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03-08-2011, 09:09 PM | #1 | ||
not here much anymore
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I have a mate who is fairly keen on getting his ute tuned, it is a 200kw motor with headers and exhaust, bigger intake and manifold spacer and also has diff gears. Other than that it is basically stock.
Now I know we have covered this numerous times but I am a little rusty on all the options available now hence me asking - which tuning system and why? I've listed them below with a few thoughts, please feel free to offer your input. Not interested in which tuner does it, he can decide that himself, but more looking at which system to use. System: Moates Quarterhorse Pros: Allows end user tuning, not limited to any specific tuners - anybody can do it. This could be handy as his location is not close to any major tuners in Sydney or Melbourne but there are a number of engine builders etc that could do the job but just dont have the software. Cheap. Cons: Does it allow as many 'changes' to the tune as other packages? System: Sniper Pros: Cheap. Easy enough to do. Cons: Costs every time you change it. But don't they all? System: SCT Xcal3 Pros: Highly capable tuning suite. Very effective. Supported by lots of tuners. Cons: Expensive compared to the other 2. Limited to being tuned by licenced tuners etc. I should also add that at this stage the initial tune would be a generic tune with the possibility of a custom tune/modification of the generic tune down the track. The aim behind the tuning is to make the most out of the mods already done and generally 'wake up' the car. Feel free to add your thoughts.
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03-08-2011, 09:32 PM | #2 | ||
Banned
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I've only had experience with SCT - don't have any complaints with it and I believe several variables are user adjustable with the XCal3 version. Now ordinarily I'm a bit of a fiddler but I must say the tune Spiro put in the XCal3 suits me fine and I have left it alone.
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03-08-2011, 10:39 PM | #3 | ||
pursuit ute baby
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 864
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if you got enough brains and perserverance to learn QH, why would you get anything else?
p.s. we all know this is for you aust. if you want something a bit simpler that a tuner can do for you, i think xcal3 is the best option. if i hold onto my ute ill be getting QH.
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03-08-2011, 10:46 PM | #4 | |||
not here much anymore
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Quote:
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04-08-2011, 05:04 AM | #5 | ||
T3 TE50 Blueprint
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You know my thoughts on this one. But if he wants the convenience and the job taken care of by a professional, probably stick with SCT. With the Quarterhorse there is a lot of reading and learning to be done. Which of course suited me fine. As for the capabilities of each system, basically the same because they are just tweaking what is already written for that particular calibration.
-Craig |
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04-08-2011, 08:42 AM | #6 | |||
not here much anymore
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Quote:
I know what you mean with the 'plug and play and go' setup of SCT, my main sticking point with it is that it is very limited to who can do the work. For example I know I have a capable workshop here where I am who could tune my ute for me no worries but they aren't an SCT dealer and they wouldn't become one because the demand for it would be so low - but if I went with QH they could do it because I would have all the gear for them to do it with if that makes sense. But that's my opinion and this particular car isnt mine, so we'll see which one he chooses.
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04-08-2011, 11:31 AM | #7 | ||
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I can see what your saying Aust. Well if its just the basics of altering the fuel table and spark curves, then any tuner can do that with the QH.
Turn up at his workshop with your laptop plugged into the QH via USB connection, give it a run. Make adjustments on the fly to achieve the desired results through either Clint Garrity's Binary Editor or Mark Mansur's Tuner Pro RT. I use Binary Editor. So as long as the tuner is familiar with fuel and spark tables (as if they wouldn't be), it will be a no brainer. Of course with mods a few more parameters may need adjusting. -Craig |
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04-08-2011, 12:34 PM | #8 | ||
Rob
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: VN Capital
Posts: 1,584
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system: J3 chip
Pro's: Much like the Xcal3 system. Chip plugs into the ECU. Can store multiple tunes. Tunes can be selected on the fly provided the switch is hooked up with it. Chip is cheaper then the Xcal3. ($120 for the actual chip i believe). Con's: Perhaps not as many tuners use this compared with other alternatives Also, i looked into this which was i could get the j3 chip pre custom tuned. All i needed to supply was a dyno printout, list of mods and other small details like smartshield/smartlock, series 1,2,3 etc. The tuner could then take all this into account, look at the dyno sheet and pre tune the chip. This is A LOT CHEAPER then a custom dyno tune, but obviously wont yield the same results as the custom dyno tune. but a tune on a budget this would be a great way to go.
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04-08-2011, 03:38 PM | #9 | |||
not here much anymore
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04-08-2011, 04:25 PM | #10 | |||
Critical Thinker
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Quote:
J3 is also not going to ask you to purchase the updated model after a certain period of time either so you have no fear of your tuning unit being obsolete or out of date. Support for the unit is here in Australia too.
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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04-08-2011, 06:40 PM | #11 | |||
not here much anymore
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04-08-2011, 10:25 PM | #12 | ||
T3 TE50 Blueprint
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No not at all. That's all a Moates Quarterhorse is. Its a glorified J3 chip. It just has the ability of USB connection to your laptop and live tuning and datalogging. It can be removed just like a J3 chip.
A standard J3 chip is removed and reprogrammed via a chip burner. This means that everytime you wish to make an alteration, you have to remove the chip, plug it in to the burner, update the tune to your new settings, and plug it back in to the ECU. This is a lot of mucking around, but the biggest problem is that it leaves you wide open for a possible poor connection at the J3 port edge connection of the ECU. This was my main reason for choosing the QH over removeable J3 chips. The QH is put in place and never touched again. I have a USB connection now in my glovebox so that I can connect it straight to my 10" Acer notebook, which also lives in the glovebox. -Craig |
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05-08-2011, 10:28 AM | #13 | ||
Critical Thinker
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Location: Adelaide
Posts: 20,374
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crakrz - That's pretty convenient to have mate. I like the thought of that style. Saves having to remove the cover in the foot well all the time.
Any idea on the cost of the MQH on top of the J3?
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"the greatest trick the devil pulled, is convincing the world he doesn't exist" 2022 Mazda CX5 GTSP Turbo 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander 1967 XR FALCON 500 Cars previously owned: 2021 Subaru Outback Sport 2018 Subaru XV-S 2012 Subaru Forester X 2007 Subaru Liberty GT 2001 AU2 75th Anniversary Futura 2001 Subaru GX wagon 1991 EB XR8 1977 XC Fairmont 1990 EA S Pak 1984 XE S Pak 1982 ZJ Fairlane 1983 XE Fairmont 1989 EA Falcon 1984 Datsun Bluebird Wagon 1975 Honda Civic |
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05-08-2011, 07:37 PM | #14 | |||
T3 TE50 Blueprint
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Quote:
Now I can hear some people already saying "You can get a custom SCT X-cal3 tune for that". And you would be correct. The $$ worked out to be about equal. But now I have total control, and I won't get told that my hardware is no longer supported 3-5 years later. Its not for everyone but it was perfect for me. I found a pic of the QH unit too. The black part underneath is the J3 edge connector just like any other J3 chip, and the yellow part in the top left corner is the USB connection. -Craig |
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05-08-2011, 07:52 PM | #15 | ||
5.6L x 2 pilot
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canbra
Posts: 15,037
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Craig, when reporting that you decided on the QH, you mentioned that you had to do a bit of research and learning to use the system. The question I have, when you learnt to tune, did you have any background / knowledge of the parameters involved to tune, or did learn it all from scratch? In other words, are you a mechanic and just extended your skill set?
Sorry if it is an obvious or vague question, just wanting to learn what the extent of learning is involved to get to the level that you have. Regards Stu
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2002 AU II LTD 5.6L 342ci T3 Short, AFR165 heads, Comp XE270HR-12 Cam, Brembo 4/4s(355/330), T3 5 spokes, LC-1 wideband, Whiteline HD swaybars, TCE 3K Hi Stall, PWR Auto Trans Cooler, Koni shocks, King Low Springs, Hurricane headers, 100 cpsi cats, Twin 2.5" exhaust. Quarter Mile: 13.73 @ 105.86mph Runner Up NA/DA to BF Fairlane/LTD Geelong AFD 2024 2002 XR8 pursuit 250 Custom twin 2.5" exhaust w Herrod modifed extractors, Tuned with Moates QH
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05-08-2011, 08:34 PM | #16 | ||
T3 TE50 Blueprint
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Good questions Stu, basically just expanded my skills a bit further.
I am an "Automotive Machinist" by trade. Which means engine reconditioner basically. I will say straight up that i am no expert and I have been out of the trade for 12yrs but I certainly have a good understanding of the internal combustion engine. As for the tuning of the ECU, I started from scratch. I have spent many hours reading on http://eectuning.org to understand the parameter descriptions and their functions. So while my wife is watching Masterchef or some c**p like that, I do some reading. I also downloaded the free trial version of Clint Garrity's Binary Editor from http://eecanalyzer.net to get a good idea of what all this looks like on the PC. Keep in mind 90% of the functions don't need touching. Ford spent millions on doing that for us. Its just the basics- fuel, spark, and airflow that most people change. Of course if you add different injectors, MAF, add a supercharger, change the engine displacement, and things like that, then you will have to do a bit more trial and error and ask more questions on the forums for your individual application. -Craig |
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05-08-2011, 08:47 PM | #17 | ||
5.6L x 2 pilot
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canbra
Posts: 15,037
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Thanks Craig. Good answer.
This thread seems a good place to ask. I have been doing a bit of reading and in particular the factory workshop manuals mention the use of NGS tester, which I have found is the Ford VCM module which connects to the car and comes with software for many functions on a modern Ford (and others). This unit, which is a dealer unit is what they use to program new keys amoungst other things. Does anyone know if you can change basics like fuel, spark and airflow with a Rotunda VCM? Anyone have an opinion on such a unit? Regards Stu
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2002 AU II LTD 5.6L 342ci T3 Short, AFR165 heads, Comp XE270HR-12 Cam, Brembo 4/4s(355/330), T3 5 spokes, LC-1 wideband, Whiteline HD swaybars, TCE 3K Hi Stall, PWR Auto Trans Cooler, Koni shocks, King Low Springs, Hurricane headers, 100 cpsi cats, Twin 2.5" exhaust. Quarter Mile: 13.73 @ 105.86mph Runner Up NA/DA to BF Fairlane/LTD Geelong AFD 2024 2002 XR8 pursuit 250 Custom twin 2.5" exhaust w Herrod modifed extractors, Tuned with Moates QH
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05-08-2011, 08:54 PM | #18 | ||
T3 TE50 Blueprint
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Pretty sure this only a diagnostic unit, but I am open to be corrected on that.
-Craig |
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06-08-2011, 06:56 AM | #19 | ||
RIP...
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 15,524
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This MHQ doodad sounds the goods.
So, once I have the kit, which is in the order of $500 or so, I can fiddle with mixture, ignition, etc, at will, correct? There's no restrictions as to who does it, I will have all the necessary stuff to do it myself at home, on a dyno, or at the track, correct? I have 2 XR8's, am I able to get just another chip and the the same to it? Or would I need another complete kit? The biggest hurdle is the learning curve of the software? And lastly, am I correct in that as soon as the chip is pulled from the ECU, it's all back to standard? .
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06-08-2011, 09:48 AM | #20 | |||
5.6L x 2 pilot
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canbra
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Quote:
Stu
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2002 AU II LTD 5.6L 342ci T3 Short, AFR165 heads, Comp XE270HR-12 Cam, Brembo 4/4s(355/330), T3 5 spokes, LC-1 wideband, Whiteline HD swaybars, TCE 3K Hi Stall, PWR Auto Trans Cooler, Koni shocks, King Low Springs, Hurricane headers, 100 cpsi cats, Twin 2.5" exhaust. Quarter Mile: 13.73 @ 105.86mph Runner Up NA/DA to BF Fairlane/LTD Geelong AFD 2024 2002 XR8 pursuit 250 Custom twin 2.5" exhaust w Herrod modifed extractors, Tuned with Moates QH
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06-08-2011, 10:34 AM | #21 | |||
T3 TE50 Blueprint
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Quote:
Firstly if there is someone more knowlegeable with these questions than me, please speak up as I do not wish to lead people up the garden path so to speak. The answer to your first and second question is "yes". Your 2 vehicles will most likely have different 4 digit catch codes unless you are extremely lucky. Definitely need 2 QH units, or J3 chips, whichever you prefer. I'm pretty sure that only one purchase of the software is required. The only thing that can cost some more dollars is if your ECU strategy is not defined or supported yet, and somebody has to write a definition for the software. Then you will have 2 different strategy licences. You can find out once you have the 4 digit code. The answer to your last question is "yes" -Craig . |
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06-08-2011, 10:53 AM | #22 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Newcastle NSW
Posts: 7,890
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Where do you find the catch code for your car?
Is this J3 chip & the QH one just a piggyback chip like a Unichip? If so, can the car computer "learn" its way around the piggyback as I have read elsewhere on here Will the QH work on AU III ?
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T3 TL50 #147 Silhouette Auto ESS - Brembos - Last of 3 in T3 spec, only AUIII TL50 ever built -14.2 sec @ 98mph bog stock. Only customer ordered T3 TL50 built, only LWB sedan plated AUIII and the last performance enhanced LWB sedan built by Ford Aust. AUII Fairlane Ghia Sportsman 5.0L in Blue Pearl OWN THE ROAD |
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06-08-2011, 10:56 AM | #23 | ||
5.6L x 2 pilot
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canbra
Posts: 15,037
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This is awesome Craig. I have been reading non stop since you provided the links last night. I am hooked. The MQH option appears to be very very doable - just a lot of reading and learning to do!
Quick question, did you have the QH hardware when you did most of your reading / learning? It makes sense that you have the data logging functionality available to you whilst you are learning. I am hooked - I think I could do this! Stu
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2002 AU II LTD 5.6L 342ci T3 Short, AFR165 heads, Comp XE270HR-12 Cam, Brembo 4/4s(355/330), T3 5 spokes, LC-1 wideband, Whiteline HD swaybars, TCE 3K Hi Stall, PWR Auto Trans Cooler, Koni shocks, King Low Springs, Hurricane headers, 100 cpsi cats, Twin 2.5" exhaust. Quarter Mile: 13.73 @ 105.86mph Runner Up NA/DA to BF Fairlane/LTD Geelong AFD 2024 2002 XR8 pursuit 250 Custom twin 2.5" exhaust w Herrod modifed extractors, Tuned with Moates QH
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06-08-2011, 11:52 AM | #24 | ||
5.6L x 2 pilot
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Canbra
Posts: 15,037
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For those wanting to find out more, on the Moates Quaterhorse, check out this doco from the Moates website:
http://www.moates.net/quarterhorse/qh_intro_meyer.doc A lot of the basic questions answered. This is just getting better! Stu
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2002 AU II LTD 5.6L 342ci T3 Short, AFR165 heads, Comp XE270HR-12 Cam, Brembo 4/4s(355/330), T3 5 spokes, LC-1 wideband, Whiteline HD swaybars, TCE 3K Hi Stall, PWR Auto Trans Cooler, Koni shocks, King Low Springs, Hurricane headers, 100 cpsi cats, Twin 2.5" exhaust. Quarter Mile: 13.73 @ 105.86mph Runner Up NA/DA to BF Fairlane/LTD Geelong AFD 2024 2002 XR8 pursuit 250 Custom twin 2.5" exhaust w Herrod modifed extractors, Tuned with Moates QH
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06-08-2011, 02:23 PM | #25 | ||
Regular Member
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Location: Canberra
Posts: 364
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All this certainly makes for interesting reading. I was looking at all three options this week, and while the QH tuning package was tempting, on Thursday I purchased the Sniper package. I like the idea of the plug and play - set and forget, style this package offered.
I spoke to Matt at Bullet PT at length (who mentioned Crakrz), and we decided Sniper was best for me. While I admire those who choose to tune their own cars, I couldn't be bothered (I'm lazy ). With the Sniper it enables me to download information to my computer and email it to BPT, who can then pour through the data and send me a new tune via email. Happy days! No just to wait for the mailman...
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06-08-2011, 04:04 PM | #26 | ||
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Given Dave is almost literally over my back fence I'll be interested to see how Sniper works for him. I do like the idea of being able to send away your data to have a tune written but I like the idea of being able to 'tweak' it yourself even more so I think if (ah look who are we kidding WHEN) I go down this road, QH will be the choice I make.
For those who asked I think the catch code is written on the big white sticker attached to the ECU, generally a 4 digit combination of numbers and letters but if i am wrong someone will correct me.
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06-08-2011, 04:51 PM | #27 | |||
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06-08-2011, 05:40 PM | #28 | |||
not here much anymore
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06-08-2011, 06:44 PM | #29 | ||||
T3 TE50 Blueprint
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Quote:
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I don't have the datalogging up and running just yet, as my strategy was unsupported at the time I purchased it. Matt and I have organised to get together in the future to get it sorted. It hasn't bothered me because I have an LC-1 wideband to monitor A/F ratios. |
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06-08-2011, 06:55 PM | #30 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
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Location: Newcastle NSW
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Thanks for that. What about the catch code? Any other info needed from the ECU to buy the correct software?
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T3 TL50 #147 Silhouette Auto ESS - Brembos - Last of 3 in T3 spec, only AUIII TL50 ever built -14.2 sec @ 98mph bog stock. Only customer ordered T3 TL50 built, only LWB sedan plated AUIII and the last performance enhanced LWB sedan built by Ford Aust. AUII Fairlane Ghia Sportsman 5.0L in Blue Pearl OWN THE ROAD |
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