Architects, Engineers, Surveryors... working Construction?

JerseyVics · 12-09-2010, 02:38 PM

Ha... any time I tell anyone I got a new job in Construction I always get a weird look: "things must be real bad... after college you couldn't get anything else but hard manual labor?" its great...

I'm sure there are a ton of guys (and gals) on this forum that probably work in the same industry, after all... you got the "ute" in Australia. I am especially intrigued to learn that some of the biggest players on the global scale are Ozzie... take Lend Lease for example. I'm not sure I heard of them once when I was living there but now that I'm back in NYC Bovis Lend Lease generates over US$2BILLION a year, in NYC market alone! Thats one of the top players here. Actus Land Lease has some of the top US Military contracts. Its insane.

Are there construction type forums that car enthusiasts from this site frequent? I'd be interested to shoot the sheet in the appropriate place. Would be happy to share some pix from some of the work I did, like the Penthouse suite at the top fo Trump International at Columbus Circle in Manhattan for example.

I'm also surprised how primitive construction business still is in the USA. You've got architects creating these fantastic futuristic 3D models in CAD/BIM, Revit, etc. And then it boils down to simple 2D prints for trades to execute on the field. The string is still used as a unit of measurement on skyscrapers in Manhattan, lol

My employers came up with new software that automates things a little, specifically when it pertains to surveying. To me, when I first saw it... I asked: "isn't it the way its supposed to be done in this day and age, its the 21st century for god's sake" but apparently not. So if there is interest, do check it out:

www.theometrics.com

It'd be cool to have a business exchange forum, especially in this economy. To moderators: if I posted this in the wrong forum, please feel free to move or delete. Thanks.

Anyone else in this line of work? Please stay in touch, it would be interesting.

--Russ

wrongwaynorris · 12-09-2010, 05:42 PM

Hi JV :

Not directly involved but am involved in an inordinate amount of construction work .

irish2 · 12-09-2010, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerseyVics

I'm also surprised how primitive construction business still is in the USA. You've got architects creating these fantastic futuristic 3D models in CAD/BIM, Revit, etc. And then it boils down to simple 2D prints for trades to execute on the field. The string is still used as a unit of measurement on skyscrapers in Manhattan, lol

--Russ

So tradesman should walk around with a laptop and 3D CAD drawings everywhere they go?

JerseyVics · 13-09-2010, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

So tradesman should walk around with a laptop and 3D CAD drawings everywhere they go?

they can... i'm not saying for every job, but its possible to layout complext designs on a job site in real time... even make changes to the design based on actual environment conditions.

surely beats a trade showing up on site... scratching his head (well that won't work) passing down the dilemma to the next person who investigates and comes up wint an alternative plan, and all wasting a great deal of time doing this.

it makes sense for other industries so why should AEC be stuck in the dark ages just because its been done this way for many years?

AUIIPURSUIT · 13-09-2010, 09:57 AM

im a systems electrician, and this whole principle doesnt sound dumb at all. In fact it was literally only a week ago where i was speaking of this exact principle. Using CAD on the go.

As an electrical construction worker, i can also tell you this would greatly benefit the workers with plan revisions. There are countless instances where you are working off 2D drawings that are 3-4 revisions old. Quite frustrating doing things over for the sake of time delays out of your hands.

I think having 3D CAD style drawings for each trade on a laptop would be great. Would mean theres no need to cross check all your work constantly with the builders architectual drawings for details and clashes. It constantly seems like we are doing the architects job.

The only thing this system would need to be able to EASILY implement, is the ability to freehand over the plans with notes and highlighting, so you can work out what stage of rough in, or points of interest are there. Specifically for sparkies, we have to mark out our 2d plans with circuit configuration for loading, and to make it clear what has and hasnt been roughed in etc etc...

irish2 · 13-09-2010, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AUIIPURSUIT

im a systems electrician, and this whole principle doesnt sound dumb at all. In fact it was literally only a week ago where i was speaking of this exact principle. Using CAD on the go.

As an electrical construction worker, i can also tell you this would greatly benefit the workers with plan revisions. There are countless instances where you are working off 2D drawings that are 3-4 revisions old. Quite frustrating doing things over for the sake of time delays out of your hands.

I think having 3D CAD style drawings for each trade on a laptop would be great. Would mean theres no need to cross check all your work constantly with the builders architectual drawings for details and clashes. It constantly seems like we are doing the architects job.

The only thing this system would need to be able to EASILY implement, is the ability to freehand over the plans with notes and highlighting, so you can work out what stage of rough in, or points of interest are there. Specifically for sparkies, we have to mark out our 2d plans with circuit configuration for loading, and to make it clear what has and hasnt been roughed in etc etc...

So what happens when your CAD drawings are many revisions old? There is a revision number on drawings and revision lists are issued regularly. Carrying a laptop on a construction site is asking for trouble.

irish2 · 13-09-2010, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerseyVics

they can... i'm not saying for every job, but its possible to layout complext designs on a job site in real time... even make changes to the design based on actual environment conditions.

surely beats a trade showing up on site... scratching his head (well that won't work) passing down the dilemma to the next person who investigates and comes up wint an alternative plan, and all wasting a great deal of time doing this.

it makes sense for other industries so why should AEC be stuck in the dark ages just because its been done this way for many years?

The drawings sould be right in the first place if the drafties could do their job. Unfortunately it is the tradesmen on the ground that are left to pick up the pieces. I recently ran a job where not one piece of pipework was run to the plan. There were clashes on almost every drawing. The 2D plan shows enough information for a competent tradesman.

castellan · 13-09-2010, 11:04 AM

I know people who have gone over to work in the USA building industry and all have said they are backwards & shoddy mob. but we are following in their direction fast.
I have been asking about for someone to come up with a 3D type of setup so i can show dimwits where they are wrong easier. time is money.
Sick of dealing with fools that have no idea.

irish2 · 13-09-2010, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

I know people who have gone over to work in the USA building industry and all have said they are backwards & shoddy mob. but we are following in their direction fast.
I have been asking about for someone to come up with a 3D type of setup so i can show dimwits where they are wrong easier. time is money.
Sick of dealing with fools that have no idea.

If draftsmen can't get things to fit in 2D drawings, then how will they ever work out 3D?

JerseyVics · 13-09-2010, 02:35 PM

its a big problem in the US 3D to 2D

most if not all modern architects create complex 3D models... then it boils down to a 2D printout

even companies that hire my firm to do work for them... As-Built or Deviation Studies... want deliverables printed out on a 24x36 inch plot... when we present a 3D model to them in CAD... a great deal of them don't know how to use the software! You'd think it'd be required knowledge... but it isn't.

I like to think that people would need to adapt eventually. With better training and acceptance of new technology we can have smarter construction workers, doing work more efficiently.

Staying on the same page later on its all semantics... we'll cross that bridge once we get to it.

I'll need to box this software up and put it out there to the Ozzie and South East Asian markets, with the amount of building going on down there it make more sense than trying to convince Americans that its a good idea to use it.

FTE72 · 13-09-2010, 02:55 PM

The trick is for the Architects and engineers to "assemble" all the different drafting from construction, mechanical and electrical and do a 3d "WALK THROUGH" to see if there is any service or construction clashes.
Software called "REV IT" is designed for this purpose, and suppliers can also add their product drawings to the database, so that the fitout can be simulated and tested at design before excavation of groundworks has even started.
This software was developed in the US I believe.
My company has all of our product drawn for the user database.
I have seen a coordinated project using this scope run on a Wellington NZ job with great success.
Potentially huge time savings to be had if used to max potential.
And a good sales tool too. Gets your gear on the job before you even hear of a Tender coming to market.
The Industry in Oz is taking it up reasonably quickly.

irish2 · 13-09-2010, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FTE72

The trick is for the Architects and engineers to "assemble" all the different drafting from construction, mechanical and electrical and do a 3d "WALK THROUGH" to see if there is any service or construction clashes.
Software called "REV IT" is designed for this purpose, and suppliers can also add their product drawings to the database, so that the fitout can be simulated and tested at design before excavation of groundworks has even started.
.

This already occurs to an extent. The problem is the engineers don't always understand the practicalities of doing a specific task. Time and time again I am given drawings that are ipossible to implement. Engineers assuming a 300 diameter steel pipe is actually 300mm when it is not. Placing pipework up against walls in corners where it is impossible to weld.

I had a 30min agument with an engineer over a drawing once. It showed a 450mm stainless pipe going through a hallway and turning hard to the wall at a T intersection. Took me 30 mins to convince him that a 450 pipe doesn't bend within 500mm. I even drew the radius of the bend on the ground with the centres of the pipe to show him that it would be about 250mm inside the wall. This is not an isolated case and although my experience is restricted to pipework, I'm sure that drafting, and engineering errors through a complete lack of knowledge, are not.

AUIIPURSUIT · 13-09-2010, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

So what happens when your CAD drawings are many revisions old? There is a revision number on drawings and revision lists are issued regularly. Carrying a laptop on a construction site is asking for trouble.

At least you can have electronic updates. takes ages for physical plans to get into our hands. god knows why. theres always a paper trail.

im not saying the laptop should be carried around. Keep it in the lockup box and use it as required. it doesnt have to go in your tool pouch.

Ive seen plenty of lighting control guys bring laptops on site for CBUS etc, as with fire technicians etc etc.. starting too see alot of EE PC's on site, as they are compact, and cheap.

obviously youd need a gruntier more expensive unit to be looking at 3d drawings, but the ideas are slowly coming into the 21st century.

i walk around with a 12000$ tester on most jobs.

JerseyVics · 13-09-2010, 08:05 PM

we're actually testing a version of software to run on Revit platform... soon you'll be able to shoot an as-built study directly in 3D revit model on the fly

ELGT4me · 13-09-2010, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

So tradesman should walk around with a laptop and 3D CAD drawings everywhere they go?

Get used to it my friend, I do not go anywhere near a piece of mining equipment without a laptop to diagnose, gain access codes & to fault find machine problems. The guy /girl driving the excavator /shovel is told where to dig by computers/satellites. The guy driving the dozer is sending images to a satellite /computer to maintain correct levels. Final trim graders are using computers/ satellites to maintain grade control. It was a 3d Cad drawing that picked up design flaws in the A 380. Yet the Inca's, Egyptians & Poms , could constuct buildings, that still stand & are accurate even by todays standards.

Bakis · 13-09-2010, 09:33 PM

Im studying Civil Engineering atm and all they use is AutoCad at Uni but back in TAFE they used Microstation both good in there own ways. Autocad is more architect then engineering.

All of my lectures and tutes give **** to architects because they make an engineers job more difficult. lol

JerseyVics · 13-09-2010, 10:43 PM

what school do you go to Bakis?

we're looking to partner with universities worldwide as we just got accredited by the AIA to offer continuing education credit for our technology

wrongwaynorris · 14-09-2010, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELGT4me

Get used to it my friend, I do not go anywhere near a piece of mining equipment without a laptop to diagnose, gain access codes & to fault find machine problems. The guy /girl driving the excavator /shovel is told where to dig by computers/satellites. The guy driving the dozer is sending images to a satellite /computer to maintain correct levels. Final trim graders are using computers/ satellites to maintain grade control. It was a 3d Cad drawing that picked up design flaws in the A 380. Yet the Inca's, Egyptians & Poms , could constuct buildings, that still stand & are accurate even by todays standards.

Would this tool be E.T. Mate ?

irish2 · 14-09-2010, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ELGT4me

Get used to it my friend, I do not go anywhere near a piece of mining equipment without a laptop to diagnose, gain access codes & to fault find machine problems. The guy /girl driving the excavator /shovel is told where to dig by computers/satellites. The guy driving the dozer is sending images to a satellite /computer to maintain correct levels. Final trim graders are using computers/ satellites to maintain grade control. It was a 3d Cad drawing that picked up design flaws in the A 380. Yet the Inca's, Egyptians & Poms , could constuct buildings, that still stand & are accurate even by todays standards.

So when I'm oxy cutting in an open air plant room and it starts to rain how well is the laptop going to handle that? On a contruction site we can just drive up to our work area and get our laptop out. On most construction sites you are flat out leaving your tools more than 20m away without them going walkabout. Wake up to the real world people.

JerseyVics · 14-09-2010, 10:49 AM

today's laptops can get a little wet

although I have fried a Panasonic Toughbook already trying to finish up a job in a thunderstorm

luckily the hard drives are hot swappable, so I was able to plug it into another toughbook and get a day's worth of data off of it

FTE72 · 14-09-2010, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerseyVics

we're actually testing a version of software to run on Revit platform... soon you'll be able to shoot an as-built study directly in 3D revit model on the fly

You already can. As I said, I have completed a project doing it this way.

brad24 · 14-09-2010, 01:28 PM

" The string is still used as a unit of measurement on skyscrapers in Manhattan, lol"

I run/manage a civil costruction company in North Western Aus

The string line in certain circumstances is one of the most accurate & easy to use tools around. Why complicate things for the sake of it.
Keep it simple stupid/if it aint broke dont fix it.

How long is that lap top going to last in the middle of decent size concrete pour

As far as tradesman running around with lap top computers so they get the right drawing revisions. It wont fix a thing if the drafting/engineering company doesnt pass the info on. Thats where I see the problem exists.
Two dimentional plans for me are a lot easier to use & I believe in my line of work 3 dimensional plans would be harder to read & increase more room for error.

Cheers Brad

DNKPWR · 15-09-2010, 10:32 PM

I have been told that most architects are now drawing in a 3D format (Rivit).
But having drawings(arch drawings) produced in 3D would be much harder to understand and dimension, it would only works well with manufacturing industry.

So anyway having 2D drawings produced is a better way of showing what will be built, constructed and setout.
So having a standard drawing format which should include: plans, elevations, sections, detail, this would and should be the way of producing drawings.

JerseyVics · 15-09-2010, 11:36 PM

showing architectural drawings in 2D is difficult because there are so many components involved, when we produce As-Built studies in PDF even most experienced trades or engineers have difficulty understanding what they're looking at

presenting stuff in an electronic format, like DWG files for your AutoCAD or similarly in Revit, you can rotate and manipulate the 3D model, dimension the hell out of it, if you want... and its easy

I think with time, as younger generation gets more experienced in the field... they will prefer to review the information on their computer rather than print out simplified 2D plots. Its just a matter of time.

saber · 16-09-2010, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irish2

This already occurs to an extent. The problem is the engineers don't always understand the practicalities of doing a specific task. Time and time again I am given drawings that are ipossible to implement. Engineers assuming a 300 diameter steel pipe is actually 300mm when it is not. Placing pipework up against walls in corners where it is impossible to weld.

I had a 30min agument with an engineer over a drawing once. It showed a 450mm stainless pipe going through a hallway and turning hard to the wall at a T intersection. Took me 30 mins to convince him that a 450 pipe doesn't bend within 500mm. I even drew the radius of the bend on the ground with the centres of the pipe to show him that it would be about 250mm inside the wall. This is not an isolated case and although my experience is restricted to pipework, I'm sure that drafting, and engineering errors through a complete lack of knowledge, are not.

Mate, I 100% agree with ya. Really it flows both ways.

As a grad elec engineering myself, working at a consultancy firm (in the buildings industry).
I’m still pretty fresh (coming up to 2 years in the game) but mistakes are made on both sides of the fence.
Comms cable run against power cable on the same tray (when a dedicated comms tray 500mm away is provided), incorrect lighting used, underground cables installed without the correct clearance or protection or depth is just a few things I’ve seen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bakis

All of my lectures and tutes give **** to architects because they make an engineers job more difficult. lol

I can see why.

One of the biggest problems on a project (especially high profile jobs) is that the architect loves to make changes. That’s ok, they can make the changes, but more often these changes are not highlighted on the drawings. Moving a wall can create huge headaches for the civil, mech, elec, fire, acoustic or hydraulic engineers on the job. Coupled with the fact that the client wants the drawings out to tender as fast as possible, creates the situation where things are missed, or not correctly drawn, which unfortunately gets highlighted when the tradies get on site try to construct the building.

Danny · 17-09-2010, 06:17 PM

Been using Rivit Quite a while now. Im a Construction management student at Deakin Waterfront Geelong and have used Bentley too.

I also run a Construction/New home and Extension business with my Father and work as a chippie too. Great fun. Very tiring life.

JerseyVics · 19-09-2010, 10:50 PM

I put a page of screen shots up on the site: http://www.theometrics.com/theometri...directory.html

its not available to the public yet, but I wanted to share with you guys... most projects are NYC based a few are from Las Vegas also I think.

of course everything is in 2D screen shot, I gotta figure out how to do some videos of 3D models... maybe youtube or something

JerseyVics · 19-09-2010, 11:36 PM

another page to share... my V8 supercar track experience crash at Calder Park, lol

everyone should have a professional pet project on a company web site ;)

http://www.theometrics.com/racing/videos.html