Doctors and Very Old Drivers

[gutza]

Hi All.

Came across this sad story this morning.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/driver-101...101746575.html

First off, not sure if his license may have been revoked a while back.

But if he had a valid license, is there some sought of legal responsibility for a Doctor ( I'm sure he probably had regular visits ) to do something.

If the driver had family, what about them ?

101 years old ......

Most likely the accident was probably health related.

Luckily no-one else was killed, especially a child .....

[aussiblue]

Let's wait for the Police and Coroner's Reports before jumping to conclusions.

[Bossxr8]

Should never even have a licence at that age, even if was tested and did ok. The reactions would be glacial slow and the chances of having a medical episode would be much, much higher than a person of younger age.

Surely there comes an age where you licence should be automatically cancelled. 90?

Can't ever say i've seen a 90 yr old be in good enough shape that I thought them driving was a good idea.

[aussiblue]

I know a 98 year old lady that still drives and I believe she is physically and mentally fitter than a lot of 50 years olds and younger and I have no concerns about her continuing to drive. But yes she is certainly is exceptional and most people perceive her to be much younger. And yes her GP knows her age and she insists on her own volition in having a physical twice a year. She reminds me a lot of Dinah Lee another exceptionally fit on the ball old lady albeit still much younger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWpaJIV1eY0 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinah_Lee "By 1984, she had become involved in body building winning the 'Australian Female Body Builder of the Year' in the over 35s category. In the 1990s and 2000s, Lee continued performing on the club circuit and became a motivational speaker." I think Dinah will still be rocking when she is 100 too.

[gutza]

Hi Guys.

Didn't want to start a bun-fight

I have absolutely nothing against older drivers, as long as they are safe and competent.

But, I must admit, if this guy had a valid licence at his age, I would be a bit reluctant to get in the passenger seat. No offense.

[LG17]

My father in law was driving all over the country until just before he died at 99.
He could keep up with the best of them.

[fiestaz]

My grandfather gave his licence up in his early 80s as he felt he did not have the reaction times that he used to and no longer felt comfortable behind the wheel. If a elderly person can be deemed legitimately healthy and easily pass driving tests then absolutely they should be able to continue on.

In saying that doctors should be a lot more strict about it then what many are.

[Peter B - CV8]

My (late) Dad drove until age 96. Never had an accident or speeding fine in all that time. He did however start to misjudge things in his last 6 months & put a few scrapes on the car... We had a quiet word with his GP when it was time for his annual Drivers/Medical Cert time & the doctor told him it was time to give up driving. Dad was upset - but understood that it was getting a bit beyond him.
I then took him shopping once a week, Bank, Doctor, chemist etc & continue to do so for his widow. Luckily I'm self employed - but it does chew up a full day once a week & not everyone would be able, or willing, to do this.

[Cav]

We, well not me, I'm talking about the royal we, do deteriorate with age.

You name it, it deteriorates.

The only exception I can find is ear hair; it gets worse with age.

Nasal hair can be another bother.

I recently had my cataracts fixed and I can't believe the number of wrinkles on my wife's face.

I checked her out immediately after I got a fright in the bathroom. There staring back at me in the mirror was this old bloke with wrinkles, skin blemishes, bags under his eyes; and hair growing out of his ears!

It begs the question. When you have grey hair everywhere on ya face and head, why are ear hairs black?

I now can empathise with people who have been in a coma for a number of years and wake up in horror at how their body has "changed."

So how did I cope driving the car, and more importantly, towing a caravan?

It was ezy. First, there was my wife who is able to do a running commentary on road hazards ahead and behind me; and she also has the innate ability to advise me of a parking space once we have passed it.

Then there are the grandkids. When they stop bickering in the back seat I know I am steering towards danger, so I keep a lookout and turn my hearing aids up so I can take directions from my wife.

I have trained her well. She now knows that LOOKOUT! is not a word to use lightly and it should be used only as a last resort.

I'll see youse on the road, targets!

[b0son]

I think the medical needs to be changed for older drivers. It currently tests primarily for physical (eg. loss of limb function/mobility) or sensory (hearing/visual acuity) deficits.

IME, the biggest issue with older drivers is their ability to keep track of what's going on around them. They seem to drive in a bubble, and the older they get, the smaller the bubble - blissfully ignorant of the traffic around them or their effect on it. If not a physical driving test on the road, the simulated one to test their crash avoidance/risk perception.

Years ago, when the stats were still available, I found that the crash rate of P platers versus 75+ was quite similar per km travelled. What was significant though was that P platers predominately had single vehicle crashes, 75+ frequently involved others. I think a review into that age-group's fitness to drive is long overdue.

[Ben73]

Sad story. I have wondered if some doctors don't want to hurt the feelings of regular patients and are a bit more lenient.

Outlier stories are just stories. There are teenagers who could out drive every single person on this forum, but that doesn't mean teenagers are the best drivers as a group.
Isn't it the oldest age group that has the highest number of fatalities for distance traveled?

[Mowdit]

He was lucky to remember where the keys were
At that age maybe he wanted one last cruise
Or chose an instant form of euthanasia.......
I'd gladly hand over my license today to get a guarantee to live to 101

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Should never even have a licence at that age, even if was tested and did ok. The reactions would be glacial slow and the chances of having a medical episode would be much, much higher than a person of younger age.

Surely there comes an age where you licence should be automatically cancelled. 90?

Can't ever say i've seen a 90 yr old be in good enough shape that I thought them driving was a good idea.

I'm sure you fit in well with the nanny state rules.......

[zilo]

Good on him.

My father in law was 88 , had a stroke, which triggers a Vic Roads licence cancellation...(betcha you didn't know that eh?)

He lived in the sheet hole called Geelong .

Well, this guy was fully switched on, he was chief architect of the Ministry of housing in Vic, he built all those wonderful Hoddle street towers you all know, he worked directly answerable to the Premier.

No fecking way he was gunna be told what he could and couldnt do....LOL

He took driving lessons, 20 of them, he did all the written tests.

He did the driving test twice....and passed


They gave him his licence back....at 89 years of age...!!!

I drove with him...he displayed better skills than most of the drivers around him.

In fact he KNEW what the roundabout rules were..and i thought I was up to date.



So...to simply dismiss people because of age is ignorant by my experience.

He died of a bowel obstruction 12 mths later....RIP

[whitelion65]

He drove into more than just a fence...damage front and rear of the vehicle.
Blanket rules are for people without knowledge of a problem........

[jaydee]

When Im really old and die I hope its quick like my Grandfather and not screaming in panic like his passengers.

[GT450]

Most naysayers on this topic are young and fit and can't imagine being 60+ or 70+ and driving, as it's years away for them. Yes there are a few driver who shouldn't have licences , I encounter them everyday and a lot have Red Ps or Green Ps and some are older but, as a driver , you treat them all as you find them. I just wonder if those that think it's a crime to hold a licence past 60 will feel the same when their turn comes, I think not.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Officemanager

I'm sure you fit in well with the nanny state rules.......

Better than being crushed at a shop front by an elderly driver who pressed the wrong pedal. How many times do you see that? Every few weeks.

Or be killed in a head on by an elderly person who has a medical episode. Not uncommon either.

[aussiblue]

Better than being crushed at a shop front by an elderly driver who pressed the wrong pedal. How many times do you see that? Every few weeks.

Or be killed in a head on by an elderly person who has a medical episode. Not uncommon either.

The statistics show you are very, very much more likely to be killed by a young male driver. See https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-...tatistics.html and https://www.bitre.gov.au/publication...thly_bulletins etc

It's probably also extremely unlikely that an elderly drivers will be on meths, drunk, speeding or using a mobile phone (many probably don't even own one).

[b0son]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

TSee https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-...tatistics.html and https://www.bitre.gov.au/publication...thly_bulletins

Neither of those links show what you say, but I'm not arguing - young drivers spend a great deal more time on the road than the elderly, so they contribute more to road trauma as a result. The per km travelled stats (when I last checked) however show the elderly to be about as bad as young drivers.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

The statistics show you are very, very much more likely to be killed by a young male driver. See https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-...tatistics.html and https://www.bitre.gov.au/publication...thly_bulletins etc

It's probably also extremely unlikely that an elderly drivers will be on meths, drunk, speeding or using a mobile phone (many probably don't even own one).

Yes that last part is true. But they are both more dangerous than your average middle age drivers.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Better than being crushed at a shop front by an elderly driver who pressed the wrong pedal. How many times do you see that? Every few weeks.

Or be killed in a head on by an elderly person who has a medical episode. Not uncommon either.

Aussieblue posts says it all, can you back up your outrageous statement with facts as I doubt if you could.
I'd be worried about the drug crazed numpties or drunks on our roads before I worry about some old driver.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Officemanager

I'd be worried about the drug crazed numpties or drunks on our roads before I worry about some old driver.

Do you have a statistical basis for this, or just an assumption? I've come across far more bad elderly drivers than I have drunks, the worst of which was grandma on a 100kph road on the wrong side of the median strip. Narrowly avoided head-on.

You can re-educate wilfully bad drivers. But there's no getting around cognitive decline.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Officemanager

Aussieblue posts says it all, can you back up your outrageous statement with facts as I doubt if you could.
I'd be worried about the drug crazed numpties or drunks on our roads before I worry about some old driver.

You've never seen the news stories of old people hitting the accelerator and not the brake? Happens quite often.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

You've never seen the news stories of old people hitting the accelerator and not the brake? Happens quite often.

When i was growing up that happened at the local tennis court. 2 kids got flattened by a car coming through the fence. Luckily kids bounce, so the only injuries were to the fence, court service and the corolla. But age doesnt denote if youre not spacially aware and a crap driver.

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

When i was growing up that happened at the local tennis court. 2 kids got flattened by a car coming through the fence. Luckily kids bounce, so the only injuries were to the fence, court service??and the corolla. But age doesnt denote??if youre not spacially aware and a crap driver.

Don’t fully understand what you mean!!

[Tonz]

lets take this from another angle and I'll use my dad as an example,
learnt to drive before WW2, had his own 5t Bedford truck that covered southern Eroupe and then Africa, (he was a YMCA chaplain)
came out of army straight back into his job as car salesman at Ford dealership, we carry on through the years and approach his 95th birthday, the family Doc is pressured by family to get his licence cancelled, never had an accident or even a scratch on any car he drove.
He looses his licence and as mentioned above, does lessons again gets his licence back. Over a 12 month period he would do less than 4,000 ks. It was his total independence, his way of quietly visiting his bevy of lady friends he thought we knew nothing about. But it was his freedom. When they finally confiscated his licence in June last year, his quote was 'bunch of f morons, I might as well die, you wont get me on bl**dy buses.
Oct last year he was on the village bus (He had an independent unit at the retirement village, well the silly ole coot was giving cheek to another lady friend and missed the step and brained himself. Passed away 12 hours later.

Now Ive thought long and hard about this and dont think I still know the answer, but put yourself in his position, You are a safe (yes slow courteous) driver, never or rarely had an accident would YOU give up your licence, your independence.
Granted where he lived was not a capitol city.

[aussiblue]

Neither of those links show what you say,

The Death by Age Group Table on https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-...tatistics.html repeated at the foot of this post, seems pretty obvious noting also that, due to their frailty, and possibly prevailing health issues, the aged are also much more likely to die after being involved in an accident (e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3217450/

Older drivers killed were significantly more likely to die of a chest injury (47.3% vs. 24.0% in youngest group) and less likely to die of a head injury (22.0% vs. 47.1% in youngest group). Older drivers were more likely to die at a date after the crash date (“delayed death”), as were males (p=0.003). A 16-year-old driver had a 10.8%–12.0% probability of delayed death, while a 75-year-old had a 20.7%–22.7% probability. For those having a delayed death, the length of the delay increased significantly with age (2.9 days for age 16 vs. 7.9 for age 75). A subjective assessment of the case files indicated that frailty or a pre-existing health condition played a role in 4.3% of the younger drivers’ deaths, but 50.0% of the older group.

:

And https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafe...ers/index.html

Older drivers, particularly those aged 75+, have higher crash death rates than middle-aged drivers (aged 35-54).3 Higher crash death rates among this age group are primarily due to increased vulnerability to injury in a crash.

Deaths By Age Group
Year 0-16 17-25 26-39 40-64 65-74 >75 Total
2008 87 377 345 395 86 147 1437
2009 106 362 355 445 94 129 1491
2010 74 336 305 418 97 122 1353
2011 93 280 275 398 83 148 1277
2012 70 284 300 400 96 149 1300
2013 66 230 243 374 118 156 1187
2014 65 235 251 359 109 130 1151
2015 65 225 272 373 118 152 1205
2016 60 265 290 412 103 163 1293
2017 48 238 245 382 128 184 1225
2018 51 226 257 362 114 130 1146

[b0son]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

The Death by Age Group Table on https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-...tatistics.html repeated at the foot of this post, seems pretty obvious

How so? It says nothing about the proportion of those deaths that were driver vs passenger, who was at fault, or whether they were multi or single vehicle crashes. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that you havent provided any stats that support it.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

The statistics show you are very, very much more likely to be killed by a young male driver. See https://www.budgetdirect.com.au/car-...tatistics.html and https://www.bitre.gov.au/publication...thly_bulletins etc

It's probably also extremely unlikely that an elderly drivers will be on meths, drunk, speeding or using a mobile phone (many probably don't even own one).

Looking at raw numbers is deceiving. Without diving deeper you could say.

NSW (354 deaths) is more dangerous than NT (50 deaths)

The faster you drive the safer you are.
(Deaths in 100km/h zone 334)
(Deaths in 110km/h zone 145)

40- 60 years olds are the worst drivers on the road since they have the highest number of deaths for an age group
(362 deaths)


None of the above statements are true even though the raw numbers support those claims.