Mental illness or just evil??

[zdcol71]

I have just been reading a few posts from different areas and got to thinking, what are peoples perceptions on issues that are related to a persons mental state of mind.
Reason I ask is, I have just been through a complete thread where a member of this forum has a problem... doesnt matter what, but he has put it out as a mental health issue and has had a couple of pages of advice given, on people to talk to, medications to try, help groups....all very positive and supportive.(BTW, I applaud the forum for being able to give this guy the information he has been given)
Then I'm reading through another thread, where there is a reference to an "evil doer" who obviously has a mental health issue (by virtue of the fact that the crime he has committed is so abhorent to all on here that he must be suffering from some sort of mental imbalance), yet the "advice", and comments put forward are so far removed from assistance or anything positive,as to make me wonder if there is a distinction between people who need support and encouragement for their mental illness that is decided by the fact that they are members of any given community(read, Forum) or not?
Only asking the question, not trying to start a major "state of origin"??

[SEZ213]

I think it becomes a case of the actions of the person with the issue...I personally don't see a distinction, both situations need help, and support. I think I know which two threads you're referring to, but then again I could be wrong.

I think it all comes down to a case of support networks - people who are part of a network such as this (who've been here for a while) seem to have a larger support network than those who aren't part of these types of networks, or those who have few friends that they can 'rely on' or 'trust'.

but maybe I've missed what you're getting at...

[mr smith]

Mental illness is mostly used as an excuse for bad behaviour. Every idiot you see on the news from footballers to average joes claim to have some sort of mental illness when caught doing wrong.
If people commit a crime, mental illness should not be used to reduce or prevent punishment, forum member or not.

[Road Games]

I have a mental disease myself but i don't particularly think i am evil neither do the ones who love me...
I do have scary dreams though and i have had them since 99'...

This Forum has been a god send for me and allowed me to communicate in a way i was always too afraid to in real life..

And i don't think the Admin and the regular members will ever really know what a HUGE help they have been to me?

Both inadvertantly and in my face

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by mr smith

Mental illness is mostly used as an excuse for bad behaviour. Every idiot you see on the news from footballers to average joes claim to have some sort of mental illness when caught doing wrong.
If people commit a crime, mental illness should not be used to reduce or prevent punishment, forum member or not.

I don't know how much you know about mental illness...but I certainly wouldn't say most, or even some.

The brain is a complex piece of machinery, and sometimes those messages get scrambled (fact). Schitzophrenia tends to be a genetic trait, as is manic depression and even depression. Diminished mental capacity is a possibility for anyone - including you.

I know a lot of people with mental illness', myself included, and I don't know one that has ever used their illness as an excuse for the way they behave. They have been honest about their illness and in most instances that I have come across, their illness is a direct result of a severely traumatising event, and usually from their childhood or early teens.

I wouldn't say these people are evil, although there are those out there who intentionally set out to hurt someone, these people have a different sort of mental illness - one where the ability to rationalise is there, they just don't care about the consequences.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by mr smith

Mental illness is mostly used as an excuse for bad behaviour. Every idiot you see on the news from footballers to average joes claim to have some sort of mental illness when caught doing wrong.
If people commit a crime, mental illness should not be used to reduce or prevent punishment, forum member or not.

So my point exactly, mr smith, (not really). Mental illness is not,as far as I'm aware ,used as an excuse for the issues you have referenced above on a regular basis. If the "average joe", caught "doing something wrong" is the context by which we are judging people, then isn't that a little arbitrary for us. I'm sure we've all been accused of bad behaiour, to whatever extent, but I'm also sure that we would not have considered ourselves as being victims of some mental illness.
I just think that reading through a lot of threads, that we are very selective and specific on who is deserving of advice and support, and who should be hung drawn and quartered because they are not necessarily "one of us".

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I don't know how much you know about mental illness...but I certainly wouldn't say most, or even some.

The brain is a complex piece of machinery, and sometimes those messages get scrambled (fact). Schitzophrenia tends to be a genetic trait, as is manic depression and even depression. Diminished mental capacity is a possibility for anyone - including you.

I know a lot of people with mental illness', myself included, and I don't know one that has ever used their illness as an excuse for the way they behave. They have been honest about their illness and in most instances that I have come across, their illness is a direct result of a severely traumatising event, and usually from their childhood or early teens.

I wouldn't say these people are evil, although there are those out there who intentionally set out to hurt someone, these people have a different sort of mental illness - one where the ability to rationalise is there, they just don't care about the consequences.

This is my story, I have a few mates that now have depression, they use this as an excuse to put their family , friends and work mates through hell. (But dont dare say anything to up set them, they have a mental illness you know) I ve had enough. Their conditions if true, come from years of heavy drinking and drugs, (the sort of thing alot of aussie males get up to, they have good jobs and families) but their past has caught up and now we have to tip toe around.
I've been to some third world countries where if any one is going to have a mental illness its them, no food, children die, and lucky to have a shelter. Do they get consessions, use excuses, lay on the couch all day ? No they get on with surviving while in the West people commit suicide because they lost their job and cant afford the big new car.

[Road Games]

Originally Posted by mr smith

This is my story, I have a few mates that now have depression, they use this as an excuse to put their family , friends and work mates through hell. (But dont dare say anything to up set them, they have a mental illness you know) I ve had enough. Their conditions if true, come from years of heavy drinking and drugs, (the sort of thing alot of aussie males get up to, they have good jobs and families) but their past has caught up and now we have to tip toe around.
I've been to some third world countries where if any one is going to have a mental illness its them, no food, children die, and lucky to have a shelter. Do they get consessions, use excuses, lay on the couch all day ? No they get on with surviving while in the West people commit suicide because they lost their job and cant afford the big new car.

Wow .. great stereotyping there ??

[Burnout]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

I don't know how much you know about mental illness...but I certainly wouldn't say most, or even some.

The brain is a complex piece of machinery, and sometimes those messages get scrambled (fact). Schitzophrenia tends to be a genetic trait, as is manic depression and even depression. Diminished mental capacity is a possibility for anyone - including you.

I know a lot of people with mental illness', myself included, and I don't know one that has ever used their illness as an excuse for the way they behave. They have been honest about their illness and in most instances that I have come across, their illness is a direct result of a severely traumatising event, and usually from their childhood or early teens.

I wouldn't say these people are evil, although there are those out there who intentionally set out to hurt someone, these people have a different sort of mental illness - one where the ability to rationalise is there, they just don't care about the consequences.

Excellent Post!

Social psychopaths are far removed from people with mental issues like depression. Clinical schizophrenics appear on the surface to be very similar to those with drug induced psychosis, the main similarity being they both hear voices.
Of course there are those with any one of these afflictions who use it to their advantage when interacting with others, in some cases it is a part of the condition and I found they try this tactic on people they know.
Trouble is you can over simplify a complex problem.
Many wonder why mental illness seems on the increase, it most certainly is in the case of drug induced psychosis. However the perceived increase in other forms of mental illness could be a better informed society, or the fact that almost all mentally ill people now live in the community. some suggest that mental illness is on the increase due to environmental factors or processed foods, etc.. Tough to think your favorite processed sausage could send you mad.........

[b2tf]

If you are referring to my thread where I asked for advice about how to help a friend with depression I need to clarify that its not actually me that has the issue, rather a friend of mine does and I needed advice from those who had 'been there done that' to make sure I handled the situation in the appropriate way.

Mental illness is a term that is thrown about way too much for my liking and I reckon that it is actually the reason a lot of people don't or won't always admit to themselves they have a problem that requires help. The last thing someone with depression would want is to be labelled as 'mentally ill' - because they're not, their circumstances at the time are impacting on their quality of life, they're not born missing parts or weird.

I'm not sure if I have actually answered your question but I did want to clarify my view on it. Depression is not a mental illness - things like bipolar disorder and schitzophrenia etc are recognised mental illnesses.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by mr smith

This is my story, I have a few mates that now have depression, they use this as an excuse to put their family , friends and work mates through hell. (But dont dare say anything to up set them, they have a mental illness you know) I ve had enough. Their conditions if true, come from years of heavy drinking and drugs, (the sort of thing alot of aussie males get up to, they have good jobs and families) but their past has caught up and now we have to tip toe around.
I've been to some third world countries where if any one is going to have a mental illness its them, no food, children die, and lucky to have a shelter. Do they get consessions, use excuses, lay on the couch all day ? No they get on with surviving while in the West people commit suicide because they lost their job and cant afford the big new car.

Given that the brain is affected by alcohol and drug use - these signs are obvious when you see a person who is highly intoxicated, it is quite possible that they do have a problem as there is a link between alcohol and drug use (both being a central nervous system depressant). The effect of these drugs on the brain aren't totally known - if your friends are using it as an excuse to behave like tools, they probably need help as well - to snap them out of it. If they feel they aren't getting support, they will continue to act out to get attention...perhaps they feel they aren't getting enough. I don't know, but I know that not all people are like this.

Dependent on the persons brain chemical activity to start off with, the use of drugs (particularly marijuana) has the potential to cause serious brain issues as a result - THC occurs naturally in your brain, the addition of the extra THC has the potential to render it's users schizophrenic (I've seen this in action - and it's not pretty when they snap into rages and you can't stop them, and the sad part is they don't even know they're doing it).

Support structure in third world countries is a lot different to the support networks we have here...family and friends are far more tight knit than they are in Western Countries. Suicide rates are higher in men than women, and not just because they've lost their job and they can't afford to pay for their big car - but because their support networks aren't there, or because they don't feel they have the support network, despite what the truth may be (their brain has the potential to calculate this information and rationalise, but not in their current state of mind).

Originally Posted by Burnout

Many wonder why mental illness seems on the increase, it most certainly is in the case of drug induced psychosis. However the perceived increase in other forms of mental illness could be a better informed society, or the fact that almost all mentally ill people now live in the community. some suggest that mental illness is on the increase due to environmental factors or processed foods, etc.. Tough to think your favorite processed sausage could send you mad.........

I'm not so sure I agree on the processed foods, but the environmental factors certainly do play a part. The flip side is that people who have mental illness are no longer embarrassed - the stigma surrounding these illnesses have been removed quite radically from what they were fifteen years ago when I first received the diagnosis (I sure as hell didn't tell anyone what was wrong - and still don't really, but I'm less insecure about it - because I know I'm not alone).

There is the potential also, however, for misdiagnosis, bad behaviour is diagnosed as a mental issue ADHD etc. (My research on that is limited, so I won't pass judgment).

edit: It's also very easy to cover up these issues with a smile - it's very rare that strangers or those who don't know you well will question if you're okay if you've got a smile on your face, and for the most part, those people are too busy worrying about their own lives to notice that you have a problem.

[84xespac]

The problem as I see it is that people as a general rule still judge people with a mental issue as being "unsafe" to be let loose in society. I my self suffer from Schizophrenia and I can tell you that I spend a lot of my life being judged for this and in no way would I ever let people I work with or a job I was going for know that I was afflicted with the disease. Most of my friends know but it is only after they have known me for a while that they are told as in most cases the friendship would be lost before it started if I did tell them.

In saying all of this it does not affect the way I day to day function and has not been an "issue" for me for several years now as I have learnt how to deal with it. I am one of the lucky ones as my Schizophrenia is only a mild case and not full on as many I have met (including some of my family members).

I commend anyone who stands up and admits to needing help as they believe they have a problem, it's only by doing this that they can get help and on the road to recovery.

[Ford_The_Win]

Where do I begin?
It's such a complex and broad topic that I just don't know whether it's worth even replying.

Understanding is the key here.

Just to clarify a little bit for people that don't have much knowledge of how depression/bi-polar etc work.

Some people have genuine mental illnesses that make them do strange and sometimes awful things.

Some other people are just bad in general - part of their personality and not necessarily a mental illness, although some psychologists would have you believe otherwise. Stressing the some here. Back in the '90s, it was fashionable to diagnose all and sundry with mental illnesses - like the boom in ADD/HD in the late '90s - there was no real boom, just enthusiastic doctors.

And no, depression is not a "cop out". It's not just a case of "hardening up".

First of all, most people are unaware of what depression actually is. If somebody has depression, they are severely distressed and potentially having suicidal thoughts for an extended period of time.

Most people suffering from "depression" are actually suffering from dysthymia - a kind of cyclical state of mind where they are consistently down about life, lose interest in relationships and things they enjoy, and every now and then, have a bout of severe depression as described before.

Imagine if you felt like that all the time, even things you previously enjoyed gave you no pleasure and had no hope for the future. It's hardly suprising that a lot of drug and alcohol abusers suffer from depression because it helps them mask their negative thoughts.

Bi-polar is an even more toxic train of thought, similar to dysthymia but slot in a few periods of mania - you feel great, on top of the world, nothing can stop you - people in this state of mind often do irrational things like spending lots of money or gambling - then of course they come crashing down and the mistakes they made when manic lead to even greater depths of depression.

I have several family members with mental illness and it is incredibly frustrating - sometimes you just want to shake them out of it. But you have to step back and put yourself in their shoes. Think about what it must take for somebody to kill his or herself. To go beyond all the survival instincts that are biologically built into all of us. How bad must they feel if that is the only solution to their problem?

It is not as simple as it seems, not by a long shot.

[Road Games]

You have hit the nail square on the head there my friend...

[my_gxl]

Originally Posted by mr smith

Mental illness is mostly used as an excuse for bad behaviour. Every idiot you see on the news from footballers to average joes claim to have some sort of mental illness when caught doing wrong.
If people commit a crime, mental illness should not be used to reduce or prevent punishment, forum member or not.

That point of view must only come from someone who does not have to contend with the day to day issues of living with a legitimate mental illness, ie they don't have one themselves.

I will agree that some do claim it, however a report from a psychiatrist would be required to substantiate it.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

Where do I begin?
It's such a complex and broad topic that I just don't know whether it's worth even replying.

Understanding is the key here.

Just to clarify a little bit for people that don't have much knowledge of how depression/bi-polar etc work.

Some people have genuine mental illnesses that make them do strange and sometimes awful things.

Some other people are just bad in general - part of their personality and not necessarily a mental illness, although some psychologists would have you believe otherwise. Stressing the some here. Back in the '90s, it was fashionable to diagnose all and sundry with mental illnesses - like the boom in ADD/HD in the late '90s - there was no real boom, just enthusiastic doctors.

And no, depression is not a "cop out". It's not just a case of "hardening up".

First of all, most people are unaware of what depression actually is. If somebody has depression, they are severely distressed and potentially having suicidal thoughts for an extended period of time.

Most people suffering from "depression" are actually suffering from dysthymia - a kind of cyclical state of mind where they are consistently down about life, lose interest in relationships and things they enjoy, and every now and then, have a bout of severe depression as described before.

Imagine if you felt like that all the time, even things you previously enjoyed gave you no pleasure and had no hope for the future. It's hardly suprising that a lot of drug and alcohol abusers suffer from depression because it helps them mask their negative thoughts.

Bi-polar is an even more toxic train of thought, similar to dysthymia but slot in a few periods of mania - you feel great, on top of the world, nothing can stop you - people in this state of mind often do irrational things like spending lots of money or gambling - then of course they come crashing down and the mistakes they made when manic lead to even greater depths of depression.

I have several family members with mental illness and it is incredibly frustrating - sometimes you just want to shake them out of it. But you have to step back and put yourself in their shoes. Think about what it must take for somebody to kill his or herself. To go beyond all the survival instincts that are biologically built into all of us. How bad must they feel if that is the only solution to their problem?

It is not as simple as it seems, not by a long shot.

Best post in the thread.....

[vibe_xr6]

I have had a mental illness for a few years now, and its started to get in the road of my daily routines, unfortuantly, lately i have been turning to alcohol and going out with my friends ( most nights during the week ) Just to get away from the illness, Me and my mrs relationship is on a tight line and also it makes the illness worse in the morning, And its all thanks to me trying to get over the mental illness, I havnt spoke to many people about it... Well most people know i have it, But i wont talk to them about it, So last week i bit the bullet and went and saw the doc about it, I am seeing a physocologist ?... Tomorrow so hopefully it will help me out. But im with daz, my car helps my illness, and this forum keeps my mind on my car. But to a degree, I find some mental illness's do turn people evil, I have been there and seen it, And this illness wasnt from drugs or alcohol.

[excessfg]

the evil ones use it to soften the blow of their consequences. i have a mental illness and it makes me furious to see people pimping a fake disease to get out of their responsibility for something they have done.

[Mickxr8]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

Where do I begin?
It's such a complex and broad topic that I just don't know whether it's worth even replying.

Understanding is the key here.

Just to clarify a little bit for people that don't have much knowledge of how depression/bi-polar etc work.

Some people have genuine mental illnesses that make them do strange and sometimes awful things.

Some other people are just bad in general - part of their personality and not necessarily a mental illness, although some psychologists would have you believe otherwise. Stressing the some here. Back in the '90s, it was fashionable to diagnose all and sundry with mental illnesses - like the boom in ADD/HD in the late '90s - there was no real boom, just enthusiastic doctors.

And no, depression is not a "cop out". It's not just a case of "hardening up".

First of all, most people are unaware of what depression actually is. If somebody has depression, they are severely distressed and potentially having suicidal thoughts for an extended period of time.

Most people suffering from "depression" are actually suffering from dysthymia - a kind of cyclical state of mind where they are consistently down about life, lose interest in relationships and things they enjoy, and every now and then, have a bout of severe depression as described before.

Imagine if you felt like that all the time, even things you previously enjoyed gave you no pleasure and had no hope for the future. It's hardly suprising that a lot of drug and alcohol abusers suffer from depression because it helps them mask their negative thoughts.

Bi-polar is an even more toxic train of thought, similar to dysthymia but slot in a few periods of mania - you feel great, on top of the world, nothing can stop you - people in this state of mind often do irrational things like spending lots of money or gambling - then of course they come crashing down and the mistakes they made when manic lead to even greater depths of depression.

I have several family members with mental illness and it is incredibly frustrating - sometimes you just want to shake them out of it. But you have to step back and put yourself in their shoes. Think about what it must take for somebody to kill his or herself. To go beyond all the survival instincts that are biologically built into all of us. How bad must they feel if that is the only solution to their problem?

It is not as simple as it seems, not by a long shot.

Excellent post .thank you.
I googled the word `dysthymia` and had a bit of a read. here`s one link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001916/

Got a few boxes ticked off in there. hmm
Already got a `pysch` appt 2nd june but time for another visit to my gp.

[THE CADBURY KID]

When you are there you will get a better picture of it all,all thee who lesten the severity of any mind illness better hope they dont end up with mental issues because its hard to identify and fix things inside your head.
I have had mental issues for years,i know what it is like to try explaining things to so called "normal people"...

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by mickxr8

Excellent post .thank you.
I googled the word `dysthymia` and had a bit of a read. here`s one link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001916/

Got a few boxes ticked off in there. hmm
Already got a `pysch` appt 2nd june but time for another visit to my gp.

Glad to be of assistance. I'm training towards becoming a psych so its nice to hear something I've done is helping someone else.

Seeing a professional is the first (and the best) step in moving forwards, they will make you much more aware of yourself, negative thought patterns and help you find ways to get past them.

[gtfpv]

ok most people try to repair the depression themselves , by exercises or finding a hobby , if they haven't done so they have a problem . and this is when someone needs to tell them to see a doctor ( demanding them to isnt really a bad thing ) cause at a certain stage a depressed person will be in denial .
Many things can cause depression, perhaps has been triggered by an issue , and is normal to get depressed, a cure isn't hard , but people must take the steps , many times depression can be temporary .
people can and do go into depressive states , where they are completely irrational , and dont even realise it . if they dont realise it , then they arent aware they arent thinking right, they dont know that it is temporary , and can spiral down to the point of no return .
often after depression has been treated and dealt with a person looks back in total shock , at how they were , and what they were thinking .
some people get over it themselves , but more likely the 1 step is to see a doctor , 90% of the cure is right there and then .

[raised by monkeys]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

Glad to be of assistance. I'm training towards becoming a psych so its nice to hear something I've done is helping someone else.

Seeing a professional is the first (and the best) step in moving forwards, they will make you much more aware of yourself, negative thought patterns and help you find ways to get past them.

good sound advise there.

Clearly there is a difference in this thread between those with life experience of MH issues, those without a clue and those with some theoretical based knowledge.

There is an over generalisation or canvas use of attaching 'MH' to someones behaviour or mood, although, its not always MH. Many of us will experience bouts of depression, doesnt mean we need medication, psychiatric treatment or therapy... It can be situational, it may depedend on a pre-disposition to MH in our envisonment, our diet, trauma. There are so many factors which can lead to an onset of various MH issues.

Research has identified that mood disorders, especially dysthimia or depression can be caused by pre-disposition and influence from our environments and upbringing. Where as personality disorders are linked to trauma. Psychotic disorders are still being researched, however, corellation has been made that you are more like to suffer such a disorder as schizophrenia if it is in the family, but not necessarily hereditory...

With a focus on MH reform in the past 20 years including the deinstutionalisation of psychiatric patients and the 'normalisation' appraoch to provide psychiatric treatment within the community as a result of various influences including advancements in particularly anti-psychotic medications - less restraining (and the various SSRI's and SRI's now available - commonly used with those suffering from mood and anxiety disorders), advances in research into MH and neo-liberal social policy to privatise state services to NGO's and a focus on social justice for those suffering psychiatric disorders... barriers of stigma are slowly being removed and a greater awareness of MH has developed and its great to see some of the more practical approaches to battling MH being mentioned her in this thread inc the use of distractions and support networks.

It is often the case the case that MH could be an underlying factor to what can be viewed as 'bizarre behaviour' and this can often be related to a realm of MH such as personality disorders which can often develop as an affect of being pre-disposed to trauma (various forms of abuse, neglect, critical incident) as early as pre-birth in the whom.

MH is so so complex and i would encourage those without an actual understanding of MH issues to refrain from making biased opinions based on a broad over generalisation of the term 'MH' often saturated with a media influence and or attached to the prehistoric stigma that people with MH just make excuses.

There are cases in which using MH as a way of making personal gain, but leave that to the professionals

[Dustin_80]

Everybody is neurotic and medicated.
We live in an enlightened age...

[Road Games]

Always takes one to ruin a serious thread...

Anyone else on here who has sought help , left the Psyche feeling angry and i'm not talking about the bill...

Or is just me because they make you keep bringing up and reliving the past..

"And how did it make you feel" .. maybe i need more sessions...

[raised by monkeys]

Originally Posted by Dustin_80

Everybody is neurotic and medicated.
We live in an enlightened age...

You are na'i've and uneducated.
I guess the young people that i work with that have endured ongoing sexual abuse from as easly as 1 year old and or subject to trauma as a young person have no reason to be neurotic.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by XR6menace

Always takes one to ruin a serious thread...

Anyone else on here who has sought help , left the Psyche feeling angry and i'm not talking about the bill...

Or is just me because they make you keep bringing up and reliving the past..

"And how did it make you feel" .. maybe i need more sessions...

you've asked a question and answered it yourself . now you being angry after a visit may be part of the plan . stick to it .

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by Dustin_80

Everybody is neurotic and medicated.
We live in an enlightened age...

By saying that, all you're doing is demonstrating your lack of knowledge of this issue...would wanna hope you someone you love doesn't suffer from a mental illness in the future because they certainly wouldn't get any better with that sort of attitude being shown to them.

[Mickxr8]

Originally Posted by Dustin_80

Everybody is neurotic and medicated.
We live in an enlightened age...

Please keep your "opinions" to another thread...
This a serious discussion...

[TheSneakiness]

Originally Posted by mickxr8

Excellent post .thank you.
I googled the word `dysthymia` and had a bit of a read. here`s one link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001916/

Got a few boxes ticked off in there. hmm
Already got a `pysch` appt 2nd june but time for another visit to my gp.

Great link Mick...

I find this sentence particularly hard hitting as I do this without any thought and put majority of things in the "too hard" basket.

"People with dysthymia will often take a negative or discouraging view of themselves, their future, other people, and life events. Problems often seem more difficult to solve"