Torana not in never never land yet!

Stoney! · 10-08-2006, 10:36 AM

Torana hopes still alive

Andrew Heasley, The Age, 09/08/06

Holden wants a small performance sedan, writes ANDREW HEASLEY.

The Holden Torana in the large foyer of General Motors Holdens new Headquarters in Port Melb. which was officially opened last night. Picture: John Woudsra

Holden's boss wants the company to make a smaller rear-wheel-drive sedan to rival the BMW 3-Series.

"I would tell you for a fact that we're still very interested in that," Holden chairman and managing director Denny Mooney said. "I wouldn't mind at some point in time trying to build a smaller performance rear-wheel-drive car."

The idea comes from a recognition that buyers are choosing smaller cars but still desire, Mr Mooney says, the driving attributes of a performance sedan that's affordable. "Quite honestly, there aren't any rear-wheel-drive, affordable performance-oriented cars in the market. If you want to buy a smaller rear-wheel-drive performance car you've got to buy a BMW. And they're not inexpensive cars. They're not affordable."

Such a car would be a logical fit, Mr Mooney adds. "I think it would be absolutely within the Holden image: a rear-wheel-drive, more performance-feeling kind of vehicle, with great ride and handling, but make it affordable."

That "performance" he says, is not a narrow definition measured in the sprint to 100 km/h, but a car that is responsive in handling dynamics as well, Mr Mooney says.

"There are plenty of people out there that love cars, love to drive cars, like to go out on a country road, drive a car and have it handle. That's what I think our heritage has been. That's why I think it would be a market we could do very well in."

How affordable? Think mid-$20,000s to mid-$30,000s, and powered either by a four-cylinder or six-cylinder engine, he says.

"With a four-cylinder you get fuel efficiency, but with rear-wheel-drive you'll get better weight distribution. You put a world-class suspension in there. It hits a market that, frankly, isn't there today."

The new Commodore is built on a flexible architecture that allows for short and long-wheelbase manufacturing, but it can't shrink small enough, cheaply enough, for a 3-Series rival.

That's because all the associated tooling and hardware has been made for the Commodore-sized car, Mr Mooney says.

"I don't know that you'd try to shrink this (Commodore platform) down. We've looked at that, but you've got to get the cost down if you want to hit the price points."

Instead, Holden would scour the GM "parts bin" to find a suitable donor chassis, he says.

Holden whetted the appetite of compact sport sedan fans at the Sydney motor show in 2004 when it took the covers off a metallic hot-pink Torana TT36 concept car. It was built on a modified Pontiac Solstice chassis, a rear-wheel-drive compact convertible sports car in the US.

"We were looking at that (Solstice) hardware as a potential base . . . to do a sedan off that. That's fundamentally what we'd do," Mr Mooney says.

The small car could be built in the same Adelaide plant as the new Commodore, he says, occupying up to half the factory's capacity.

Holden is now recognised within the GM world as expert in rear-wheel-drive car development.

chevypower · 10-08-2006, 11:24 AM

That would be awesome with a diesel-electric hybrid!

Scott · 10-08-2006, 11:29 AM

I hate to say it but everything they've described sounds like something I'd like to own!

uranium_death · 10-08-2006, 12:40 PM

Just imagine though. In 30 years time, this new Torana will be driven by young hoons, used for burnouts etc.

I think I'll continue to enjoy my Fords, regardless of what Holden likes to reveal to the media.

turboute · 10-08-2006, 01:04 PM

Great Idea - With any luck it takes off! Would love to see ford do similar as well (New Escort? what would that be Mk3?)

Poetic Justice · 10-08-2006, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney!

That "performance" he says, is not a narrow definition measured in the sprint to 100 km/h, but a car that is responsive in handling dynamics as well, Mr Mooney says.

You're only getting that now?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney!

"There are plenty of people out there that love cars, love to drive cars, like to go out on a country road, drive a car and have it handle. That's what I think our heritage has been. That's why I think it would be a market we could do very well in."

Bull****, your heritage has always been to get the numbers down to be "better than Ford". Which is exactly why Ford has always had the praise of being the better overall package because the Ford/FPV vehicles aren't about straight line performance.

xr8ute · 10-08-2006, 01:33 PM

I reckon that would be awesome...just make sure the engine bay is big enough to swap an LS1/LS2 into ;)

Psycho Chicken · 10-08-2006, 01:37 PM

lol Torana rival a BMW. That'll be the day.

WTB; Guard kit and SLR5000 stickers for my M3.

**Polyal** · 10-08-2006, 01:38 PM

It would be awesome, but I still wouldn't buy it.

merlin · 10-08-2006, 01:43 PM

Jee those boffins at Holden really have their thinking caps on - fuels at $1.60 a litre (thats what I filled up for this morning) and they *might* develop a smaller RWD car in *20,000* years time. Pretty fast reaction to the oil crisis...

**Polyal** · 10-08-2006, 02:56 PM

but even if they do produce it, its not going to offer much better fuel economy than a Golf et al.

Wouldn't that be the main reaosn you are buying it? Who is the target? Poor single people? Cos if I was single with a bit of cash it would be the BMW everytime.

Holden seriously need to pull their heads in, just look at their line up now, its probably halved with all the models they have killed off.

SSBUB · 10-08-2006, 03:22 PM

typical one eyed propaganda some of you blokes, really.

Scott · 10-08-2006, 03:33 PM

I wonder if Ford would bring us the Mondeo ST220 to answer the Torana?

**Polyal** · 10-08-2006, 03:36 PM

^^^I hope so, I have driven that car and serious, its the best Ford car available (within a normal persons price range), as an overall package.

Ryan · 10-08-2006, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMH8TR

I wonder if Ford would bring us the Mondeo ST220 to answer the Torana?

Wow that looks seriously stunning.

I would gladly own one of those sexy beasts.

colossus · 10-08-2006, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSBUB

typical one eyed propaganda some of you blokes, really.

Not really, I also think Ford are stupid for not having a decent mid sizer as well

:

BlueRaven · 10-08-2006, 05:21 PM

The only reason I wouldnt buy a small to mid sized sedan is because they are dominated by front wheel drive cars. I've tried them and it just doesnt feel right.

Holden is 100% right and I would happily buy a Torana or whatever the hell it is, if the price is right and the platform is good.

uranium_death · 10-08-2006, 05:43 PM

The back needs a bit of work...bit squarish for me, but the rest of the vehicle is very nice. The wheels especially. Very clean.

xbgs351 · 10-08-2006, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney!

[B][SIZE=3]

Instead, Holden would scour the GM "parts bin" to find a suitable donor chassis, he says.

.

I'm sure there is no mid sized rwd donor chassis available. If it's not a downsized Zeta I can't see it happening.

Bucket · 10-08-2006, 08:35 PM

And what happens to the Vecta Lines up???

paulvdb · 10-08-2006, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucket

And what happens to the Vecta Lines up???

That's pretty straightforward if you do the maths. Australian factory is too busy and can only make $40,000-80,000 cars. There's this mob called Daewoo up north that can make pretty much an unlimited amount of cars for $10,000-30,000. Using some basic math you'd say that this car, given we're talking a 4-cyl, would be an Asian-market premium car. They could then sell the fancy version with the 2.8/3.2/3.6/3.6TT/Diesel to choose from in Australia. I don't think they even need worry about the 4-cyl in Australia if they can make the 2.8 cheap enough.

elgt146 · 10-08-2006, 09:07 PM

That Mondeo would want to be better than the ones they brought out here afew years ago.

Scott · 10-08-2006, 09:23 PM

^^^Agreed

xbgs351 · 10-08-2006, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SSBUB

typical one eyed propaganda some of you blokes, really.

They wouldn't know if their a--e was on fire

:

Stoney! · 11-08-2006, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulvdb

That's pretty straightforward if you do the maths. Australian factory is too busy and can only make $40,000-80,000 cars. There's this mob called Daewoo up north that can make pretty much an unlimited amount of cars for $10,000-30,000. Using some basic math you'd say that this car, given we're talking a 4-cyl, would be an Asian-market premium car. They could then sell the fancy version with the 2.8/3.2/3.6/3.6TT/Diesel to choose from in Australia. I don't think they even need worry about the 4-cyl in Australia if they can make the 2.8 cheap enough.

Wrong, The vectra line up is already sold out, simply waiting for the daewoo to become available, the daewoo is quite a nice car actually and hes been given a lot of thumbs up, it comes with a 2.0 and 2.5 litre, both Inline 6's with five speed auto's these will be to go up against the likes of the camry and so fourth, cheaper cars, the vectra was unfortunatly in a legue of its own, and as much as im craving to buy one since i test drove one they are simply too expensive.

The torana will come out to shift the concentration off cars such as BMW, Mercedes, Falcon, Commodore, volvo and iif resources permit an AWD model will also shift focus from Mazda 6 and the Subaru liberty.

There is a chassis available for it if u had have read the article and its the chassis that currently underpins the concept torana sitting at Holden HQ.

Stoney!

Full Spectrum · 11-08-2006, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Just imagine though. In 30 years time, this new Torana will be driven by young hoons, used for burnouts etc.

I think I'll continue to enjoy my Fords, regardless of what Holden likes to reveal to the media.

Yeah just think if you can what kids will be doing with the XR6T in 15-20 years time??

I'd like the Torana back in action gives people who want something in the middle a chance to buy one cheaper then a commodore.
Friends are looking this Saturday at buying a small car, They are interested in the Viva but not the barina, What they really want is a Vectra at Astra price, If the Torana was available now i know they would buy one if it was around $25,000.
My mum wants a Vectra V6 but being over $40,000 it's a long way off the mark, Again a $20,000-$30,000 Torana would be perfect.
Chances are GM will jump on this car so it gives holden a chance to build one as long as GM has enough buyers for it.

**Bluehoon** · 11-08-2006, 08:04 AM

mmmmmm XU1 mmmmmmm

paulvdb · 11-08-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoney!

There is a chassis available for it if u had have read the article and its the chassis that currently underpins the concept torana sitting at Holden HQ.

The majority of articles I've read so far suggest there isn't a RWD chassis available in this size (the Solstice could be a buit too small). The concept car was a hybrid of different platforms. Holden are saying that Zeta can't be scaled to smaller/cheaper cars. That means that Holden would need to get GM NA approval for another RWD platform, which seems like a big ask. The Torana won't get approval as a standalone Australian car - it would need another $1B - so it would need to be Asian car. That means that it needs to be built by Daewoo (as part of Holden's current strategy).

Technically I think that Ford would have more luck getting it's platform scaled for a car this size but again you have internal Ford competition. There are already 3 car brands on the small car platform so there's no way that Ford would adopt a single brand platform now. Ford NA would say "just use the Mondeo - you don't need RWD" and the local dealers will say "but Mondeo flopped last time!"

Joes_meat · 11-08-2006, 03:16 PM

I personally think this would be a great idea if Holden could get a quality platform.

There are very few rear-drive mid-sized cars on the market.

I was looking to buy a second hand one early this year. The 3 Series was out of my price range - as was all the european options, and everything else was far too old i.e.(original Torana, Cortina, Bluebird, Corona etc.). I ended up buying the lightest approx 10 year old rear-drive car I could find. A 1370KG VS Commodore.

I think a new Torana would sell very well - with a 4-pot petrol, small 6-pot petrol, turbo 4 or a diesel. (Or the 6.0Litre GenIV). But I for one would not buy one if it were a Daewoo.

MAFIA · 12-08-2006, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulvdb

Technically I think that Ford would have more luck getting it's platform scaled for a car this size but again you have internal Ford competition. There are already 3 car brands on the small car platform so there's no way that Ford would adopt a single brand platform now. Ford NA would say "just use the Mondeo - you don't need RWD" and the local dealers will say "but Mondeo flopped last time!"

Yeah if the Mondeo was RWD or AWD then it would succed but if they keep it FWD then it a flop!

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