicles many of which were out of fuel

The German army were arguably still the best army in the world. Their tanks, infantry weapons even some of their aircraft were far superior to anything the allies had

What the Germans couldn't do is replace their losses unlike the Allies

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by zilo

I would say that civilian casualties are, always were, the hidden costs of war.

Carpet bombing from 35000 feet and you really have no control over what you hit....you kill everything, especially those whom you claim to be liberating. probably why the yanks have never won a war, the Vietnamese for example were just plucking them off one by one when they eventually marched in.
Now they prefer drones so no accountability.


France was absolutely levelled for D-day....and no monument park could possible be big enough for 7 million jews....

I hate war and it's glorification by these politicians' ceremonies.

No one is glorifying war
The ceremony is to remember those who made the ultimate sacrifice so that people like you can exercise your right to free speech, like you just have

[BHDOGS]

Agreed its also a good time to reflect on the real reasons all this started in the first place instead of the propaganda reasons the victors would have you believe according to the french and British conquering europe is evil crushing africa and most of asia and slaughtered genocide was just bringing civilization. Its funny how the wheels of time turn all things around like a pin wheel.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

actually if japan didnt have to attack american targets to get here i doubt america would of done **** all

We could have left you in Churchill's protective embrace.

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

The Germans we haulted at Bastogne by the 101 st airborne but they finally got the upper hand when the fog finally cleared and allied air superiority stopped the Germans

''Nuts''

[Auslandau]

Careful with how opinions are discussed. So bordering on racist slurs, the thread will close if it continues in this vein.

[MethodX]

Americans fought on the wrong side.
Shouldn't have been in the Euro theatre at all, wasn't their fight..

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

That is somewhat right
Yes they needed fuel but the Germans surprised the allies who thought the war would be over by Xmas 1944

The Germans we haulted at Bastogne by the 101 st airborne but they finally got the upper hand when the fog finally cleared and allied air superiority stopped the Germans

Their objectives were over ambitious and eventually they did abandon their vehicles many of which were out of fuel

The German army were arguably still the best army in the world. Their tanks, infantry weapons even some of their aircraft were far superior to anything the allies had

What the Germans couldn't do is replace their losses unlike the Allies

The Wehrmacht by 1944 was a basket case

The only way they were able to begin the Ardennes Offensive is because the US divisions had overstretched their supply lines for some time and were thinly spread in the Ardennes region

Plus Hitler had pulled divisions from the east and north purposely to support the operation. Even then as soon as the weather lifted and the weaknesses in the strategy started to show, it was all over

[Moby Vic]

I recently read this book. It's very depressing:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/bo...view.html?_r=0

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Americans fought on the wrong side.
Shouldn't have been in the Euro theatre at all, wasn't their fight..

It wasn't? Hitler declared war on us, not the other way around.

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

The Wehrmacht by 1944 was a basket case

The only way they were able to begin the Ardennes Offensive is because the US divisions had overstretched their supply lines for some time and were thinly spread in the Ardennes region

Plus Hitler had pulled divisions from the east and north purposely to support the operation. Even then as soon as the weather lifted and the weaknesses in the strategy started to show, it was all over

You are wrong about the Wehrmacht.
Dick Winters (101st airborne) and band of brothers fame him self said that the Germans had the best army in any theatre of combat even at that late stage of the war

tanks such as the king tiger first saw action in the Arden and were not pulled from the eastern front

The allies were unaware of these reserves of men and equipment which was a result of the Germans widening the call up age which put an additional 600,000 soldiers on the western front to one million men in total.

They assembled 250,000 solders spread over 7 panzer divisions with the armoured strength of the 6th Panzer army for the assult

However they were still short of fuel manpower and amunition, and to proceed with the attack was a desperate measure by the austrian mad man running the show at the time

What the allies had was numbers and resources. This doesn't discredit them as a fighting force but they overwhelmed the Germans with numbers on all fronts both in the sky and on the ground

As an example some German Tiger tank units had a kill rates of 10:1 against the allies but the tanks were replaced just as quickly as they were destroyed

There we're about 1,300 Tiger 1 tanks built compared to around 53,000 M4 shermans built and 57,000 T34's. sure the Germans had other tanks but you just can't win against those odds no matter how good you or your equipment is

What was a basket case was the Austrian dictator and his cronies who thought they could still win the war

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Maka

Oh ok, tell us another one then!

cheers, Maka

I'll just tell you the ones in my lifetime?

Vietnam? fail
Korea? fail
Iraq? fail
Afghanistan? fail

the reason is that no "enemy" marches in straight lines with drummer boys dressed in red and bagpipes blazing in front anymore.

It's a guerrilla based platform since WW2, and you need the civilians on side, else you can't tell who the enemy is.

(why I mentioned carpet bombing as a flawed military strategy)

cheers

zilo

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

It wasn't? Hitler declared war on us, not the other way around.

No it wasn't, most Americans supported the Germans at the time.
If someone in the high command or the officer class had killed Hitler, things would have gone a lot better.

The knob end wouldn't listen to his generals.

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by zilo

I'll just tell you the ones in my lifetime?

Vietnam? fail
Korea? fail
Iraq? fail
Afghanistan? fail

the reason is that no "enemy" marches in straight lines with drummer boys dressed in red and bagpipes blazing in front anymore.

It's a guerrilla based platform since WW2, and you need the civilians on side, else you can't tell who the enemy is.

(why I mentioned carpet bombing as a flawed military strategy)


cheers

zilo

Carpet bombing is an outdated strategy but was the only one available 70 odd years ago

Iraq isn't a fail Saddam isn't there any more , Korea also not a fail neither was Kuwait

I do agree that it's getting harder to spot the enemy then again wars of late are more political rather than attempts at world domination

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

Carpet bombing is an outdated strategy but was the only one available 70 odd years ago

Iraq isn't a fail Saddam isn't there any more , Korea also not a fail neither was Kuwait

I do agree that it's getting harder to spot the enemy then again wars of late are more political rather than attempts at world domination

Would have been better to leave saddam there.
Pointless war.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by MethodX

No it wasn't, most Americans supported the Germans at the time.

Citation needed.

Isolationism and support are different things.