What will Holden do regarding Euro III???

brodfloyd · 02-11-2005, 08:27 PM

Hey guys, i dont know whether this has been covered, but I just read the thread about the XR8's costing too much and so on.

And it got me thinking about EURO III and all that jazz, what are holden going to do from january??? Im not looking to rubbish holden or its cars but i haven't heard anything about a VZ2 or whatever they would call it. I just havent heard about an update to make their cars Euro 3 compliant.

Reading MOTOR this month and the spy pics of the VE they said that the release date for the car was september next year, pushed back from february. So what are holden going to do in the mean time??? Ford has just done BF and the whole engine range is EURO3 compliant. I dont know about the V6 (i think they might be, or if not, fairly easy to make compliant) but i do know that the V8's they offer are not Euro 3 compliant.

Now, if the realise date for VE was going to be Feb i could see the sense in Holden not offering the V8's for the 2 months that they would be on sale as at least part of the cost would be wasted on making it compatable on a near-extinct platform.

However, it isnt, and even if it was i also read that the wagon and ute will be kept the same until 2008 and they have a large number of V8 variants, so i cant see holden not offering the gen 3 or 4 engines in the VZ range next year. let alone the utter pasting they would get from motoring journo's (some would still claim the SV6 goes harder/better than a GT tho). So in summary, holden will no doubt offer a V8 cos i would just be stupid not to.

Now, holden might just be waiting for the dust to settle from the release of BF and the 380 magna before releasing their new product which makes sense(and using their considerable publicity and marketing skills to promote the VZ2 or whatever they call it to the aussie public as the-reinvention of the wheel) but i havent seen or heard any sign of it, thought i may just be looking in the wrong places.

Or, Holden may just make the cars compliant and not call it VZII, though, i would think this unlikely as Ford did some pretty major work in alot of areas to make BF, and although not all of it was to do with being Euro 3 complient, some was, eg, not losing power from the engines whilst making them quieter, lowering emisions and more fuel economy, and from a marketing perspective promoting the efficiency/environmental freindliness of an updated car cant hurt sales. And i think that VZ is at least a year old and holden have a habit of Series2/3-ing things on an annual basis, so i cant see this happening either.

My question is, what are holden doing/done/going to do to make their range of commodores Euro 3 complient for next year before the introduction of the VE??? do they even have to do it if they arent releasing a new model??? Most of the talk i hear about GM and GMH is how they are gonna go belly up ( i live in a very biased ford area, and it sounds like although GM is globally in trouble, so is ford but not quite as bad, and it sounds like all a bit of a beat up anyway) and i cant get any sense out of anyone (my dad said "why u asking about holdens anyway???, dont make me take u out of my will boy!")

And, how far away is VE anyway??? there are alot of rumours about cost blowouts, parts/price trouble, and engineering problems (a rumoured 5 link rear end tho, sounds impressive, but man would it be costly, dont ya think) and the effect of the 11 month development freeze on the Zeta archiatecture.

I hope that made sense.

peace.
brod

FPV · 02-11-2005, 08:47 PM

None of Holden's V6's or V8's are euro 3 compliant(HSV has the ls2 which is euro 3 compliant).

Rumours were going that a 6 litre engine was going into the SS but HSV has continually shot down any of those rumours(But then again, who can trust HSV anymore. Last year had a whinge about the FPV Typhoon and how HSV is a V8 only company. Yet this year they unveil a rebadged Opel VXR and say that this has been in the pipeline since last year, and this is supposed to be Holden's performance arm.)

I think they will bring the VE range of engines forward into the VZ possibly detuned, so VE will see the full benefit of development. It is getting late however for them to hold off updating there cars. So im tipping the 6l ls2 in the SS or another 6l v8 of some sort, and the alloytec engines to get compliant.

fairmont1998 · 02-11-2005, 08:55 PM

Euro III VZ pilots have been running down the line for months. Both V6 and V8.

Steffo · 02-11-2005, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV

None of Holden's V6's or V8's are euro 3 compliant(HSV has the ls2 which is euro 3 compliant).

The 3.6litre V6 is Euro III compliant if I'm not mistaken. It is used in a variety of cars, Cadillac's, Saab's and Alfa Romeo's to name a few. It would be idiocy to sell a non-compliant version in the domestic model.

Fairlane · 02-11-2005, 09:11 PM

I was under the impression that the HFV6 and the HSV LS2 was Euro 3 compliant and the 5.7ltr LS1 wan't

As for what holdens going to do about it, i have NFI

FPV · 02-11-2005, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

The 3.6litre V6 is Euro III compliant if I'm not mistaken. It is used in a variety of cars, Cadillac's, Saab's and Alfa Romeo's to name a few. It would be idiocy to sell a non-compliant version in the domestic model.

In the Mitsubishi 380 advertisement they proudly claim to be the first australian vehicle to have a euro 3 compliant engine. Also im guessing the Cadillac's,Saab's and Alfa Romeo's got the 3.6l v6 this year, they would have to be euro 3 compliant as there 2006 model year runs from mid 2005 to mid 2006, and i don't think they will make any changes between these periods.

Donut King · 02-11-2005, 09:15 PM

word at work is that the 6L will be going into VZII and considering who told the guys at work about it I would be inclined to believe it

XAGSV8 · 02-11-2005, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fairlane

I was under the impression that the HFV6 and the HSV LS2 was Euro 3 compliant and the 5.7ltr LS1 wan't

Correct, what I want to know is what are they going to do for a V8 in their non-HSV models next year.

geckoGT · 02-11-2005, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSWXA

Correct, what I want to know is what are they going to do for a V8 in their non-HSV models next year.

Guess they will have to go the 6L and tell HSV to get over it, GM will not take a market hit of losing V8 sales just to keep HSV happy.

fairmont1998 · 02-11-2005, 09:33 PM

As I already said there are Euro III V8s already built! Holden have been building Euro III pilots for months.

FPV · 02-11-2005, 09:36 PM

I did a bit of researching.
GoAuto states "Alloytec and Alloytec 190 comply with Euro II emissions standards " this article was from last year when the alloytec engines were relased in the VZ.

To see the article:
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...ght=2,alloytec

XAGSV8 · 02-11-2005, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fairmont1998

As I already said there are Euro III V8s already built! Holden have been building Euro III pilots for months.

LS1's or LS2's ? Since when has Holden built a V8 ?

fairmont1998 · 02-11-2005, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSWXA

LS1's or LS2's ? Since when has Holden built a V8 ?

I'm referring to the car.

jabba · 02-11-2005, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

(some would still claim the SV6 goes harder/better than a GT tho).

Jeez your a funny fella. Ever thought about comedy as a career.

Bossxr8 · 03-11-2005, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV

In the Mitsubishi 380 advertisement they proudly claim to be the first australian vehicle to have a euro 3 compliant engine. Also im guessing the Cadillac's,Saab's and Alfa Romeo's got the 3.6l v6 this year, they would have to be euro 3 compliant as there 2006 model year runs from mid 2005 to mid 2006, and i don't think they will make any changes between these periods.

I'm guessing it is probably Euro 3 compliant as it was designed to be, but it needs the correct ECU changes and certification to be completed before it can go on sale Jan 1. The Gen 3 is AFAIK, not compliant with Euro 3, that was the reason it was replaced with the LS2. If Holden use the LS2 de-tuned across the range you will see HSV sales drop further as they will lose their major selling point. It will also show how full of crap they are saying the LS2 will always be exclusive to them. If they do bring out a VZ2 it would be such a waste of development dollars as it would only be on sale for 7-8 months. Bad planning.

4.9 EF Futura · 03-11-2005, 11:42 AM

So what is required for euro 3 compliance? Can this not be addressed by engine management?

For example, ford was able to keep the decades-old windsor emissions compliant until 2002 prior to switching to the mod engines.

Is there something inherent about the GenIII which prevents it from receivng euro 3 compliance??

vztrt · 03-11-2005, 12:06 PM

The car companies would have known about EUROIII. So I doubt that Holden will be on the back foot. If they can get the LS1 to comply to EUROIII than (as pointed out earlier) it will save HSV's butt. If they have to put a detuned LS2 in the SS than there in trouble. But I think they have everything under control.

One question. Does this law state that every car built after 2006 must comply of every new car sold? I think it would have to be every car built.

Bossxr8 · 03-11-2005, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

The car companies would have known about EUROIII. So I doubt that Holden will be on the back foot. If they can get the LS1 to comply to EUROIII than (as pointed out earlier) it will save HSV's butt. If they have to put a detuned LS2 in the SS than there in trouble. But I think they have everything under control.

One question. Does this law state that every car built after 2006 must comply of every new car sold? I think it would have to be every car built.

I take it as every car built after Jan 1. It would have to have a date earlier than Jan 1 on the compliance plate to not be Euro 3 but still be able to be sold after that date.

vztrt · 03-11-2005, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I take it as every car built after Jan 1. It would have to have a date earlier than Jan 1 on the compliance plate to not be Euro 3 but still be able to be sold after that date.

That would solve the V8 problem before the VE comes out.

4Vman · 03-11-2005, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

That would solve the V8 problem before the VE comes out.

So you're suggesting Holden will manufacture and stock pile 12 months of SS production (and other V8 Gen 3 models) this year with 05 compliance plates to tide them over till VE comes out late 2006 or early 2007?.......

:

Rev28K · 03-11-2005, 02:50 PM

I am betting that the new Holden 6 litre will be given a new designation LS-whatever. That way HSV can still stick to their claim that the LS2 won’t go in to a Holden.

Steffo · 03-11-2005, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev28K

I am betting that the new Holden 6 litre will be given a new designation LS-whatever. That way HSV can still stick to their claim that the LS2 won’t go in to a Holden.

Holden do not designate the engine. It is a Chevrolet Generation IV LS2 V8. Holden has nothing to do with what it's called, how it's designed, who designed it, how its made etc. They just ship it over and drop it in.

vztrt · 03-11-2005, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

So you're suggesting Holden will manufacture and stock pile 12 months of SS production (and other V8 Gen 3 models) this year with 05 compliance plates to tide them over till VE comes out late 2006 or early 2007?.......

:

I was actually meaning the two months before the VE comes out.
If you read what I said earlier, I think they VE will comply with EUROIII.
Weather it be the LS1(if they got it to comply) or LS2 they should have a V8 commodore. If they dont than they deserve whatever they get.

4Vman · 03-11-2005, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

I was actually meaning the two months before the VE comes out.
If you read what I said earlier, I think they VE will comply with EUROIII.
Weather it be the LS1(if they got it to comply) or LS2 they should have a V8 commodore. If they dont than they deserve whatever they get.

VE will be euro 3 complient but isnt due till late 06 i think...
Euro 3 is mandatory for cars plated from 1/1/06.
Gen 3 doesnt comply and won't be made to comply im told.
Its November 05, in 8 weeks Gen 3 is History.. HSV aside that leaves Holden without a V8 for the best part of 12 months.
Will they De tune Gen 4 6l or rush the 5.3?
Surely someone must know with only 8 weeks to go!

vztrt · 03-11-2005, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

VE will be euro 3 complient but isnt due till late 06 i think...

The date when this car is to be realesed is always changing. Can anyone confirm a date? and I mean something official.

4Vman · 03-11-2005, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

The date when this car is to be realesed is always changing. Can anyone confirm a date? and I mean something official.

this is the million dollar question, i heard Holden are struggling to get the R+D done with the limited funds and this will further delay VE, Holden have VZII up their sleave yet don't they?

brodfloyd · 03-11-2005, 06:58 PM

I must say im very proud of my thread, it has certainly got ppl talking!!!

MOTOR magazine which does know its stuff most of the time regarding new models said in this months issue that the VE was going to be released in september 2006, pushed back by development freezes and their associated flow on effects from an original February release.

Seems like everyone thinks that the VZ2 will be released with a detuned LS2 6L as the most likely outcome, but having said that, isn't the LS2 already to a certain extent detuned in the current range of HSV's??? For eg, they dont have extractors, and i thought from reading when they released VZ that because of the whole 300kw thing that they had given it a de-tune computer wise. Although, how much do you de-tune a 6 litre V8 before it becomes silly???
1 "gee mate, nice car what is it???"
2 "VZ2 SS"
1 "WOW, whats it got in it???"
2 "a 6 litre LS2 V8, producing a staggering 260 kw"

That sounds silly, but the LS2 is supposed to be the bee's knees as far as performance engines for Holden australia, wouldn't it weaken its image to detune it much, if any???

Imagine if ford released the Boss 235 in BF??? because in making it Euro 3 complian, it lost power. i know that isnt the best example as the LS2 is already Euro 3 compliant, but my point is about decreasing the power of engines, and how it is rarely seen as a good thing by joe public.

I know that the more they detune the engine the better the fuel economy can get, but a 6 litre V8 detuned is still gonna use more petrol than a 5 litre V8 similarly detuned, right??? it weighs more, all that jazz lots of reasons.

As has been said in 8 weeks or less we will all know, I must say tho, i do think it unlikely that holden would not offer a V8, ford learnt that one the hard way.

HSV would throw a total BF ( Fit) if holden did put a detuned LS2 into the SS (and think about it, pov pack executive with a 6 litre V8 option???)

oh well, i sorta hope something happens bad for them, but it wont

4Vman · 03-11-2005, 07:11 PM

The original Gen 3 in the VT was de tuned by about 25KW, the LS2 is a more expensive motor than the GEN 3, so prices will go up accordingly if they go this way.
Also i think there will be big issues with HSV and their owners if Holden go LS2, especially if its within 30KW's of the Clubsport....
In todays climate of high fuel prices and ever increasing presure and awareness of "green" issues i wonder if Holden can afford to risk been seen as having the perseption of "gas guzzles" in the lower spec V8 cars?

XAGSV8 · 03-11-2005, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brodfloyd

I know that the more they detune the engine the better the fuel economy can get, but a 6 litre V8 detuned is still gonna use more petrol than a 5 litre V8 similarly detuned, right??? it weighs more, all that jazz lots of reasons.

Have to disagree with you on that one but you have good points in the rest of the post.

macca_779 · 03-11-2005, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

The original Gen 3 in the VT was de tuned by about 25KW, the LS2 is a more expensive motor than the GEN 3, so prices will go up accordingly if they go this way.
Also i think there will be big issues with HSV and their owners if Holden go LS2, especially if its within 30KW's of the Clubsport....
In todays climate of high fuel prices and ever increasing presure and awareness of "green" issues i wonder if Holden can afford to risk been seen as having the perseption of "gas guzzles" in the lower spec V8 cars?

Remember VT2 Holden's and HSV's were seperated by 30 kw's
O and LS2's actually have better ecconomy than LS1's