Ford must be chuffed...

SSbaby · 06-04-2005, 12:57 PM

With all the bad luck that Holden must endure through GM's ineptness in NA, Ford must be thinking it's luck has finally arrived...

Cancellation of VE wagon
Cancellation of hero car, Monaro
Cancellation of One Tonner
Forget eye-popping Concept cars at Motor Shows
VE is facing serious cost-cutting. :

For the first time in many years, it looks like Ford will have more derivatives than Holden off it's main platform!

This info comes from very reputable GM websites.

svo347 · 06-04-2005, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Ford must be thinking it's luck has finally arrived...

.

Fords luck has changed with the arrival of the new modular 8's & twin cam sixes...

Its a shame but the tide has certainly begun to change...

EFFalcon · 06-04-2005, 01:03 PM

wow.... wagon owners/buyers will be ****ed!

Cobra · 06-04-2005, 01:04 PM

Heard very similar things, except the GM website i read had reported that GM were looking at cutting the ute alltogether. Another member on one of those website even suggested that he had "heard" from a reputable GM exec that GM were looking at phasing out brand differentiation between contintents and making Chev the universal brand of GM. So that would mean no Holden, Opel, Vauxhall, Izusu. I seriously doubt these claims though.

XA-Coupe · 06-04-2005, 01:04 PM

That sucks .. it means that Ford won't have the pressure to perform. Also, the Show Specials were always something interesting.
I suppose the cancellation of the wagon ( maybe a Holden 'territory' type vehicle in the pipeline?? ) means the AWD versions bite the dust too

SSbaby · 06-04-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra

Heard very similar things, expect the GM website i read had reported that GM were looking at cutting the ute alltogether. Another member on one of those website even suggested that he had "heard" from a reputable GM exec that GM were looking at phasing out brand differentiation between contintents and making Chev the universal brand of GM. So that would mean no Holden, Opel, Vauxhall, Izusu. I seriously doubt these claims though.

I reckon that person has his wires crossed. GM wants to sell Daewoos under the Chevrolet brand name as it has more appeal in Europe than has Daewoo.

Just a branding change.

SSbaby · 06-04-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA Coupe

That sucks .. it means that Ford won't have the pressure to perform. Also, the Show Specials were always something interesting.
I suppose the cancellation of the wagon ( maybe a Holden 'territory' type vehicle in the pipeline?? ) means the AWD versions bite the dust too

I agree, Jeff.

It's because of the intense competition between the red and blue brands that they have managed to push through as many utes as they have... it was only a few years ago that shifting 300 utes/month was considered an 'OK' month for ute sales...

SSbaby · 06-04-2005, 02:03 PM

This post on camaroZ28.com...

Quote:

I'm going to rant here as this seems to be the best place to do it of late

Holden is screwed. If rumours and info from former contrators and inside info is correct there have been massive cuts in Holden development.

This is the info I have seen so far,

Holden VE (Zeta based)
Wagon: Cancelled
Coupe: Cancelled
One tonner: Cancelled
Crewman: Cancelled
Adventra: Cancelled

Twin Turbo HFV6 program (75% complete): Cancelled
Zeta AWD: Cancelled

That leaves Holden swb and lwb sedans and then later the ute, everything else seems to be gone so much for flexibility.

Holden have cut all contract engineers and are currently looking at culling more jobs as we speak. Apparently this is because of a lack of $$$! I though holden was the most profitable GM car division?, but it seems to have been pulled under by GM NA.

Personally I lay the blame with GM NA. Holden developed Zeta with GM NA in mind which required bigger $$$ then they would have spent if it was just for themselves. The increased money required for development of Zeta for GM NA was going to be paided off by the increased number of vehicles to be produced on Zeta. It seems the money has been spent by holden and there will be no payback from GM NA. Holden seems to have been screwed.

Now Holden are cutting staff at least into the hundereds it may even make thousands of people unemployed over this. Holden was the most flexible car build unit GM has, but their flexiblity has been stripped because of the money hole Zeta has now created for them. It wouldn't supprise me if Holden pull the pin on the third shift at the Elizabeth factory around the intro of the VE commy as well.

To make matters that little bit worse the CEO, Denny Mooney, wanted to import Caddy into Australia. I hope he doesn't spend a $ of Holden's money to do that as he has taken Holden from the golden years under Peter Hanenberger to massive cut backs. Hopefully Mooney has backed off on that position now.

From the star of GM, to strangled to within a inch of its life.

Please come back Hanenberger, please.

Might have to change my nick to XRbaby...

But then I read something further down...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 91_z28_4me
Lets paint this a little differently shall we?

GMNA said Holden, "We want to give you a big budget to make world wide cars and to make them top of the line." Holden says "sounds good to me."

Holden starts work on VE in Aus and works the math for the NA cars when GMNA decides "We won't be able to sell these cars in the US for cheap enough to make them profitable, after they go through our horribly long, tiresome approval process, so lets not do them in NA."

Holden has done all the ground work that they would have to do in AUS in AUS. They crunched some numbers for NA through hyperspace. There may have been some computer modeling and crash testing in hyperspace. Holden still has a larger budget for VE than they would have had. Some money was wasted, a lot of time was wasted. VE should be really good and be out on time, even if just the sedans at first. Holden will do just what they did with the current V series they will introduce new body types after costs have been subsidised by the sales of the sedans. The coupe should be quicker than the last one and higher production, especially if NA gets the GTO from Holden. The Ute may even make a small appearence in the States. Holden will probably build the current V series Ute and One tonne till the new ones are ready.

So before everyone starts calling for someone to be fired I suggest that you look and see the glass may not be half full but you have something to play with. Holden will have a world class Sedan NOW. It will have a world class coupe and Ute in the future. If Holden gets itself straightened out quickly enough you may even get the Wagon/crossovers quickly.

The world is not ending and Holden will not go under, no matter how much NA tries,

love your work. well summed up.

also, don't forget, it took holden seven years to get its current array of models...

nothing happens overnight in a small company. they just don't have the resources to punch everything out at the same time.

but don't be surprised if a traditional wagon is not part of the model plan
__________________
Michael Taylor
Editor
MOTOR magazine

Phew, I just thought I had a nightmare...

Steffo · 06-04-2005, 02:10 PM

No more Monaro? Oh well.
No more Commodore Wagon? Excellent, more Falcon Wagon sales.
No more One-Tonner? Who cares.. its just a Ute with a flat tray.
No more eye-popping concepts that never make it to production anyway? Shame, those were the only nice things Holden did.
VE facing serious cost cutting? Excellent, makes the Falcon even more a shoe in to kick ****.

Holden getting screwed? I can't seem to be dissapointed, oh wait, I'm not!

Then I read the 2nd bit of that post from camaroz28.com....

Really though, as long as the VE is a fat pig like the BA, I'm good. They'll completley lose their speed advantage after that.

Smoke Pursuit · 06-04-2005, 02:54 PM

Hmmm ill believe it when I see it, Holden wanna become number 1 in Australia, dropping those models will put them around 3,000 - 4,000 vehicles behind what they already are putting out.

b2tf · 06-04-2005, 02:58 PM

Steffo Steffo Steffo...............cars do more than race and go fast mate.

I find it an unrealistic concept that Holden will one day cease to exist. Like them or hate them, they are (and always have been in one form or another) an icon and a cornerstone of the Aussie Car Industry.
I'll go so far as to say that if, hypothetically, Holden were to go under, what we would get would be low volume imports from the US and Europe - things like Astras (Vauxhalls) and possibly cheap Caddies or Buicks. Not good, as this would effectively destroy the peformance aspect of things (i.e. no SS or anything that even resembles a RWD sports car), and it would also mean a definite swing away from the standard platform for Australian built cars - your average aussie sedan is a RWD 6 cylinder with the option of 8, seats 5 and can tow.

Looking at this from the Blue Oval perspective, its good and bad. It's a godsend for the Falcon and all its derivitives - effective ownership of the sedan and wagon market, and a fair chunk of the performance market. BUT, the downside to all of this is no need for flexibility, and most definately no drive to expand the product range or enhance it.So say godbye to things like Turbo Terry, F6 etc etc. Basically, Ford would know they've got the market cornered, and most likely adopt a 'take it or leave it' attitude in regards to what vehicles they market, build and sell in Australia. Think Taurus all over again, except this time it would have a much stronger chance of becoming a reality.
Why spend money developing choices when the market doesnt have any? Thats exactly how they'd see it I think.

The concept of globalisation of GM and all its subsidiaries (GMC, Chevy, Holden, Buick, Caddie, Opel etc) is also not as good as it may sound. Whilst it would quite possibly open up more equipment sharing (i.e. stuff like AWD, motors etc. being shared between brands) and make it a lot easier, it eliminates options. Each of the companies that make up GM have a pre-existing market with good sales figures and a fair sway in the way the future goes. To stick all of these companies together and pit them under the one name against Ford etc, would be commercial suicide. Sure you may have more conformity in design, powerplants, chassis etc., but you eliminate options at a consumer level - and this is where the money starts to go down the drain.

You look at Holden and its model lineup - it has Ute, Commo, Stato, Adventra, SS, Caprice, Crewman, Cruze, Astra, Barina, SV6, SV8 (and thats not counting HSV), and you will more than likely find a vehicle that would accomodate the needs of just about anyone. Again, the same with Ford. If you add the various models of all the other GM owned companies, over time you would see a systematic removal of a lot of them. "Oh we dont need this model because this one is pretty similar". Maybe so, but what happens if you want to buy the model that just got superceded? There goes your options, and you start looking at imports. Imports = Bad for Aussie Industry.

If VE is facing such a critical shortage budgetwise, Holden are in definite trouble. But it doesnt neccesarily mean that they should simply shut up shop and fold under the covers never to be found again. Lets remember 1998 - AU Series I, Ford was just about buggered. Now we see through constant development and regeneration the most successful Falcon platform there has been in many, many years. The case will be the same for Holden.

RspecAU · 06-04-2005, 03:53 PM

"Looking at this from the Blue Oval perspective, its good and bad. It's a godsend for the Falcon and all its derivitives - effective ownership of the sedan and wagon market, and a fair chunk of the performance market. BUT, the downside to all of this is no need for flexibility, and most definately no drive to expand the product range or enhance it.So say godbye to things like Turbo Terry, F6 etc etc. Basically, Ford would know they've got the market cornered, and most likely adopt a 'take it or leave it' attitude in regards to what vehicles they market, build and sell in Australia. Think Taurus all over again, except this time it would have a much stronger chance of becoming a reality.
Why spend money developing choices when the market doesnt have any? Thats exactly how they'd see it I think."

I agree with back2thefutra and we as Ford people don't need that at all.

XRated · 06-04-2005, 03:55 PM

It's very disappointing news - even from "our" side. My thoughts have pretty much been summed up by XA Coupe, and I fear the most that Ford will drop the ball again and lag behind until they get another wake up call. Let's hope not.

(Ford need to design a decent looking station wagon with lines that flow well, and make it cheaper than the Terry - not everyone wants a big SUV.)

**Charliewool** · 06-04-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRated

(Ford need to design a decent looking station wagon with lines that flow well, and make it cheaper than the Terry - not everyone wants a big SUV.)

I would suggest that the Falcon based wagon's days are definately numbered?
The Terry is aimed fair & square at the family wagon market!... What sense is there competing against yourself?
After driving both, I'm damn sure which one I'd prefer!

MickyB · 06-04-2005, 04:39 PM

I can't really see a lot of positives coming out of Holden's supposed demise, I pretty much agree with everything back2thefutura has said. I was always suspicious that Denny Mooney (spelling?) had been sent here to be the axe man, and now it looks like Australia has to pay for GM NA’s ineptitude, maybe if they sold all of Holden’s quality products over there badged as Chevrolet's then they wouldn't be in so much of a mess? I mean lets face it; Ford isn't going to build something that it doesn't have to. If this goes ahead BA and its immediate successor may turn out to be the best Falcon's we will ever see here.

**Polyal** · 06-04-2005, 04:55 PM

I think this is Chinese wispers on speed. Is GM in that much trouble? I didn't think so and dont have any proof of it. Its all speculation at the moment, but I am happy to be proven wrong.

As for the terry killing the wagon. Big deal, it handles, brakes and holds more. The only downside is fuel consumption at the moment and Im sure there is a fix for that somewhere along the line.

Lightning Strike GT · 06-04-2005, 04:59 PM

Holden shot themselves in the foot a few years ago
Cousin who has always bought Holden V8 wagons for his buisness and has 15 - 20 fleet cars (when loaded up and with a trailer they are more stable than the FORDS) he has always replaces the cars every 2 years and was going great until the VY
Sorry sir NO V8 WAGON OPTION ANYMORE great no more V8 wagons at all from either HOLDEN or FORD (FORD has not had this for a long time)
Now TOYOTA has his business with the V8 Landcruiser and thay have a far better resale value and a lot better car as well.

Just looked on the HOLDEN web page. No V8 exec sedans either only the SV8 or SS

: glad FORD have done some thing right and brought back the 8 in a base model and a manual to go with it.

Kryton · 06-04-2005, 05:03 PM

anyone actually stopped to think that its just hearsay? i was reading just today that the ute is going to be exported to Europe, the monaro is still under review and NOT cancelled as a few would like to believe. also in the V8 supercars (in china is it?-cant remember) there will be at least 1 holden team (possibly more) that will be rebadged BUICK instead of Holden.
what does this mean? it means that Holden have indeed gone global. this can be good for them but it can also be bad for them at the same time.
as for all these models getting cancelled, well dont believe everything you hear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSbaby

This info comes from very reputable GM websites.

and still no OFFICIAL/factual information linked anywhere from the FACTORY?
i guess we'll just have to wait and see.
oh and Ford will have a coupe in their range from next model....heard it from my mates sisters 3rd cousins step brother who makes the air for all the tyres at Ford.

Firefox7 · 06-04-2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XA Coupe

That sucks .. it means that Ford won't have the pressure to perform. Also, the Show Specials were always something interesting.

I agree.......The competitiveness between Holden & Ford brought us these fantastic Falcons...T-Series..the BA-GT, & the Turboed XR series. If Holden are serious about these changes, then Ford will not be under the same pressure to perform and bring us even better cars. The only good thing about all this is the fact that Ford will most likeley get an increase in sales and will not be in as bad a financial position in the future, as it was pre BA, which means it will be around for alot longer, and will possibly create more jobs. I can live it.....:1syellow1

Cheers

b2tf · 06-04-2005, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

heard it from my mates sisters 3rd cousins step brother who makes the air for all the tyres at Ford.

Can you give me his number? I have a few complaints about the quality of his work. Ive been back for warranty repairs 3 times now.

galaxy xr8 · 06-04-2005, 08:48 PM

The cancellation of the wagon does not surprise me, It will probably happen in the Ford Aus stable in the not to distant future as well, I remember a few yr's back I was having a debate with another memember on that other site about how these suv/people mover's are becoming more and more popular, like Honda CRV, Territory etc, the demand for these type of vehicle's are rissing, Ford and Holden have finally opened their eye's to this market,(a little late) as soon as Holden bring in their American based SUV, then the Territory will have some compitition, but the Wagon's day's are numbered.

XR Martin · 06-04-2005, 08:56 PM

GM is in a bit of trouble, something about loosing alot of money in Fiat or something. Thier share price at the moment is pretty ordinary, and sales are down in the US
They've just got a new CEO to sort out the mess apparently.

So this doesnt surprise me...

Bossxr8 · 06-04-2005, 09:35 PM

I'm a bit sceptical. Holden is making ok money for GM so why is it them copping the cutbacks. Theoretically it will save development dollars but it will reduce sales and eventually profits. We need some evidence.

One thing that raises a few questions is the amount of money Holden would have spent to develop the platform, and with the numbers of vehicles able to be sold off this platform massively reduced, the price of development per vehicle will also be massively increased. Maybe Holden really are screwed. If thats the thruth then the VE is going to be way overpriced and/or have poor equipment levels to reduce costs. This maybe a huge oppurtunity for Ford to take back the No 1 Australian made car crown. Time will tell.

WASP · 06-04-2005, 10:39 PM

We'll if true that's a big shock and blow to GM. Despite this, the time is now for Ford to make a ripper of an update in October.

Gee, I'm so used to supporting the underdog in this country like Ford have always been. Damn it, now I feel obligated buy a Holden to give them a bit of support. Mind you I still haven't bought a Mitsi and don't plan to either.

SpoolMan · 06-04-2005, 10:46 PM

And the Aventura lives on ????

:

paul7v7 · 06-04-2005, 11:42 PM

this sucks major for Holden. Even as a true blue blooded man i hope that none of this is true and Holden are still kicking ahead. The Ford vs Holden competition is a true aussie tradition and i want to see it continue on.
I heard rumours of this GM issue from a friend who worked at Holden high up in the IT chain (how else did i get to drive all those Holdens incl VZ 2 months before it was released). 2 weeks ago he was told he had no job and 2 days after that he was out. From what I have been told the whole of the info system that Holden uses is very old and under so much strain that it needs to be updated. However GM wouldn't budge, claiming it is too costly.
Seriously how much do Holden need GM? Could they branch off on their own?

svo347 · 07-04-2005, 12:06 AM

http://carsguide.news.com.au/news/st...from=ni_header
That explains some of it..

#Russ#Es# · 07-04-2005, 12:43 PM

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say something a bit different to what everyone has said so far...if these models are on the chopping block I don't think we (Ford supporters) would get a inferior product in the future (to what we have now anyway). Holden aren't Ford's only competitors! Mitsu. and Toyota (although almost in the medium car category) are direct competitors. Ford also compare their product with many manufacturers from around the world.

It's almost not be viable for Ford to produce a inferior product: the cost of changing production facilities, etc (yes, they could reduce quality a little by laying off employees, changing componet suppliers, etc. but I'm not sure if marketing and the accountants at Ford would let this happen- ie reduced sales, public perception of FoMoCo, union pressure, government pressure etc.). Ford would still want to make money, so I couldn't see them turning the quality dial down a few notchs.

If the rumours are true, I'm guessing that we would get a car that is not updated very often, and has slow, insignificant increases in quality. I'm not saying that I want the rumours to be true (negative effect on economy, consumers choices more limited), but I just don't think that Ford just focus on Holden (although they are a HUGE influence on the product they manufacture). The cut would make the Holden lineup very similar to Ford's (minus the wagon, although as people have said, Fords wagon could be gone soon too). But hey, thats just my opinion...

Has anyone heard of the (rough) figures that Ford and Holden were spending on their next model (VE Comm. and Cooperhead?/next Falcon) before the rumours?.

...Dives for the flameproof suit (be gentle!)

b2tf · 07-04-2005, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul7v7

Seriously how much do Holden need GM? Could they branch off on their own?

They probably could but it would be an effective step back to the dark ages - no GenIII, IV or any other variants, and they would lose out bigtime on some of the engineering and systems available to them via GM.
So for that reason i don't think they'd consider it just yet, if at all.

loxxr6 · 07-04-2005, 01:06 PM

More but prob the same from the Drive site...

http://www.drive.com.au/editorial/ar...vf=2&bg=1&pp=0