Vehicle sizing, market share

[prydey]

when we look at the vehicle segments of yesteryear, we have small, medium, large and lwb.

now we have micro, small, medium and large.

if we compare the sizes of the cars, we find they almost match up, except 1 segment up from each other, eg, micro = small, small = medium etc etc.

if you look at it like this, the market share of each segment is largely unchanged. people go out and by small/medium cars but their dimensions are largely the same as the large cars of the 90's.

we cry about the large car segment of today crashing, and yet when you consider the cars are basically as large as the lwb versions, the market share is similar to what lwb used to be.

so what i'm saying is, people are still buying similarly sized vehicles, but badged differently.

i guess this is where you could argue that some manufacturers have got it wrong. by building so called 'micro' cars (which are actually just small cars of yesteryear), and continually gradually increasing the sizes of all other segments, the segment at the largest end, is the first to drop off the wall, so to speak.

just a theory i came up with. i like it

[Ford_The_Win]

Interesting point, I think it's quite bizarre how the tank XF Falcon is pretty much the same size as a new Focus, they are deceptively large. That said, it's all about the styling, a lot of mid-90s large cars were designed to look smaller than what they actually are. Modern cars are bulgy and puffy.

[Ford_The_Win]

Falcon XF: Length 4774mm Width 1854mm
Falcon EF: Length 4908mm Width 1861mm

'10 Corolla: Length 4245mm Width 1760mm
'95 Corolla: Length 4270mm Width 1685

So they really haven't grown that much.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

Falcon XF: Length 4774mm Width 1854mm
Falcon EF: Length 4908mm Width 1861mm

'10 Corolla: Length 4245mm Width 1760mm
'95 Corolla: Length 4270mm Width 1685

So they really haven't grown that much.

is that for corolla sedan or hatch?

i know my wife's focus was not really much smaller than my eb falcon when i had it.

[Mr Hardware]

I'm going to come in here and disagree with the lot of you
I have actually been looking into this myself lately, and I can report this:
The falcon basically hasn't changed exterior dimensions since 1966. By and large it has been ~4.85M long and 1.85-1.9m wide. Every model of falcon since has been the same, what Ford The Win says about the focus is incorrect.

The LWB segment has always meant a car over 5m in length, of which the segment still exists, its just that one manufacturer doesn't make it any more (ford). You can still buy a Holden or BMW or Jag or Merc LWB car.

There are some cars that have increased in size. But this has always been the case! You can't tell me that a KA Laser and a KQ Laser are anywhere remotely similar in size. So nothing's new under the sun here!

Interesting things to note here:
It has taken holden 26 years (VE) to get the commodore back to the size of the kingswood
The current model corolla is a fraction wider and longer than the SV21 camry of 1987-1993. Oh and still only does 7L/100klms.

[prydey]

so a laser is the same size as a focus? both are classed as small cars in their day.

my fg dwarfed my eb. both considered large cars.

park a corolla or focus sedan next to a e series falcon, and they aren't very different.

its about perception i suppose, more than actual dimensions. whilst some dimensions on paper paint one story, the reality is quite different.

[4.0i_SiX]

Newer cars are taller for easier access, that is about it. When I park our BA next to the XL it towers over the old girl

[jpd80]

It's not the exterior that has grown so much but interior space,
by that i mean:
1) Small SUVs, compare RAVE 4 from 10 years ago to the current one
2) Mid sized Cars used to be just a fraction bigger than small car, now they rival large cars.
3) Light car like Fiesta/Mazda 2 are basically the size of early 1980s Laser/mazda 3
4) Small cars have increased in interior space to what mid sized cars used to be.

There is no longer any really true Mid sized car, no one want them because
people either buy the new super sized small cars or go to large Mid sized
cars like Camry/Mondeo/Mazda 6 or large cars like Commodore/Falcon.

It's really a sad state of affairs because mid sized car have been allowed to grow
in size to almost large car proportions yet are offered at significantly lower prices
which makes me wonder if the more fuel efficient versions of large fleet cars like
Falcon and Commodore are suffering at the hands of Camry due to perceived economy.

In a sad sort of way, Falcon and commodore are now perceived as being
wide heavy versions of large mid sized cars but with a hefty price slug.
I know the perception is wrong but feel this is exactly what is hurting
both manufacturers, Holden at least had a remedy with the 3.0SIDI but
Ford were really never in the propaganda race and are suffering badly for it,
EcoLPI and Ecoboost solutions can't come quickly enough for Ford, the Falcon
deserves better than it's present sales image, all bloody perception based...

[Mr Hardware]

Yeah i'm going to disagree with you there jdp80 on your point about people only want small small cars or pseudo large cars
With the toyota corolla and the Mazda 3 being some of australia's biggest selling cars, and them being right in the middle of the mid-sized category, that tells you that people still want medium sized cars.

I will say though that a lot of people who buy camrys are rather misdirected in their wants - at basically the same size as a commodore or falcon (save about 5cm in width), they are buying a large car in every sense of the word.

so a laser is the same size as a focus? both are classed as small cars in their day.

The focus was the same width but 3cm shorter than the kq laser. Anyone who called the KQ laser a small car was 100% incorrect - it was a medium sized car in every which way.

I think the issue he is largely based around perception. People are so incorrect about what they call small cars or large cars - anyone who calls a focus a small car is completely incorrect - it is a medium sized car. A fiesta is a small car.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

The focus was the same width but 3cm shorter than the kq laser. Anyone who called the KQ laser a small car was 100% incorrect - it was a medium sized car in every which way.

kq laser is 2002 model. i know i never mentioned it but by yesteryear, i'm talking more 90's, hence my reference to e series falcons etc.

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

I think the issue he is largely based around perception. People are so incorrect about what they call small cars or large cars - anyone who calls a focus a small car is completely incorrect - it is a medium sized car. A fiesta is a small car.

so now it seems you agree with me?

and for what its worth, my fg is 3cm off 5m.

mondeo, mazda6, accordeuro, etc etc are all similar size to large cars of the 90's, and yet today people buy these as an alternative to large cars, but they are actually buying a car the same size as what a large car used to be.

cars have all grown, which is why the falcon and commodore find themselves on the outer, much like the lwb cars. they still sell, but at a much smaller rate.

[1TUFFUTE]

ive lately been thinking the same. ive wondered how the falcon would go for ford if they start to make its smaller...not by alot but really do it for the publics benifet...new falcon...cheaper...lighter...roomier...effiecient. Either way id love to see them slim the falcon down and make it known...just to combat the growing large car disiese a little bit. i think its GREAT that it allready is much more streamlined and euro looking than the bulky plastic flary comadore.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Yeah i'm going to disagree with you there jdp80 on your point about people only want small small cars or pseudo large cars
With the toyota corolla and the Mazda 3 being some of australia's biggest selling cars, and them being right in the middle of the mid-sized category, that tells you that people still want medium sized cars.

I know I didn't explain that well, maybe it's more to do with the natural growth in size of cars.
The small-mid-large of older times have been replaced by light-small-mid-large
and in fact we now have one extra segment separating all of the car groups,
perhaps this makes some cars seem closer to older less aligned segments...

I'm getting old...

[Mr Hardware]

Originally Posted by prydey

kq laser is 2002 model. i know i never mentioned it but by yesteryear, i'm talking more 90's, hence my reference to e series falcons etc.

so now it seems you agree with me?

and for what its worth, my fg is 3cm off 5m.

mondeo, mazda6, accordeuro, etc etc are all similar size to large cars of the 90's, and yet today people buy these as an alternative to large cars, but they are actually buying a car the same size as what a large car used to be.

cars have all grown, which is why the falcon and commodore find themselves on the outer, much like the lwb cars. they still sell, but at a much smaller rate.

Okay, so a few things here. I certainly do agree with you about perceptions - so many people call something a 'small car' when in fact its the same size as an EH holden.

And I don't necessarily agree with you about mazda6 et al being the same size as an e-series. They might be only 10cm shorter, but they don't have the width. So people there are actually downsizing.

But I do wonder how many people had, in the early 90s etc, felt that falcon or commodore were their only option - ie everything else was too small, the camry (same size as a corolla today) just didn't quite cut it. So I think we're seeing lots of people turn to things like mazda6's etc because this actually fits most people's 'ideal' car size - they're not turning their back on the falcon, because they didn't really want to own one in the first place, but felt they had to.

This happened in my family in '94. My mum did not want a Commodore/Falcon, but with three growing kids she felt she had no choice. Until dad found out about the widebody camry, about the same size as a mazda6 today. They had that car for 15 years.

Now on the note of your FG being 3cm off 5m, sure. EF's were only 9cm off 5m. Also on making your FG look much larger than an e-series is the arched roof. When I looked after cabs, we had EL's beside AU's, and even though they're exactly the same size, the AU's looked HEAPS more massive than the flat-roofed ELs.

[naddis01]

I know we bought our Mazda 6 wagon for a few reasons. One is Falcon wagon is not my cup of tea. Second we didn't want the VE Sportswagon because of reliability issues and thirdly because a Mazda 6 is a large Car. It fits a 100kg male in the front and the rear at the same time with plenty of leg room in the back. It fits all the junk associated with 2 kids (new born and 2yo) in the back. It has 400Nm and uses 1/3 of the fuel of my Egas RTV. Why would you need a bigger car?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by naddis01

Why would you need a bigger car?

the question many buyers ask these days. the slightly smaller 'mid' cars are offering all the space a 'large' car did 10 years ago so there is no real need to go bigger.

[phillyc]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

ive lately been thinking the same. ive wondered how the falcon would go for ford if they start to make its smaller...not by alot but really do it for the publics benifet...new falcon...cheaper...lighter...roomier...effiecient. Either way id love to see them slim the falcon down and make it known...just to combat the growing large car disiese a little bit. i think its GREAT that it allready is much more streamlined and euro looking than the bulky plastic flary comadore.

I've been thinking along similar lines. Borrowing a 1960's euphamism / slogan. The new 'Compact Falcon' being the XK-XM series. Family sized, but with a smaller footprint.

If Mustang and Falcon are to combine in the next product cycle, then the return of the 'Mustang bred Falcon' which we know was in fact the other way aroud could once again happen.

Drop 150mm of length (100mm from the front alone with the I4/V6/V8 engines) and the remainder from elsewhere. Add in a 100kg weight reduction.

Back to the OP. IMO The biggest growth in cars came between the 1980s and the mid 1990s when much tougher safety considerations came in and the battle of the human bulge really came to light. As we got bigger, the cars that kept the same nameplate got bigger.

I think that cars, will either stagnate or start to reduce in size in the next model cycles. The large growth between models is rarely repeated these days.

[malazn mafia]

Does anyone else think that BA falcon is stacks smaller on the inside than an EF? Haven't got out a tape measure, but the EF feels so much roomier.

[Mr Hardware]

malazn mafia, one of the reasons the BA feels small is the centre console really impinges on the driver/front passenger knee room (ie room to move your knees around side to side)

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Does anyone else think that BA falcon is stacks smaller on the inside than an EF? Haven't got out a tape measure, but the EF feels so much roomier.

I know what you mean. It's actually the roofline and a & c pillars etc that give E series that 'roomier' feeling. The AU, BA and modern cars these days have a much smaller angled a and c pillar. The e series are more squared. Have a look at the cars that I have in my sig. The XD-XF and E Series cars have the best vision from the inside and I would say a bigger glass house than today's cars. Cars these days have a much higher and angled couple-like waistline.

[Powdered Toast Man]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Does anyone else think that BA falcon is stacks smaller on the inside than an EF? Haven't got out a tape measure, but the EF feels so much roomier.

Like eb2monty says it's perception. I went from an EF to a BA and there is more room in the BA. It's just the dash is bigger and bulkier as well as the chunkier pillars and lower the sweeping windscreen. BA has a heap more leg room length wise.

Like has been mentioned modern cars have more interior room compared to their older counterparts. Thats why I'm probably gonna end up in a Focus or Golf for my next car, as there is more then enough room for my 6'3" 120kg (reducing a little every week ) frame in this size class car now as compared to say the similar products from the '80s.

[Brazen]

With cars like the Corolla now being relatively large it presents a compelling value argument. In the Corrolla's case: All the electrics, airbags, cheap to run, 4.9% interest, good resale, durable for 15 years, fixed price servicing...etc etc. For about 20 grand brand new, for a lot of families this is more than enough car.

People used to have buy Falcons/Commodores to have enough room but if they can get away with a Corolla nowadays, I cant say I blame them.

[Buntz]

Yeah.... I don't think it's fair to say that people are moving away from large cars. It's just that now there is so much choice in the market, new brands emerging, and competitiveness.

Falcon is facing more competition than it ever has.... as well as internally when put up against the slightly smaller mondeo. Which btw doesn't sell as much as Falcon... but its only sold here and in NZ which nullifies that point.

It just shows that Ford has gotten complacent and too comfortable as a top seller here, and need to re-invigorate Falcon's package and image. Hopefully FG II brings it.

And yes. Car sizes have hardly changed, more evovled than changed... building up on knowledge and progress.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Car sizes have hardly changed, .

actually the total exterior dimensions did surprise me a little as they don't paint the same picture that i thought to be the case.

however, i still think that people aren't 'sacrificing' on space when they opt for a mondeo or mazda6 over a falcon, esp if they are upgrading from a 90's model car.

this is the difference. once upon a time you wouldn't dream of trading your falcon in on a corolla and thinking it was still going to fit you in comfortably.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by prydey

actually the total exterior dimensions did surprise me a little as they don't paint the same picture that i thought to be the case.

however, i still think that people aren't 'sacrificing' on space when they opt for a mondeo or mazda6 over a falcon, esp if they are upgrading from a 90's model car.

this is the difference. once upon a time you wouldn't dream of trading your falcon in on a corolla and thinking it was still going to fit you in comfortably.

Those kind of cars do have plenty of leg room, but they skimp on seats. I can only compare from a Nissan Tiida I rode in. Heaps of leg room and a deep boot, but I'd still go an Aussie sedan for rear comfort.

But I do believe that Ford has become complacent with market offerings. And they need to make Falcon the swiss army knife it should be. It hasn't really evolved as much to remain competitive. Nor do they market Falcon's strengths.

FG was a step in the right direction. More interior room than any Falcon before it. Now they need to devote some more attention to occupying even more space, and free up a bit more boot.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

FG was a step in the right direction. More interior room than any Falcon before it.

see, i'm not convinced 'more room' was a step in the right direction. i think making them appear larger is one thing that could be contributing to their lack of sales. the fact that many people are deciding on smaller vehicles tells me they aren't chasing more room.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by prydey

see, i'm not convinced 'more room' was a step in the right direction. i think making them appear larger is one thing that could be contributing to their lack of sales. the fact that many people are deciding on smaller vehicles tells me they aren't chasing more room.

Exterior dimensions actually appeared smaller. In fact they are. The wheel base increased, but they shrank the car around it.

It's still supposed to be an E segment car. But is as small as an E segment car could be. And with only slightly larger proportions than Mondeo, I'd wager Falcon offers more interior room, but with the power expected from it's segment. But it's also a car lacking in technology. But hopefully thanks to 'One Ford' Falcon can get more drop-in tech from around the world to increase it's value. That's also the funny thing about value, it's perceivable by the customer. And customers are people that look at comparison charts... not exactly what they're looking at.

[BrisVegas]

I can see a time when FPV Falcons are the only ones left and Fiesta/Focus/Fusion (aka Mondeo next release) are our bread and butter fords. I can also see the next gen Mustang being sold here alongside the Falcon as a 'sports car' offering.

Having used a Focus and Fiesta in recent years as our family cars, they are big enough. A Mondeo would be the option if you want truly massive room. I'd like to see the C-Max and S-Max out here so ford have 7 seat options.

People who want to tow boats and vans will get Territories or Ranger T6 SUVs.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

see, i'm not convinced 'more room' was a step in the right direction. i think making them appear larger is one thing that could be contributing to their lack of sales. the fact that many people are deciding on smaller vehicles tells me they aren't chasing more room.

It's more a question of how much car do you need and for most people, the answer is a small car...

well what passes for a small car ...so let's say a car that starts around late teens and tops out at mid thirtys..
Here's a interesting question, if you could expand a Focus, make the interior 100 mm wider and
the rear leg room 75 mm more, how much different inside would that feel to our current Falcon?

And what price would you sell the new car for?

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by BrisVegas

I can see a time when FPV Falcons are the only ones left and Fiesta/Focus/Fusion (aka Mondeo next release) are our bread and butter fords. I can also see the next gen Mustang being sold here alongside the Falcon as a 'sports car' offering.

Having used a Focus and Fiesta in recent years as our family cars, they are big enough. A Mondeo would be the option if you want truly massive room. I'd like to see the C-Max and S-Max out here so ford have 7 seat options.

People who want to tow boats and vans will get Territories or Ranger T6 SUVs.

I think FPV will cease to exist or all they will be doing is re-badging Mustangs and whatever this 4 door derivative is. Falcon could disappear altogether and we will be left with the imported Mondeo and whatever form the Taurus takes.

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Falcon could disappear altogether and we will be left with the imported Mondeo and whatever form the Taurus takes.

I still don't see how the Taurus will ever work.

It's enormous.

It's FWD.

Just as, if not thirstier than a Falcon.

Cramped interior for a car of it's size.