China carmaker looks to lap GM, Volkswagen

[act2617]

After years of partnering with automakers, company says it will produce, export its own car, paper reports.
April 5, 2006: 11:28 AM EDT

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) - After years spent working with General Motors and Volkswagen, the Chinese automaker Shanghai Automotive Industry Group is now planning to go at it alone, according to a report published Wednesday.

The government-owned automaker said the move will ultimately result in the production of its own luxury sedan, which it plans to start building within the

"This is a watershed in the development of the auto industry in China," Michael Dunne, president of Automotive Resources Asia told the paper. "The Chinese formed joint ventures for one purpose: to learn how to do it themselves one day. That day is here."

During their partnership, Shanghai helped produce thousands of Buicks, Chevys as well as Volkswagen Passats, the Journal reported, at the same time gaining technical knowledge and experience from the two automakers.

A spokeswoman for the Chinese company told the paper that the move will help develop a "healthy" rivalry with GM and Volkswagen.

The news may be viewed as adding to GM's woes, which is struggling against a host of problems including an eroding market share, a $10.6 billion loss last year, a restatement of results and a potential strike at the bankrupt auto parts supplier Delphi.

In a prepared statement, GM said it "understands" Shanghai Automotive's "desire for further growth," according to the paper.

Shanghai, which is planning on releasing more details next week about its new car plans, is also hiring engineers and managers from the joint ventures, the Journal said.

The chief executive of the Chinese automaker Changan Automobile Group, which works with Ford (down $0.18 to $7.50, Research) and Suzuki, told the paper his company also plans on offering four of its own vehicles sometime next year.

The vehicle Shanghai intends to produce will be an updated version of MG Rover Group's Rover 75, according to the paper, which the company purchased the rights to before the British firm filed for bankruptcy last year.

GM (down $0.47 to $19.07, Research) shares edged lower in mid-morning trade on the New York Stock Exchange.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/04/05/news...ghai/index.htm

____________

[Fairlane]

Can you say Rover 75?

I for one an appalled, as being a bit of a Rover fan, I though the 75 a great little luxury sedan and the chinese treatment of Rover was atrocious.

Now the chinese wll butcher it, when they reverse engineer it and will probably try to see it Australia in 4 years or so.

Id like to know what motor, gearbox and rear suspension they put in as well, because the 2.5 K motor, the ZF Auto and BMW's multi-link suspension are off limits.

[MrSparkle]

Government owned? Unsurprising to say the least, and I'll wager where they will be on the global scene within 5 years.

[apolloxbgt]

It's typical of the yanks to come in,teach them the tricks,and then for whoever they've taught to turn around and bite them (ala osama bin ladin).They never learn.

[EDManual]

What cars are actually made in China already?

The Honda Euro is, or is it Thailand?
Volkswagon Polos are made in China,

What else?

[new2ford]

Skoda is setting up there in 2007 - already in Bosnia, India and Ukraine. VW is selling through the Skoda brand because of quality issues at VW.

It's important to distinguish between vehicles made in Chine for foreign companies and native Chinese brands. The ones made for foreign companies will be as good as or better than from the source countries. Chinese products on the other hand are likely to have issues with safety, quality and so on.

They are also no respecters of intellectual property and don't hesitate to copy an overseas idea with a free conscience. Its a very clever country but they will benefit more from this than us western consumers (except maybe in price but then you get what you pay for).

[Homer1]

Originally Posted by EDManual

What cars are actually made in China already?

The Honda Euro is, or is it Thailand?
Volkswagon Polos are made in China,

What else?

Mate, you're waaayy off the mark! the Accord Euro is built in Japan (thank God!!!) and the Accord in Thailand. Thank God again the VW Polo sedan is the only Made in China car in our market ATM, but that will most likely change unfortunately.

My rule.....never ever touch any car from China no matter how good a deal you can get. They are poorly built imitation deathtraps!

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by apolloxbgt

It's typical of the yanks to come in,teach them the tricks,and then for whoever they've taught to turn around and bite them (ala osama bin ladin).They never learn.

They started that in Japan after WWII. They thought they were getting cheap labour to produce cheap stuff. The Japanese patiently learnt and then went on their own. History repeats itself as the Japanese look to other Asian countries for cheap labour and they too learn and start building stuff for themselves ..

[apolloxbgt]

Originally Posted by Homer1

Mate, you're waaayy off the mark! the Accord Euro is built in Japan (thank God!!!) and the Accord in Thailand. Thank God again the VW Polo sedan is the only Made in China car in our market ATM, but that will most likely change unfortunately.

My rule.....never ever touch any car from China no matter how good a deal you can get. They are poorly built imitation deathtraps!

There is an accord built in china,but it is for their domestic market and is not exported.They also build them in the us and the rumour is that the chinese one's are better quality.

[The Monty]

Maybe they will put the Landwind into production, under the GM banner?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...e+manufacturer

An old thread covering the Landwind

[parawolf]

Expect your Ford Falcon to be built primarily out of China by 2010...

[oyob2003]

300 hundred Polo's also made in China.

[chich]

My rule.....never ever touch any car from China no matter how good a deal you can get. They are poorly built imitation deathtraps![/QUOTE]

If the car is engineered in China - then yes, i agree with your comment. If you're refering to cars built in China as being deathtraps then i don't agree.. it really doesn't make a difference where the car is screwed together, just as long as the engineering is handled by competent engineering personel you'd typically find in Japan or Germany.

[Steffo]

I'd buy a Chinese made Polo.

VW adhere's to their internal standards of quality no matter what country the factory is located in.

However I WOULD NOT buy a Chinese car made in China, because that is a very different story....

[ltd]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Maybe they will put the Landwind into production, under the GM banner?

http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthr...e+manufacturer

An old thread covering the Landwind

Yes I remember that one. I just love the names given to these cars.
As it failed every safety test, they are going to redesign it and put in airbags to give it the name; "GOTWIND"
Then after mysterious airbag deployments it will be superseded by the "ENO".

When that car then causes severe injury and the manufacturer gets a class action ruling against him, he will name the next model "SEVERE INDIGESTION".
When this car again fails to address the safety aspect and more class actions are filed then a facelift with improved safety features will be released named "CONGENITAL HEART MURMUR".

Then after all of these models they will try one more time however unsuccessfully to produce a chinese car and this model will be known as the "DEARLY BELOVED" in honour of the company's deceased president.

[ronwest]

those who are old enough will be having a bit of a laugh at this thread....

The hysteria in the press/public regarding Japanese cars in the 60's should have sunk the enterprise but look at where they are now. Consider the post WW2 anti-japanese sentiment in oz + tariffs that Japanese car makers had to overcome.

As I recall, Hyundai were also pooh-poohed when they entered the oz market.

Blind Freddy could tell us that Chinese cars (as well as most things Chinese) will be a dominant force in the global economy in the not too distant future.

As for their cars, if they are cheap, we'll buy em'...

edit: clarity

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I'd buy a Chinese made Polo. VW adhere's to their internal standards of quality no matter what country the factory is located in.

Their declining standards of quality you mean.

But you're right about the manufacturers. A car built in China by one of the major western manufacturers is going to be similar quality (if not better) than at the manufacturer's other factories. I think what we're talking about in this thread is Chinese designed and manufactured cars.

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by ronwest

those who are old enough will be having a bit of a laugh at this thread....

The hysteria in the press/public regarding Japanese cars in the 60's should have sunk the enterprise but look at where they are now. Consider the post WW2 anti-japanese sentiment in oz + tariffs that Japanese car makers had to overcome.

As I recall, Hyundai were also pooh-poohed when they entered the oz market.

Blind Freddy could tell us that Chinese cars (as well as most things Chinese) will be a dominant force in the global economy in the not too distant future.

As for their cars, if they are cheap, we'll buy em'...

edit: clarity

Yes but Japan wasn't run by Mao-loving lemmings, was it?

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Their declining standards of quality you mean.

Declining my ***. We own a late model VW (2001) and several friends have recently purchased VWs (2005-2006). And the quality is impeccable.

[new2ford]

Seems a lot of consumers don't agree with you Steffo. Very average in JD Powers; Top Gear rates VW 21st out of 36 as a manufacturer - pretty much on the Ford level. The Dog & Lemon guide universally pans VWs and recommends the Skoda versions of all models as much better built (also reflected in Power and Top Gear). The D&L says of Polo: 'Nice car but expensive for what you get and the VW technology is frequently unreliable. The Skoda (Fabia) is put together far more skillfully than its VW sibling.' Might have somethingto do with Skoda setting up in China. So - VW design is quite good it seems but quality declining as I said. Certainly from the standards of the old beetle. And like most Europeans, getting lapped by the Japanese.

BTW - like the above guides, by quality I include reliability, not just what you get out of the showroom on day one.

[Steffo]

Don't take too many consumer reports seriously. Often you find people mostly complaining about what the salesman did, car smells funny, how the dealership looked etc - not on the car's merits alone.

You'd be surprised how stupid and fussy people can be - especially the wealthy.

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Seems a lot of consumers don't agree with you Steffo. Very average in JD Powers; Top Gear rates VW 21st out of 36 as a manufacturer - pretty much on the Ford level. The Dog & Lemon guide universally pans VWs and recommends the Skoda versions of all models as much better built (also reflected in Power and Top Gear). The D&L says of Polo: 'Nice car but expensive for what you get and the VW technology is frequently unreliable. The Skoda (Fabia) is put together far more skillfully than its VW sibling.' Might have somethingto do with Skoda setting up in China. So - VW design is quite good it seems but quality declining as I said. Certainly from the standards of the old beetle. And like most Europeans, getting lapped by the Japanese.

BTW - like the above guides, by quality I include reliability, not just what you get out of the showroom on day one.

Have had mine since October and it's been the best built car that I have owned to date, including my truly impeccable run with the S15. Having said that, mine was built in South Efrica rather than China!

Funnily enough I have had less issues (none!) than the old bloke nextdoor to us with his Accord Euro.. but there you go, obviously since that isn't reflected in any surveys it is irrelevant information :togo:

[ronwest]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

Yes but Japan wasn't run by Mao-loving lemmings, was it?

no, but given the social and political upheaval when Chiang Kai Shek and his corrupt elite buggered off to Taiwan, I guess it left the door open for Mao to grab power and rid the joint of unwanted influences. Actually he rid the joint of everything (good and bad) but thats a whole different story.

In any event, China has been slowly opening it's doors to the west for decades. I've been involved (off and on) in importing various bits and pieces from China since 1982.

Compared to the 80's and even well into the 90's the quality of their export goods has improved exponentially.

There is a trade "fair" at Guangzhou twice per year. Anyone interested in making a few bux is crazy not to attend.
http://www.chinadiscounthotel.com/cantonfair/index.html

As for Chinese cars, in 1992 I was abducted (a case of mistaken identity) from Qingdao in a Chinese Opel. Nice car, lol. I think I saw a Chinese Jeep (maybe a Cherokee) at the fair in the mid 90's. I may be mistaken on that but it was a certainly a copy of a US 4wd.

Anyone who has been to China and watched developments over the last 10 years in particular will have no doubts about the huge impact China is about to have.

[Steffo]

If anyone wants to see some cool Chinese build quality by a Chinese car manufacturer... look up the Jiangling Landwind... 2000kg 4WD based on GM's Frontera (carbon copy actually) - scored ZERO on NCAP - 60km/h impact head on and ALL the occupants die. Nice....

And then go to your local VW dealership and test drive a VW Polo Classic (sedan). And feel the difference between a manufacturer with proven and high standards of quality which are enforced in all its factories... and one with absolutley none.

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by ronwest

Compared to the 80's and even well into the 90's the quality of their export goods has improved exponentially.

Anyone who has been to China and watched developments over the last 10 years in particular will have no doubts about the huge impact China is about to have.

Absolutely. It will be interesting to see the direction taken by local Chinese auto companies in the mid-term. No question that the ultra-budget cars will be their big breakthrough into foreign markets, but I reckon that they will quickly want to compete in the "big leagues" against the likes of the Koreans and possibly some of the Japs.

The big question is will they (the domestic Chinese manufacturers), by then, have the know-how and the yuan to make this happen? If not, where will they obtain these things? Will they resort to "cloning" the processes and equipment of their rivals (see links below)? Will they try and create new niches, if they feel they cannot compete immediately? And as an aside, what course will the government take in all this?

It's a year old now, but this is an interesting read nonetheless...
http://www.autoblog.com/2005/04/16/chinese-copy-cats/

Another...
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/art...012852,00.html

I find it all pretty fascinating - but then again, I'm getting old now
:monkes:

[Steffo]

http://paultan.org/archives/2005/09/...in-crash-test/

Says it all if you ask me.

[ronwest]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

I find it all pretty fascinating - but then again, I'm getting old now :monkes:

I do too, and I am as well

I recall importing some air compressor pumps in the late 80's. Had to hire a couple of guys to kill the rust and repaint them... Bloody hard work. Go over, explain what you want - agreement all round - stuff turns up and needs major overhaul to make it marketable...

Things have changed.

Just today a friend showed me an airfreighted example of a reciprocating air compressor in a cabinet. Finish quality is superb. Mechanical quality is what you'd expect from Chinese compressor pumps... very good.

Sometimes I wish I was a bit younger and a lot more money hungry ;)