Electronic Anti-Corrosion Systems

[Express]

Since moving near the water I’ve noticed surface rust on many things metal in and around my garage.

Things like some tools, the lawnmower frame & stored exhaust components to name just a few.

These same and similar items sat around my Sydney home (Ryde) for years without any noticeable corrosion.

Which has got me thinking about my cars.

I know most new cars are less prone to early rust problems due to various treatments during the manufacturing process but that doesn’t mean everything survives unscathed.

For example I notice I need to be more vigilant with cleaning exhaust tips otherwise surface rust quickly appears, I also have some older cars around that I have no doubt the salt air would find to be a delicious meal.

Which brings me to my question, is there any value in electronic anti-corrosion systems or are these just a rip off?

How do they actually work or for that matter, not work?

What do other members who live in coastal areas do or is it just a fact of life I have to live with?

[russellw]

The theory is fairly simple; they are designed to create a negatively charged surface for the vehicle in order to prevent corrosion - well more accurately to stop iron and oxygen being attracted to each other. Corrosion is the result of oxidisation that happens because iron and oxygen have opposite charges and when they combine the iron loses electrons to oxygen atoms.

As to whether these systems work... there is no scientific evidence that they do although the theory is applied for ships and steel bridges (albeit in conjunction with sacrificial anodes) so I'd be inclined to put it in the snake oil category.

Cheers
Russ

[Franco Cozzo]

I've seen a few of them come through the shop, all it seems to be is a box with a few lights on it, end up coming in for current draw issues and have to be removed.

I had a picture of one on a Land Cruiser which had rust around the anti rust box

I'm not convinced, +1 for snake oil.

[Cobra]

I've always thought that they were a load of crap. But never actually having had one fitted to any of my cars (and not living anywhere near a beach), I cannot speak from experience. However, I am yet to see any real world proof which backs the theory of its science. Hence why I will continue to remain sceptical.

[mcflux]

The systems applied to ships & bridges utilises water or soil as a conductible medium in which the steel structure is immersed/buried. Cars with these "systems" don't have this same conductible medium. That's why cars rely on paint, a coating/barrier method, or alloy grades of steel with anti-corrosion properties, to help preserve the steel.

A really rough analogy for impressed current CP systems would be if there's a power line down on the ground (or in some water), if you step on the ground/water near said powerline you'll get zapped. A CP system uses the ground/water/s conductivity to effectively form a protective circuit between its anodes, the steel (cathode), and the ground/water. You stand next to a power line that's in the air & you won't get zapped under normal conditions, because the air acts as an insulator.

So why do cars suffer from corrosion in sea air? This air carries salts & various ions compared in inland air, which end up deposited on your car. If these deposited salts or ions carry a charge that differs to the steel, you'll end up with a form of uneven or "pitting" corrosion, which can get worse & worse over time. As for those rust surfaces on bridges/buildings that were all the rage 10 years ago, that rust is surface rust, an even form of corrosion that once produced actually acts as a barrier to prevent further/deeper rust from occurring.

Good ventilation can help preserve metal, to a small degree. Have a look at a street sign near the sea; you'll see the side exposed to the wind all the time is actually in better condition than the lee side of the sign, as the lee side has allowed salts/ions to deposit and start the corrosion process.

I should have started this post with how I'm ending it: These Electronic Anti-Corrosion Systems on cars are crap. They cherry-pick from corrosion theory & sell you a box of electronics that will not do its intended purpose.

[aussiblue]

There are two forms of electronic rust protection; anodic and cathodic. Cathodic protection uses sacrificial anodes is the one most people are familiar with. Anodic protection works differently see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodic_protection but is nonetheless still not suitable for use in motor vehicles because of the mix of different steels and other metals used and thus the risk of producing the wrong current density and actually higher rates of oxidation (rust).

[aussiblue]

Also see the post here: http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11378396
and http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11290587
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11210899&

And there is a god reason the FTC is the US has jumped on those peddling these devices (e.g. https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pres...-refund-checks
and
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/pres...-prohibits-use) they generally don't work.

[aussiblue]

And http://www.racq.com.au/cars-and-driv...ention-systems with the PDF link and note the concerns vehicle manufacturers have about killing ECU's and otherwise interfering with the vehicles electronic systems.

[aussiblue]

Of course the reality may be that:

a) most modern cars have good corrosion protection;
b) the peddlers of electronic rust protection devices know this;
c) because of a) the risk of significant corrosion on a new car fitted with such a devices is minimal;
d) because of a) many who fit these devices will think they work and give the product a good review; and
e) because of a) and b) the peddlers of devices can take insurance at relatively low cost to settle any claims if any corrosion occurs.

But I'm a cynic as well as a skeptic.

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

There are two forms of electronic rust protection; anodic and cathodic. Cathodic protection uses sacrificial anodes is the one most people are familiar with. Anodic protection works differently see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodic_protection but is nonetheless still not suitable for use in motor vehicles because of the mix of different steels and other metals used and thus the risk of producing the wrong current density and actually higher rates of oxidation (rust).

To add to this, Anodic protection is used in highly unusual situations (where the pH of the surrounding material is extremely acidic or alkaline). I haven't had any experience with this form of anti-corrosion.

There are two main types of Cathodic Protection (CP), one is Galvanic with sacrificial anodes ("SACP"), which uses the metals' natural voltage differentials to determine which is the anode and which is the cathode. That's why you'll see a zinc anode attached to a boat hull... so that the zinc's corrosion process will accelerate to protect the boat hull.

The other is Impressed Current ("ICCP"), which drives the voltage potential of the "cathode" down from its natural state into one which is passive. This is with the assistance of anodes that are made of exotic compounds as well as a power source, rather than your typical zinc or magnesium sacrificial anodes.

There are hybrid systems as well, but these are less common than your traditional SACP or ICCP systems.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I've seen a few of them come through the shop, all it seems to be is a box with a few lights on it, end up coming in for current draw issues and have to be removed.

I had a picture of one on a Land Cruiser which had rust around the anti rust box

I'm not convinced, +1 for snake oil.

Same.

Know of someone with a 2008 Camry, purchased new & had sensor installed. Lift the bonnet & there's surface rust on most corners & around the sensor.

[graham_h]

A product I know works 100% is
Waxoyl

My old man used to apply it to all his cars, and his customers cars (mechanic by trade)

Cars that he'd owned 20 years down the track still looked like new with no panel rust what so ever (of course the new owner had taken decent car of the paint etc)

It stinks for a good few weeks, it's "injected" into all the body cavities, chassis etc (a bit drips out on hot days)

These were on UK roads that were wet 85% of the time, back then they used salt and gritting trucks to melt the ice too.

[99AUXR]

Have seen a few come through work with them fitted doesnt seem to stop rust at all.

[aussiblue]

To add to this, Anodic protection is used in highly unusual situations (where the pH of the surrounding material is extremely acidic or alkaline). I haven't had any experience with this form of anti-corrosion.

In theory and the laboratory at least it can also be used to protect aluminium exposed to high temperature water. However, despite the theory and some obliquely implying this is how their car rust protection devices works, practical applications do seem limited to steel and its alloys exposed to specific acids and even then they need a potentiostat/galvanostat (potential controller) to monitor and maintain the required current density. See figure 14 here https://books.google.com.au/books?id...Ic#v=onepage&q for a simplified pic of how it works; perhaps we can try this with our aluminium radiators -yes I am joking.

I guess I only raised it here as some peddlers of car corrosion protection devices imply this is how they work.

[aussiblue]

But I guess if we get enough constant acid rain anodic protection might become practical.

[mik]

what we really need is ford to start making modern cars like these old bangers.

http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/feature...ess-steel-ford

[Cheech]

Had one in my Territory (bought from new and installed by dealer at pre-delivery)

Had to have rust repaired twice.

Once in Tailgate and once in engine bay at less than 2 years old.

Enough said.

[galaxy xr8]

I recently bought a vehicle (used) with one fitted, I have no idea about them and it didn’t phase me if it was there or not, but if they are likely to play havoc with the ECU in the future then I will remove it, as I don't live near the coast anyway.

[Express]

Thanks everyone for the advice and explaining how they work.

I suspected the answers I’d get because if they truly worked we would all be in the know and using them and therefore I wouldn’t have needed to ask the question in the first place.

[GTP534]

I had one fitted to an XR8 back around 2003. It was a disaster from the beginning. The dealer made some connections at the alternator while fitting the system and didn't tighten the nuts up enough. This was not known to me but, driving home along Parramatta Road on a Sunday night soon after the dash lights started to go out, the headlights went out, radio went dead, and I pulled off into a side street. One of the cables had burnt out and the alternator was shot. Once I turned the engine off it wouldn't restart.

Car got fixed alright.

After about a year I noticed some surface rust around the screws fixing the box to the car.

I think these systems are rubbish.

[wicksy]

waste of money, i use to work for tint a car and the manager where i worked said that too me, we use to replace ones that would rust out themselves haha

[2011G6E]

On ships and bridges it works...because of a sacrificial anode in the water.
Not sure how it would work with a car. I think it's probably snake oil, as said above.
Plenty of four wheel drives around Hervey Bay for instance have them fitted...and plenty of rusted 4x4's down there too...

[FPV-800]

Had one on my BA XR8 and disconnected the wire as it kept flattening the battery if I didn't drive it for a week , was ok after that. Is just a box of crap.

[mik]

Originally Posted by mik

what we really need is ford to start making modern cars like these old bangers.

http://www.oldcarsweekly.com/feature...ess-steel-ford

is it me or has that link failed ?
just in case , heres another .

http://www.rodauthority.com/news/vid...-deluxe-sedan/

[Carrion]

You could always try a Peter Brock Energy Polarizer and take up eating vegetables

[Beastie]

Just read this on one of the fishing forums I frequent.

https://www.finance.nsw.gov.au/about...uction-devices

[aussiblue]

Also http://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/announ...ces-ceci-units

[aussiblue]

See pages 27 and 28 of today's Go Auto News http://goautomedia.cdn.on.net/goauto...toNews_807.pdf

[xr8cam]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I've seen a few of them come through the shop, all it seems to be is a box with a few lights on it, end up coming in for current draw issues and have to be removed.

I had a picture of one on a Land Cruiser which had rust around the anti rust box

I'm not convinced, +1 for snake oil.

I am from melbourne and also old enough to remember Franco Cozzo, so anybody referencing him has to be telling the truth. Remember what happened with Franks son, ha ha.

[Pilko FNQ]

I did a cathodic protection course a few years ago. The topic of electronic car rust systems was raised with the trainer. He is extremely knowledgable and owns a company we source components from for the wet systems we have on our wharves and bridges. He gave a very impressive run down and analysis of the car systems however In a nutshell they can't and don't work as promised. I removed one from a troopy I had years back which still managed to break out in rust. It's still all in a bag on a shelf as I wouldn't sell something I don't believe in.