Advanced Driving "P" Plate

[RIPGMH]

What does everyone reckon? As opposed to simply banning "P" platers from owning a performance/modified car, why not require the completion of an advance driver training course to allow the use of a performance vehicle. A secondary test in addition to the regular driving assessment.

[nugget378]

They have advanced driving courses for P platers every friday night at a certain maccas already dont they?

[RIPGMH]

Yeah I think the criteria would have to be a little more stringent than that.

[Christina]

I am a P Plater, I absolutely HATE the fact I can't drive a V8, (don't we all!)...
It is unfair, sure, but I can wait, I will wait.

I don't feel angry about it because if I had a v8, i'd be dead in a week. Some people can control themselves, some can't.
As for the whole "I am a good driver" line, who would resist the temptation at my age?...

But you can't deny that alot of people spoil it for others that is why any sort of implement into the system to allow some and not others will always be unfair.

My brother has a Ricer.. (Evo 7) and he is 21, you'd think he'd be going around corners at 200kms, but nope, he drives like a granny... But I chose the 2nd option, only because people can act a certain way when under supervision.... and change on their own or with friends. I guess it's a simply a matter of waiting, don't pump money into your v6, keep saving to buy the v8/performance car and avoid interest rates!!

But upon saying this, yes, I would love a V8.

[MITCHAY]

Personally I feel you should be able to drive whatever hell you want to.

I had my car on my Ps and havent even come close to bending it yet. Now on open licence.

[XR8-260]

I agree. P platers should be allowed to drive whatever they want. Clearly the restriction laws aren't working.

[Sykotik]

Cops really don't care about power to weight ratio, especially here in Geelong. A friend of mine is on his P's and owns a 5.4 litre VS and he has been pulled over several times already for inspections on his car. They never mentioned anything about the car being too powerful. I figure that unless you drive around like a maniac, that includes accelerating too hard, the cops will leave you alone. I myself drive around in my mums 4 litre AU2 SR and my dads 4.2 litre VH (as well as my own 1.6 Meteor but that is irrelevant) I have never once been pulled over.

But then again, i guess it really comes down to where you live and the areas you hang around. If your car gets spotted too often in a 'hoon hotzone' then i guess the cops will try and do everything to confiscate your car.

[b2tf]

disagree, it just means your non certified P platers are going to be even more ****ed off that they are as restricted as they are.

[One Drone]

Doesn't matter what car it is, any car can speed and hence hit a pole at high velocities. A driving course for everyone would be a better idea and not just P platers.

[flappist]

A little bit less emotion......

Advance driving courses are great but they do NOT give experience or maturity. Only ACTUAL ROAD driving does that.

How can an advance driving course give you experience is driving in rain or at night with some idiot on high beam coming at you or "attack of the 50 foot skippy" or one of the many zillions of other situations that will occur during your driving career.

Young people are a victim of technology. There is nothing you can do about it.
30 odd years ago the top of the line muscle cars (XY GT, HG Monaro GTS etc) were 200 to 220kw and almost young people owned them because they were over a years wages and there was no stupid free credit (no depost, no interest for 100 years, no payments until 2025).

When WE the old buggers who are doing this to you were P platers a V8 was a 110kw 253 and only the rich had them. Ricer rockets did not exist. Most of us had crap 6 cylinder kingswoods and falcons that did about 140km/h flat out and a 400m in 18 seconds.

Because of this by the time we got into faster cars we had 10 years driving experience because it took that long to save up to buy one.

N.B I realise the concept of "save up" is difficult for you to understand. It means you actually have the money in the bank before you buy something.

Right now a person who got his/her licence yesterday can buy a VT2 SS or a XR6T which is capable of going faster and out accellerating a Phase 3 GTHO. The problem is that at speed things happen fast and if you are not very practiced and switched on then when something goes wrong YOU WILL DIE.

Every P plater in the world is an excellent driver, better than most on the road. I know I was. There is nothing that anyone can say that will convince you otherwise.

The problem is you are not very good at driving. This is not because you are young, it is because you have not done much of it.
The more hours in command of the wheel, the better you will get. There are no shortcuts.
This means that a P plater with 1 years experience that consists of 2000km per week will probably be a MUCH better driver than a 40 year old who has held a licence for 20 years and only drives to the shops every second weekend and once a year drive up the coast to the beach house 150km away.
But most people, including P platers, do very little actual driving.

In aviation you are required to keep a log book of evey hour flown and until you have minimums you are restricted in what you can do.
e.g. 20 hrs min before you can carry a passenger in the training area, 40 hours minimum before leaving the training area, 150 hours minimum before you can carry a passenger for money etc.
This is not automatic, this is what you need before you can do the tests.
To fly a small regional (30-40 seat) aircraft, 1000hrs, 2 renewals on flying in cloud, 100hr of night, 250hrs of flying multi engines and THEN the test.

This is a very safe system. There are bugger all air deaths, so few in fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE makes the news Australia wide.

Would you rather have to keep a log book (that if falsified will mean you will lose your licence for life) that needs to be shown to an inspector ever X months but will allow you to drive any car as soon as you are proven capable? Would you be happy to have to re do your driving test every 2 years and if you fail are not allowed to drive until you pass even if you need your licence for your job?
You used to be able to just get a pilot's licence and away you went. After many many accidents it was decided to make it is bit more difficult and expect a bit of proven skill before letting you loose in a high performance aircraft.

It would be heaps safer and all of the drivers on the road would be much better at it.

No you want it ALL now don't you and you do not want to have to work for it.

This is why the restrictions are being brought in. To save you (and us) from yourselves.

Yes you hate it, but some years form now you will not hate it so much, firstly because you will have more experience and will see the new P platers of that time using the same arguements that you are but secondly and more importantly because you were not killed in a road accident where you lost control of a car that was too fast for you 3 weeks after you got your licence.

[big_pete]

its a good idea in theory.

but it would lead to more problems i think, there will still be ******** drivers, only now they will be even more confident they can pull of those dangerous moves because they've done an advanced driver course

[brendo83]

I have no issue with power restrictions for P platers, I've been full license now for 2 years, but I didn't have a problem with it then either.
An advanced driving course to allow you a more powerful car would be a backwards step.
Think about it, a P plater does an advanced driving course and improves his driving skills say by 20%, then said P plater gets his certificate and goes out and buys himself a 290 GT-P (rich parents).
Now does anyone honestly think that P plater will go out and cruise around like a grandma, no way.....he's an advanced driver now and even more invincible than he was before.
And further does anyone think he is capable of driving that car properly?

When I was on my P's I had a crappy XF that couldn't pull a skid if it tried and guess what, because the car didn't have performance I felt no need to thrash it, If I had a performance car I would have been doing burnouts and getting sideways around corners everywhere.

P platers cant drive powerful cars, deal with it, three years is a very short time, I fully intended to get a much more powerful car once I got my full license, I spent the first year or so waiting for the day, and on my 21st I was excited to know I could now get any car I wanted.......I still don't have one two years later.

[poolkeeper]

Its NOT the car, ITS the driver, like I said b4...

With every action is a reaction..

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by D1XR2C

Its NOT the car, ITS the driver, like I said b4...

Funny many still don't get that.

Well how about them power restrictions, they've saved plenty of lives last year _

I still stand by that my present car is much safer than my old car. Even with all the equipment in the world, if I be a ******** then it is going to kill me.

Originally Posted by flappist

N.B I realise the concept of "save up" is difficult for you to understand. It means you actually have the money in the bank before you buy something.

If I'm responsible enough to save up the money than I'm resposible enough to own it. Paid cash, no loans bud :

[Josh_XC]

Ok. ive done an advanced driving course, it was massive helpfull.
But with this i can see it adding to P platers ego as if they have done the course it might have a negative effect, as in if a p plater has done the course it can give the p plater the impression that they can do anything and there invincible and cant do anything wrong, i can see this happening for sure as this is in my opinion the biggest problem with P platers 2day.

I should know i am a p plater.

[Sykotik]

I gotta say that as an almost 19 y.o., i agree with the older guys here. I personally drive around a 1.6 litre, not very powerful but powerful enough none the less. i prefer driving around a smaller car because of a few problems I have in my mums AU2 in the wet. I barely tap the accelerator and the wheels spin like crazy. Not that I am blaming the car on this. It is my inexperience that causes this most probably.

Just wanted to re-iterate the point that the older guys made. It is indeed the inexperience of us younger guys that is to blame. Yeah, i can drive a high powered beast but even I (who is quite sensible) tends to have a lead foot and a need for speed. An advanced driving training isn't the answer to all this. Restrictions suck, yes, but an advanced driving training wouldn't help us prepare for the real hazards on the road as was stated in a previous message.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

If I'm responsible enough to save up the money than I'm resposible enough to own it. Paid cash, no loans bud :

I used to own a large number of machine guns that I paid cash for, all gone now. Apparantly I am no longer responsible enough.

If you did save up and pay cash, then good on you, you are a very rare person in this current climate and I salute you.
I bet you drive a basic normal car not a GT or Clubsport though.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by flappist

I bet you drive a basic normal car not a GT or Clubsport though.

I drive a 2003 WRX. Not a GT or Clubsport but still a performance car.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I drive a 2003 WRX. Not a GT or Clubsport but still a performance car.

Again, well done, good on you.
Drive it safely, they are a lot of fun.

I notice you are 20 so I suspect you didn't get your licence last week though, did you? If you had been given your sickem the day you got your P plates how do you think you would have gone?

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by flappist

A little bit less emotion......

Advance driving courses are great but they do NOT give experience or maturity. Only ACTUAL ROAD driving does that.

How can an advance driving course give you experience is driving in rain or at night with some idiot on high beam coming at you or "attack of the 50 foot skippy" or one of the many zillions of other situations that will occur during your driving career.

Young people are a victim of technology. There is nothing you can do about it.
30 odd years ago the top of the line muscle cars (XY GT, HG Monaro GTS etc) were 200 to 220kw and almost young people owned them because they were over a years wages and there was no stupid free credit (no depost, no interest for 100 years, no payments until 2025).

When WE the old buggers who are doing this to you were P platers a V8 was a 110kw 253 and only the rich had them. Ricer rockets did not exist. Most of us had crap 6 cylinder kingswoods and falcons that did about 140km/h flat out and a 400m in 18 seconds.

Because of this by the time we got into faster cars we had 10 years driving experience because it took that long to save up to buy one.

N.B I realise the concept of "save up" is difficult for you to understand. It means you actually have the money in the bank before you buy something.

Right now a person who got his/her licence yesterday can buy a VT2 SS or a XR6T which is capable of going faster and out accellerating a Phase 3 GTHO. The problem is that at speed things happen fast and if you are not very practiced and switched on then when something goes wrong YOU WILL DIE.

Every P plater in the world is an excellent driver, better than most on the road. I know I was. There is nothing that anyone can say that will convince you otherwise.

The problem is you are not very good at driving. This is not because you are young, it is because you have not done much of it.
The more hours in command of the wheel, the better you will get. There are no shortcuts.
This means that a P plater with 1 years experience that consists of 2000km per week will probably be a MUCH better driver than a 40 year old who has held a licence for 20 years and only drives to the shops every second weekend and once a year drive up the coast to the beach house 150km away.
But most people, including P platers, do very little actual driving.

In aviation you are required to keep a log book of evey hour flown and until you have minimums you are restricted in what you can do.
e.g. 20 hrs min before you can carry a passenger in the training area, 40 hours minimum before leaving the training area, 150 hours minimum before you can carry a passenger for money etc.
This is not automatic, this is what you need before you can do the tests.
To fly a small regional (30-40 seat) aircraft, 1000hrs, 2 renewals on flying in cloud, 100hr of night, 250hrs of flying multi engines and THEN the test.

This is a very safe system. There are bugger all air deaths, so few in fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE makes the news Australia wide.

Would you rather have to keep a log book (that if falsified will mean you will lose your licence for life) that needs to be shown to an inspector ever X months but will allow you to drive any car as soon as you are proven capable? Would you be happy to have to re do your driving test every 2 years and if you fail are not allowed to drive until you pass even if you need your licence for your job?
You used to be able to just get a pilot's licence and away you went. After many many accidents it was decided to make it is bit more difficult and expect a bit of proven skill before letting you loose in a high performance aircraft.

It would be heaps safer and all of the drivers on the road would be much better at it.

No you want it ALL now don't you and you do not want to have to work for it.

This is why the restrictions are being brought in. To save you (and us) from yourselves.

Yes you hate it, but some years form now you will not hate it so much, firstly because you will have more experience and will see the new P platers of that time using the same arguements that you are but secondly and more importantly because you were not killed in a road accident where you lost control of a car that was too fast for you 3 weeks after you got your licence.

Well written. Remends me of the old saying... "There are old pilots, and there bold pilots. But there are no old bold pilots" The same analagy(SP?) can apply to drivers as well.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by flappist

Every P plater in the world is an excellent driver, better than most on the road. I know I was. There is nothing that anyone can say that will convince you otherwise.

Wouldn't ever dispute that.
I wouldn't know what the solution would be. Simply because it took couple of serious prangs for me to drive with caution.
I think the day we figure out how to instill into young drivers the responsibility required to drive and that it is a privilege to drive, will be the day we hear less about their deaths.
And since it is a privilege, I can't see why I will ever allow any young person in my family to have anything remotely powerful.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by flappist

Again, well done, good on you.
Drive it safely, they are a lot of fun.

I notice you are 20 so I suspect you didn't get your licence last week though, did you? If you had been given your sickem the day you got your P plates how do you think you would have gone?

The same as I respect the right to drive and don't drive like an idiot.

If I crashed my car I would blame my driving habits rather than the car regardless of what it was.

Ban the low performance driver not the high performance car.

I believe attitude is paramount to being a safe driver and therefore believe such laws only punish those who are responsible with their right to drive.

It's been proven. The road toll has doubled.

Yet there were many who preached about how good this would be and whilst concentrating on that the real cause went begging which is driver education and licencing.

What is the difference between killing yourself in a performance car than a "basic normal" car? A fatality is a fatality no matter which way you try to slice it.

[RIPGMH]

If this kind of thing was applied to anyother age group/demographic then there would be cries of discrimination left, right and centre.

[RIPGMH]

You hit the wall in a dato or a gt....YOU STILL HIT THE WALL

[flappist]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

If this kind of thing was applied to anyother age group/demographic then there would be cries of discrimination left, right and centre.

What you mean restricting new players until they have experience?

Well apart from a Pilot's licence there would be:
Heavy transport licence.
Mariner's licence.
Pistol licence.
Most heavy machinery licences.

I am having trouble thinking of a licence to control a complex or potentially dangerous machine that is NOT restricted for new players.

Can you think of one?

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

It's been proven. The road toll has doubled.

I dispute the statistics here.
There are a hell of alot more cars on the road,if we looked at the statistics verses registered vehicles or to actual km driven yearly would the ratio of death have doubled?
I doubt that very much,you'd think they'd have fallen..

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by nugget378

I dispute the statistics here.
There are a hell of alot more cars on the road,if we looked at the statistics verses registered vehicles or to actual km driven yearly would the ratio of death have doubled?
I doubt that very much,you'd think they'd have fallen..

Much the same as I'm waiting for the stats that show more people die in performance cars rather than any other car.

Regardless it has still doubled and that is still twice as many young lives lost.

[I FluXx I]

Originally Posted by flappist

A little bit less emotion......

Advance driving courses are great but they do NOT give experience or maturity. Only ACTUAL ROAD driving does that.

How can an advance driving course give you experience is driving in rain or at night with some idiot on high beam coming at you or "attack of the 50 foot skippy" or one of the many zillions of other situations that will occur during your driving career.

Young people are a victim of technology. There is nothing you can do about it.
30 odd years ago the top of the line muscle cars (XY GT, HG Monaro GTS etc) were 200 to 220kw and almost young people owned them because they were over a years wages and there was no stupid free credit (no depost, no interest for 100 years, no payments until 2025).

When WE the old buggers who are doing this to you were P platers a V8 was a 110kw 253 and only the rich had them. Ricer rockets did not exist. Most of us had crap 6 cylinder kingswoods and falcons that did about 140km/h flat out and a 400m in 18 seconds.

Because of this by the time we got into faster cars we had 10 years driving experience because it took that long to save up to buy one.

N.B I realise the concept of "save up" is difficult for you to understand. It means you actually have the money in the bank before you buy something.

Right now a person who got his/her licence yesterday can buy a VT2 SS or a XR6T which is capable of going faster and out accellerating a Phase 3 GTHO. The problem is that at speed things happen fast and if you are not very practiced and switched on then when something goes wrong YOU WILL DIE.

Every P plater in the world is an excellent driver, better than most on the road. I know I was. There is nothing that anyone can say that will convince you otherwise.

The problem is you are not very good at driving. This is not because you are young, it is because you have not done much of it.
The more hours in command of the wheel, the better you will get. There are no shortcuts.
This means that a P plater with 1 years experience that consists of 2000km per week will probably be a MUCH better driver than a 40 year old who has held a licence for 20 years and only drives to the shops every second weekend and once a year drive up the coast to the beach house 150km away.
But most people, including P platers, do very little actual driving.

In aviation you are required to keep a log book of evey hour flown and until you have minimums you are restricted in what you can do.
e.g. 20 hrs min before you can carry a passenger in the training area, 40 hours minimum before leaving the training area, 150 hours minimum before you can carry a passenger for money etc.
This is not automatic, this is what you need before you can do the tests.
To fly a small regional (30-40 seat) aircraft, 1000hrs, 2 renewals on flying in cloud, 100hr of night, 250hrs of flying multi engines and THEN the test.

This is a very safe system. There are bugger all air deaths, so few in fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE makes the news Australia wide.

Would you rather have to keep a log book (that if falsified will mean you will lose your licence for life) that needs to be shown to an inspector ever X months but will allow you to drive any car as soon as you are proven capable? Would you be happy to have to re do your driving test every 2 years and if you fail are not allowed to drive until you pass even if you need your licence for your job?
You used to be able to just get a pilot's licence and away you went. After many many accidents it was decided to make it is bit more difficult and expect a bit of proven skill before letting you loose in a high performance aircraft.

It would be heaps safer and all of the drivers on the road would be much better at it.

No you want it ALL now don't you and you do not want to have to work for it.

This is why the restrictions are being brought in. To save you (and us) from yourselves.

Yes you hate it, but some years form now you will not hate it so much, firstly because you will have more experience and will see the new P platers of that time using the same arguements that you are but secondly and more importantly because you were not killed in a road accident where you lost control of a car that was too fast for you 3 weeks after you got your licence.

I dont know about the whole aviation thing. My brother is a comercial pilot and he is learning to fly a metro (19 seats) and he only has about 300hrs. And his friend is now flying a 737 with only about 450hrs.

[Outbackjack]

New drivers need to understand that being a good driver is not how well you negotiate a dangerous situation on the road. A good driver will avoid the bad situation or recognise it much earlier. No advanced driving school can teach this "wisdom". It can only come with experience. We have all done dumb things. The one that stands out in my mind happened when I was 18 or 19 in country Victoria. A mate and I were hooning around some quiet dirt roads near Bright. I was in a little Datsun 1600. I still dont now what happened, but I was suddenly facing the way I came and down into a ditch after knocking down a sign. That sign was a pointer to the local cemetry..... That changed my whole attitude in an instant. I joined a car club and have been a member of at least one club ever since. From then on I only "hooned" at the race track.

I have some reservations about the new power restriction laws, but I believe they are a step in th right direction.

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by I FluXx I

I dont know about the whole aviation thing. My brother is a comercial pilot and he is learning to fly a metro (19 seats) and he only has about 300hrs. And his friend is now flying a 737 with only about 450hrs.

The metro at 350 hours, perhaps. The 737 with 450 hours.............????? Do you mean 4500 hours????