The Overland - end of the line?

[Franco Cozzo]

Overland rail: fears it’s the end of the line

Australia is close to losing one of its iconic train journeys, the 132-year-old Overland rail service between Melbourne and Ade*laide, with Victoria yet to *announce new funding and the South Australian government confirming it would not give any more subsidies to the service.

Cheap air travel has seen rail patronage plummet from almost 46,553 in 2007 to 18,737 in 2017, with the Overland cutting its services from five a week in the 1990s to two a week since 2013.

The 828km journey starts at $114 a ticket and is still popular with pensioners who enjoy the daylong trip. Country residents still rely on the service, which stops in towns such as Murray Bridge, Bordertown, Nhill, *Dimboola, Horsham, Stawell and Ararat.

The service almost collapsed last year when the newly elected SA Liberal government pulled its subsidy of about $1.2m over four years. In the lead-up to the Victorian election in November last year, Labor stepped in with a promise of $3.17m to keep the service viable this year.

However, that Victorian top-up funding expires at the end of this year and the owner, Journey Beyond, is so unsure about the future that it has disabled the booking function on its website for trips next year. The last trip available for booking is scheduled for December 30, from *Adelaide to Melbourne, which may be the Overland’s final ride.

A spokeswoman for Journey Beyond confirmed the company had not yet received any guarantees about funding. “The Overland has consistently required government support, which has heavily subsidised significant *operational costs to ensure *affordability for commuters,” she said. “Journey Beyond is currently exploring opportunities with the Victorian government to provide operations beyond December 2019.”

SA Opposition Leader Peter Malinauskas accused the government of abandoning the service. “It is time for the Marshall Liberal government to step up, provide its share of funding and ensure this train service can continue,” he said.

SA Transport Minister Stephan Knoll said the government would not shift. “This particular service has had declining patronage for decades now,” he said.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...eb4ed4eaacecd7

I don't know why we're subsidising this, if you go the Red Premium tickets its about $170 - you can fly between Melbourne and Adelaide for around the same price with QANTAS, and get there in just over an hour or so.

This leads into a discussion on people with their fetish for 'fast rail' services between capital cities - we've already got good airport infrastructure and services between the capital cities, with the cost of the infrastructure for fast rail, you'd end up paying twice as much as a flight and take more than twice as long to get to your destination.

I'm of the opinion we let the Overland rail service die its long overdue death.

[Adamz Ghia]

A fast rail line if done properly would cut the time between Melbourne and Sydney to below 3 hours. (Now I know infrastructure is not something this country does properly but bare with me) I reckon once you factor the trip to the airport, security screening, the flight and then mucking around at the destination airport and having to travel from there to the city would make up a good chunk of 3 hours on its own.

With fast rail, you go to the train station, get on and (as long as VLine isn’t running it) most likely leave on time, you’re not cramped like a sardine, and you simply leave the station in the city centre at the other end.

The Overland is dying because it’s an old heap of crap train that hasn’t kept up with the times.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'm of the opinion we let the Overland rail service die its long overdue death.

Or charge users what it actually costs. Train travel interstate is very much one for the fans, no sensible reason for a hobby to be underwritten by the taxpayer.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by b0son

Or charge users what it actually costs. Train travel interstate is very much one for the fans, no sensible reason for a hobby to be underwritten by the taxpayer.

maybe not the case of the Overland but.....
For me, at $105- $120 one way, full fare Wang to Sydney I think I'm paying enough thanks, given the train rarely runs on time.

Also I think you jokers forget that not everyone lives in a capital city and train travel is vital for country people who do not own cars.
Franco, try pricing a plane fare from Sydney to Albury then add the cost of trying to get to a place like say Wang from there. The train is the most direct route.
Public train travel was always meant as a service it was never meant to be a money making private venture.
My only beef with the way country trains (apart from the speed) are run are that most like Countrylink services (NSW train link now) are 3/4 booked up with 1/2 fare paying passengers or first class booked pensioner tickets leaving full fare paying passengers with little seating capacity left.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

A fast rail line if done properly would cut the time between Melbourne and Sydney to below 3 hours. (Now I know infrastructure is not something this country does properly but bare with me) I reckon once you factor the trip to the airport, security screening, the flight and then mucking around at the destination airport and having to travel from there to the city would make up a good chunk of 3 hours on its own.

With fast rail, you go to the train station, get on and (as long as VLine isn’t running it) most likely leave on time, you’re not cramped like a sardine, and you simply leave the station in the city centre at the other end.

The Overland is dying because it’s an old heap of crap train that hasn’t kept up with the times.

It cost $750M for the 'regional rail upgrade' circa decade ago, which in my neck of the woods increased train speed by 30km/h but only after Sunbury, which ended up saving something like 7 minutes on the full length of the trip between Bendigo and Melbourne

Imagine how much 'fast rail' would cost per ticket with the billions it would cost for the infrastructure between say Melbourne - Canberra - Sydney - Brisbane

This clip is interesting with the trains vs planes argument, it takes into account some of the costs, is based on US figures and political circumstances though obviously, it also confirms rokWiz's thoughts on the regional communities.

[roKWiz]

I can remember ARTC "fixing" the main Sydney to Melbourne line back in 2007......2009......2012......2016.......2018 one c*ck up after the next and now the fools want to double deck freight on our NE line to Illabo (Junee) what could possibly go wrong.
High speed rail !, not in my lifetime.

[Franco Cozzo]

This one is about the 'hovertrain' concept that never eventuated - do we have any resident oldies who were around when these were front page news?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I can remember ARTC "fixing" the main Sydney to Melbourne line back in 2007......2009......2012......2016.......2018 and now the fools want to double deck freight on our NE line to Illabo (Junee) what could possibly go wrong.
High speed rail !, not in my lifetime.

Don't worry, Melbourne CBD to Melbourne Airport train won't happen in my lifetime either

State Government circa 1990s sold our soul to Transurban instead of borrowing the $4B to do the Tullamarine and Monash Freeway upgrades, we have to compensate Transurban big spondoolies if we build rail infrastructure to Melbourne Airport. We even needed their permission to do the Melbourne Metro Upgrade because the tunnel runs under part of the Tullamarine Freeway.

I'd say we won't get Melbourne Airport rail link until 2045 at the earliest - as thats when the contract between our Government and Transurban expires, assuming they don't extend it again.

This thread is now our rail discussion thread.

Also Japan's Shinkansen:

[roKWiz]

We could learn a lot from Japans rail network but Australia does have its own problems ie maintenance, summer heat, tracks buckle, speed restriction apply slowing down the services.

The first video doesn't give much reference to what planes actually cost to maintain.
Also most of UK rail network was privatised years ago and is not public owned.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

now the fools want to double deck freight on our NE line to Illabo (Junee) what could possibly go wrong.
.

That's Part of the new "Inland Railway" Melb to Brisvegas..

they're already working on a fair bit of It as We speak..

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by hayseed

That's Part of the new "Inland Railway" Melb to Brisvegas..

they're already working on a fair bit of It as We speak..

Yes as only ARTC does, slowly.

I think they have it wrong, I reckon the inland freight route should have gone up the (changed to standard gauge) Shepparton line, straight up over the Murray, I have a sneaking suspicion they didn't want to reposition all of the change over train drivers who just happen to be based in Junee.

I watch freight trains pass here (Chiltern) daily and really can not see why they are bothering with double decking as it seems not that many trains go by.
Usually the Onesteel train from Port Kembla to Hastings on a daily basis and back, a few general freight, with the occasional grain trains.
Maybe 5 freight trains south and 5 north plus XPTs 2 down 2 up, plus the Albury-melb Vline 3 down 3 up.

Maybe this is something to appease the green lobby movement into thinking more freight will go by rail than road.

Wouldn't it be great to run an XPT Melb to Bris via that inland route, even if it was just once a week.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...eb4ed4eaacecd7

I don't know why we're subsidising this, if you go the Red Premium tickets its about $170 - you can fly between Melbourne and Adelaide for around the same price with QANTAS, and get there in just over an hour or so.

This leads into a discussion on people with their fetish for 'fast rail' services between capital cities - we've already got good airport infrastructure and services between the capital cities, with the cost of the infrastructure for fast rail, you'd end up paying twice as much as a flight and take more than twice as long to get to your destination.

I'm of the opinion we let the Overland rail service die its long overdue death.

Never underestimate the desire to avoid a) airports and b) Melbourne.
If I had the need to go to Adelaide, I'd happy take the train and use the time to do paperwork/design stuff. A trip to airport involves multiple other on-offs of transport from Geetroit via Melbourne: car to Gull Bus, Gull Bus to airport, luggage and screening bzzzt, getting there early, waiting around, boarding, up&away, land, get luggage, get next bit of transport, phew. I'm exhausted.

Train: no need to go into Melb, apparently it stops at North Shore, just get a lift from fam, on train, chill and relax, look out the window and see cows in much better resolution than from a plane, Radelaide. 60kg of luggage.

https://railmaps.com.au/routedetails.php?RouteSelect=32

Very easy for regional people.

[BENT_8]

Whilst im not surprised to see it go as air travel is faster and often cheaper, its sad really as its a good little trip.
8 of us took a cruise from Adelaide to Melbourne via Burnie last year, stayed the night in Melbourne and caught the Overland back the next morning, was a cool trip and the kids loved the experience of cruising and then cross country train travel.
The time literally flew by as we passed the ever changing landscape.

I remember riding the Indian Pacific to Sydney back in the mid 90's when you could go one way for about $160, now its 5x that off season, ridiculous.
Was a great experience though, passing through the blue mountains.
Nearly got kicked off at Bathurst on one trip as a bloke I got talking to in the old smokers carriage was drinking scotch from a 2l coke bottle and got busted, but when I told them id be happy to so long as they took my car off too as its quicker to drive from there than stay on the train, they backed down.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

The Overland is dying because it’s an old heap of crap train that hasn’t kept up with the times.

Let me drive it to Adelaide - I'll get us there faster

[guzzis3]

I used to work for queensland rail. The country services lose a massive amount of money every year. The only people who use them are seniors who's fairs are massively reduced.

Your money would be better spent further subsidising regional airlines.

I made the mistake of travelling brisbane to sydney once by train. 14 hours of pure hell. I'd rather do it by pushbike.

Trains make sense for freight and city commuter travel because the cost of the roads to replace them is massive, but country trains are a political convenience. Certain people would kick up too much of a fuss if they were shut down. They will die eventually though.

[Franco Cozzo]

Talking about rail - I've noticed they're refurbishing the Z and B class trams on our tram network, you see a lot of the old bangers servicing the Western lines, ie 57 and 59 trams are always the old crappy 1970s/1980s Z and B class specials where the Southern/SE and some inner Northern lines are rocking new E Class.

They've got the updated liveries, refurbished interior and I noticed the old sealed beams are now LED sealed beams with new LCD display panels on the exterior showing the line information.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

A fast rail line if done properly would cut the time between Melbourne and Sydney to below 3 hours. (Now I know infrastructure is not something this country does properly but bare with me) I reckon once you factor the trip to the airport, security screening, the flight and then mucking around at the destination airport and having to travel from there to the city would make up a good chunk of 3 hours on its own.

The Overland is dying because it’s an old heap of crap train that hasn’t kept up with the times.

High speed rail will never work in this country unless:

*Petrol / diesel doubles in price
* Our population doubles (or triples)
* Rego / insurance / road taxes on a car goes up (a lot) making car ownership the exception not the norm.

In other countries high speed rail works due to the above.

Most western countries owning a car to get around - even on the weekends is the way it's done.

Look at countries with high speed rail and it's the exact opposite.

It also doesn't help that there is little population between many of our capitals that would make the line economically viable.

With the overland route in question, I wonder if it can be utalised for container movement at night to keep the cash flow going?

I don't mind long distance train travel (either slow or fast) however it's often far cheaper to drive if time permits.

[Franco Cozzo]

Looking at the site for the Overland you can't book anything past the last few scheduled trips this month.

[nuthin' fancy]

I may just take the Overland.

Unexpected spare time now.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by guzzis3

.
Your money would be better spent further subsidising regional airlines.
.

Nice if every country town had an airport.
I can just see a plane stopping at every town along a route to the big smoke, it would take longer than any train.

And just like a train all the smokers would want to get of at every stop to have a quicky.


I've often wondered myself when I've been on the train, why anyone would use it to travel from capital to capital. I would definitely fly given the option.

Used the XPT from Sydney to Coffs a few times as the airline charge from Sydney to Coffs was $380 to fly !

[Citroënbender]

The idea that every public facility (asset) should be self-sufficient financially within itself, is a slippery slope. I’d argue there is a public asset “ecosystem” that takes in many things from parks and beaches, to iconic transport and famous structures, healthcare and justice, cultural traditions, history new and old. We should look to fund that as a whole, not to split the bill.

[roKWiz]

Yep, that harbour in Sydney is just one big money pit, they could fill it in, build more highrise and make lots more money.

[hayseed]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Yep, that harbour in Sydney is just one big money pit, they could fill it in, build more highrise and make lots more money.

Don't go putting ideas in their Head........

[guzzis3]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Nice if every country town had an airport.
I can just see a plane stopping at every town along a route to the big smoke, it would take longer than any train.

Stopping at every town would be insane but there is a running regional network now and if the fares were lower...

The problem with the other arguments is that relatively few people use or care about regional rail, it's just that the few that do are really vocal.

When coke changed the formula much of the protests came from people who didn't even drink it. They just felt good knowing it was available and unchanged.

Or another example inner city greenies simultaneously live as far away from the "nature" they claim to love while being the most outraged by the people who do live with it every day.

If the rail funding was redirected to air you could have one flight a day doing every 1/2 hour stop and another servicing the towns in between. That would cover enough towns to make it accessible while providing an economic quick convenient service.

And the smokers can just put up with it. What next ? injecting rooms ? "conjugal" rooms ? I want a vegan strangling room....

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

A fast rail line if done properly would cut the time between Melbourne and Sydney to below 3 hours. (Now I know infrastructure is not something this country does properly but bare with me) I reckon once you factor the trip to the airport, security screening, the flight and then mucking around at the destination airport and having to travel from there to the city would make up a good chunk of 3 hours on its own.

To travel that distance in 3 Hours yo would need to average nearly 300kph.


That's an average not a top speed so forget about stopping in Albury-Wodonga

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by guzzis3

Stopping at every town would be insane but there is a running regional network now and if the fares were lower...

The problem with the other arguments is that relatively few people use or care about regional rail, it's just that the few that do are really vocal.

When coke changed the formula much of the protests came from people who didn't even drink it. They just felt good knowing it was available and unchanged.

Or another example inner city greenies simultaneously live as far away from the "nature" they claim to love while being the most outraged by the people who do live with it every day.

If the rail funding was redirected to air you could have one flight a day doing every 1/2 hour stop and another servicing the towns in between. That would cover enough towns to make it accessible while providing an economic quick convenient service.

....

That's crap Mate just on the Melbourne line, there are at least 20 stops between Sydney and Wang, places like Gunning, The Rock, Harden, Junee, etc etc etc wouldn't have a decent airfield let alone commercial airport so what your saying doesn't make any sense.

Country people do care about working passenger services (maybe not up your way but they do here) Given the amount of people who board and depart from stations like Wagga and Cootamundra (in both directions) both being major transport hubs out to other places.

A train can move thousands of punters in one hit with more efficiency than any small regional plane. Have you priced the cost of air tickets to regional towns from the capitals ? They don't give discounts like capital to capital tickets.

[hayseed]

Very fast Passenger trains are nothing but a Political "****fest" that get recycled every election Year...

They'd be better off Replacing the 30 yr Old XPT (& other regional Trains). with something from this century.

A direct train service to the new Badgerys Creek Airport should be Top of the Agenda....IMHO.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by hayseed

Very fast Passenger trains are nothing but a Political "****fest" that get recycled every election Year...

They'd be better off Replacing the 30 yr Old XPT (& other regional Trains). with something from this century.

A direct train service to the new Badgerys Creek Airport should be Top of the Agenda....IMHO.

Apparently there is a replacement coming for the XPT. They could set the new ones up to entice business people to travel, plug in points and WIFI etc so they can use their time while travelling.
Greyhound coaches have it.

On Badgerys Creek, I could never understand why they didn't convert Richmond RAAF base into Sydney's second airport given there is already a perfectly good rail line to Richmond. I can remember the RAAF saying they were going to relocate at some stage somewhere else.

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

To travel that distance in 3 Hours yo would need to average nearly 300kph.


That's an average not a top speed so forget about stopping in Albury-Wodonga

The French TGV averages between 270- 320km/h, Japan’s bullet trains travel at 320km/h, and in China they run at 350km/h. The Melbourne- Sydney air route is the second busiest in the world (54,000 flights) and is only going to get busier, so the potential is there. Don’t get me wrong, the cost would be astronomical and there’s smarter people than me to do the sums but in 50 years when Melbournes population is 10,000,000 or so (projections vary between 8 million and 12 million) and Sydney’s is in that ball park as well a rail link might be handy, given that there’s only so many planes we can have in the sky.

If anything, building this rail corridor would be a return to the days where we were proactive in our infrastructure development, instead of waiting 30 years after we actually need it to get around to investigating it.

[Franco Cozzo]

China is the only country with regional high speed rail it seems, also look at the progress they've made in the past decade, admittedly they don't have to argue everything in parliament nor work on 3 year election cycles though