The cost of toll roads on the economy

[Franco Cozzo]

Australian drivers are paying billions on major Transurban-operated roads, and the costs will keep rising

In Victoria, there are serious consequences for people who do not pay when they use toll roads.

Drivers can be fined hundreds of dollars, or in extreme cases, face prison time.

Figures obtained by the Peninsula Community Legal Service under freedom of information laws show Fines Victoria issued 252,118 toll fines worth a total of $46 million in 2022-23.

A lawyer from Inner Melbourne Community Legal, Shifrah Blustein, who regularly deals with clients with big toll fines, says the system is unfair.

It is very rare for her clients to have intentionally avoided paying tolls, she said.

In the 2023-24 financial year, 1,465 people faced the Victorian Magistrates Court over toll fines.

Under Victorian government changes introduced in 2020, drivers can only be issued one toll fine per week.

That has led to a sharp drop in the number of fines, which have more than halved from a peak of 600,000 in 2020.

Melbourne

In Melbourne, motorists who live in the outer suburbs can pay a big chunk of their average salary to get into the city.

Drivers heading into the city from the Mornington Peninsula pay about 18 cents per kilometre for the return trip, using both the CityLink and EastLink toll roads.

It is equally taxing on drivers in Greater Dandenong, who may spend about 12 per cent of the area's average salary on tolls for the same trip.

Sydney:

Sydney is threaded with toll roads. More than 150km of them weave through the city.

In Sydney's south, Wollondilly residents who drive to the city every workday can spend about 17 per cent of their average income on tolls.

Motorists travelling from the Hills District to the city every workday can spend about 11 per cent of their average income on tolls.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-10-...ners/104488190

I spend a couple thousand bucks a year on tolls for work getting about Melbourne and around $700/month on fuel,

Sort of curious as to the effects on the economy with toll roads taking out a decent chunk of people's disposable income,

Those of you in states with toll roads, what are you guys spending on tolls?

Causes some interesting issues with heavy vehicles, I do a little bit of heavy haulage work and we'll avoid toll roads and go through suburban areas - because the industry doesn't charge customers for tolls.

[b0son]

It's our own fault. We'll happily take out a loan for a car or home, but criticise the government when they do it. I would much rather the government fund toll roads, and even if they charge a toll for their use, at least it goes back to the taxpayer in services. Privatised major roads are short-sighted, much as airports are.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by b0son

It's our own fault. We'll happily take out a loan for a car or home, but criticise the government when they do it. I would much rather the government fund toll roads, and even if they charge a toll for their use, at least it goes back to the taxpayer in services. Privatised major roads are short-sighted, much as airports are.

Well, maybe your fault, I was in primary school when those decisions happened in the 1990s

[roKWiz]

I seem to recall lots of building of tolls roads well after the 2000's.
Don't like em, don't use them.

[Citroënbender]

It’s not practical for me to wholly avoid them, but I certainly minimise my use.

Worked with a fellow on a job, who’d done time for not paying tolls. He was a ping-pong ace as a result.

I’m not a fan of privatisation in any form; we still have bureaucratic bloat and endemic corruption all around, it won’t improve either way.

[Charliewool]

Blessed to an extent in Melb. Western Suburbs!
Though the trade off for minimal toll roads is the occasional Sudo home invasion or the odd machete attack whilst shopping?

[Citroënbender]

How would crime change with toll roads? The usual suspects would still be bailed with an additional charge of failing to pay tolls.

NSW would slap a toll on the M1 between Werribee and the West Gate, and the M2/M79 to Keilor.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by b0son

It's our own fault. We'll happily take out a loan for a car or home, but criticise the government when they do it. I would much rather the government fund toll roads, and even if they charge a toll for their use, at least it goes back to the taxpayer in services. Privatised major roads are short-sighted, much as airports are.

The way Daniel Andrews/Jacinta Allan government have spent and wasted money in the last ten years gives credit to your solution; only government atm that seems to have unlimited funds to spend compared to others.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

How would crime change with toll roads? The usual suspects would still be bailed with an additional charge of failing to pay tolls.

NSW would slap a toll on the M1 between Werribee and the West Gate, and the M2/M79 to Keilor.

Sydney has a way better road network though, tunnels everywhere and a public transport network that takes you to places you actually want to go.

I don't mind paying tolls but I'd rather the money went towards the government then those flogs over at Transurban

[Big_Daz]

My office is at Bne Airport and has been for 9.5 years and my wife, up until 12 months ago, also worked at the Airport (DFO). Toll's used to kill me... From my place we either go Logan Motorway - Gateway or the tunnels (Clem 7 - Airport Link) which both cost almost the same - $12 each way. So for both of us it was $50 a day. During Covid I worked from home full time (April 2020 - End of 2022) so Toll's where halved but still sucked. They have us by the you know whats though, because if you dont want to pay the toll's during peak hour it just takes 3 times as long.

As it stands now, I am in the office 3 days a week and only use tolls (the 2 tunnels) 1 way as I finish at 11pm so no traffic and can drive around. As another bonus, my wife got a promotion and now doesnt use tolls at all. So for Cost, right now I play about $50 a week on tolls which for the time it saves is worth it.

[roKWiz]

Melbourne's public transport system isn't that bad, it just takes you longer to get about. They need passionate people who are into public transport running it.
Pointless making decisions on routes, fares etc if you are some pollie who has never been on a train in his/her life.

Proven fact, with town planning is larger wider arterial roads produce less pedestrian activity and hence more crime which goes un-noticed.

Problem is most Australian local and state governments consider roads infrastructure as an investment and rail/public transport as a burden.

Nothing is ever going to change until Aussie's give up their reliance on private motor cars just like the US.
We have the opinion of I pay rego so there for I'm going to get every cent out of it.
Truth is rego only pays a tiny portion of road funding and vehicle infrastructure.

[Citroënbender]

I agree that Sydney’s main roads network is far more “functional” than Melbourne’s but that - to me - doesn’t justify costs I’d describe as unreasonable. Plus there’s no moral justification for some of the deliberate efforts to squeeze people onto toll roads instead of free roads by things like reducing lane count.

[aussiblue]

We have none in WA so far thank goodness,

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Melbourne's public transport system isn't that bad, it just takes you longer to get about. They need passionate people who are into public transport running it.
Pointless making decisions on routes, fares etc if you are some pollie who has never been on a train in his/her life.

Proven fact, with town planning is larger wider arterial roads produce less pedestrian activity and hence more crime which goes un-noticed.

Problem is most Australian local and state governments consider roads infrastructure as an investment and rail/public transport as a burden.

Nothing is ever going to change until Aussie's give up their reliance on private motor cars just like the US.
We have the opinion of I pay rego so there for I'm going to get every cent out of it.
Truth is rego only pays a tiny portion of road funding and vehicle infrastructure.

I'm certainly pro public transport, pedestrian and cycling infrastructure, we can reduce the burden on infrastructure if we infill in existing suburbs with good infrastructure rather than new greenfield development.

Buses are a joke though, they're shit public transport because they use roads, that's why the western suburbs of Melbourne with all the new greenfield development is a joke, they mostly only have bus services.

Financially, new greenfield development is wicked for me but it's shit for the state.

Rego may only pay a minimal amount towards road maintenance but there's ~50c/L excise on fuel which also has GST on top of it, so it's not like there's a lack of funding for roads,

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'm certainly pro public transport, pedestrian and cycling infrastructure, we can reduce the burden on infrastructure if we infill in existing suburbs with th good infrastructure rather than new greenfield development.

Financially new greenfield development is wicked for me but it's shit for the state.

Rego may only pay a minimal amount towards road maintenance but there's ~50c/L excise on fuel which also has GST on top of it, so it's not like there's a lack of funding for roads,

or you could move to WA.

Even with fuel excise that is a tiny amount considering the cost to build 1km of freeway in this day and age. Buses work well in $ydney due to their bus lanes and fazed traffic lights.

PS there are only buses here on the coast but they all work reasonably well been getting around no problem.

[roKWiz]

some light reading.

https://www.ptua.org.au/myths/petrol...on%20a%20year.

even less fuel excise because of the uptake of EV's.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

some light reading.

https://www.ptua.org.au/myths/petrol...on%20a%20year.

even less fuel excise because of the uptake of EV's.

Even still at a $25B/year deficit it's not the biggest sink in the budget, we spend more than that on 2% of the population every year.

[BENT_8]

Stop your whinging, atleast you have feeways to get from A to B in a reasonable time frame lol.

Id take a toll rd over Adelaides endless cycle of traffic lights that are timed so finely that unless you speed you get stuck at every set more often than not which I reckon would equate to higher costs as you sit idling over and over again.

The closest thing we have to an inner suburban freeway is both ends of South rd, which is fantastic until you all arrive at the Northern bottleneck at the old brickworks or Southern end at Daws rd at which point all gains are lost.

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'm certainly pro public transport, pedestrian and cycling infrastructure, we can reduce the burden on infrastructure if we infill in existing suburbs with good infrastructure rather than new greenfield development.

Buses are a joke though, they're shit public transport because they use roads, that's why the western suburbs of Melbourne with all the new greenfield development is a joke, they mostly only have bus services.

Financially, new greenfield development is wicked for me but it's shit for the state.

Rego may only pay a minimal amount towards road maintenance but there's ~50c/L excise on fuel which also has GST on top of it, so it's not like there's a lack of funding for roads,

im pro we should all be on scooters, after visiting Vietnam im converted. its so rare to see a vehicle with two people in it.

i say this whilst being part of the problem and driving 8km in a empty ute to park all day in the cbd

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Melbourne's public transport system isn't that bad, it just takes you longer to get about. They need passionate people who are into public transport running it.
Pointless making decisions on routes, fares etc if you are some pollie who has never been on a train in his/her life.

Proven fact, with town planning is larger wider arterial roads produce less pedestrian activity and hence more crime which goes un-noticed.

Problem is most Australian local and state governments consider roads infrastructure as an investment and rail/public transport as a burden.

Nothing is ever going to change until Aussie's give up their reliance on private motor cars just like the US.
We have the opinion of I pay rego so there for I'm going to get every cent out of it.
Truth is rego only pays a tiny portion of road funding and vehicle infrastructure.

In my opinion public transport goes hand in hand with road infrastructure, recently for the first time in 12 years, I had to use the Melbourne train network, which surprising was clean and ran very well compared to when I last worked in the suburban railway industry 30 years ago.
The problem with Melbourne we need that outer ring road and more light Rail which is still a pipe dream.

[fiestaz]

My 35km commute from north west Sydney to Homebush everyday could be a lot quicker if I use tolls everywhere. But I don’t, refuse to spend the money.
But I use one section of toll road on the way home which easily saves me 15-20min.
Been doing this for two years.
Toll started out at roughly $4.80, it is currently $6.20 - ridiculous how much it goes up by.

The m7 raises tolls twice a year.. and currently is 80% road works. Those using it cop the full toll and twice a year rises whilst the full product is not being delivered.

[Citroënbender]

I gave up on the M7 years ago, it’s undersized and unworkable. IMO tolls should be refunded in proportion to unmet promises of transit time.

[Franco Cozzo]

I think I've used the M7 in Sydney once,

Visited a mate in Rooty Hill, got on the Hume and then it was like turn left onto M7 in 750km.

I've used the Northconnex tunnel from Blacktown(?) and popped out near Hornsby, has some fancy night sky thing going on in there which is quite nice,

As well as the other new (?) tunnel that goes from out West to inner city,

I'm out north west, its way easier for me to get to the south eastern suburbs like Dandenong, than it is to go out western suburbs or northern/north eastern suburbs because of the M1/M2 freeway links.

I'm not sure what Melbourne's aversion is to extending light rail network, its already the biggest light rail network globally, you could do it as an interim as a rail connection to Melbourne Airport - extend the 59 tram another 5km and you'd be in Melbourne Airport.

Run 'express' services that go direct from Flinders Street/Elizabeth Street to Melbourne Airport on the 59 and we got a good interim solution for a proper rail connection to Melbourne Airport.

The western suburbs lines, what limited light rail they have still rock ye olde 1970s Z class trams which have a zillion life extension projects tacked onto them.

Reason being is the shit power infrastructure in the western suburbs prevents Yarra Trams from fielding E class trams on those lines, and no one wants to fix it,

So they've come up with the new G class, which is like a povvo spec E class with half its nice shit gone.

[kevino]

Don’t they use b type trams on route 59 too?
Some good ideas there - five kms more track and there s an airport connection

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

Don’t they use b type trams on route 59 too?
Some good ideas there - five kms more track and there s an airport connection

Yep western and north western lines are potato-spec trams, all the old bangers with life extension projects.

E class tram:



B class tram:



Z class tram:



South/South East lines get the E class and the west/north west get the $500 chips,

[CyberWasp]

When you live out on the fringes it is like living in Disney Land as you have to pay the price of admission just to get home every day.

The price of the cost of tolls is added to every transaction in the cost of moving goods or getting trade services ect, so every one pays for it even if they don't use them.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yep western and north western lines are potato-spec trams, all the old bangers with life extension projects.

E class tram:



B class tram:



Z class tram:



South/South East lines get the E class and the west/north west get the $500 chips,

Of course rail
Prime movers- locomotives - trams
Can just be rebuilt time and time and time again
And still perform reasonably effectively
There’s heaps of locomotives pulling freight in Aus and Nz dating back to the 60 s out there doing the freight drag
Trams are just trains on lighter rail same deal rebuild rebuild rebuild

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

When you live out on the fringes it is like living in Disney Land as you have to pay the price of admission just to get home every day.

The price of the cost of tolls is added to every transaction in the cost of moving goods or getting trade services ect, so every one pays for it even if they don't use them.

People are starting to get the shits up over heavy haulage trucks avoiding toll roads and going through suburban areas - we can't incorporate tolls into our charges, because customers wont pay them as the industry doesn't charge them to the customer.

If you include a line item for tolls they won't pay your invoices, or if you include them in the machine rate you're way higher than everyone else.

If you use toll roads for the convenience and time saving, you take a hit in your profit margin to do so, so you hope the time saved you can squeeze in another job.



I love how the ABC has used a LHD car as their title card.

Tomorrow morning I've got to get to the SE suburbs for a 6AM start, so I'll be in the car at the latest 4:30AM departure from home

Non toll commute time:



Toll commute time (M1/M2/M3) - $30 return.



Thats not bad at all avoiding tolls but its based on current traffic conditions, curious to do this comparison during peak hour(s)

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

People are starting to get the shits up over heavy haulage trucks avoiding toll roads and going through suburban areas - we can't incorporate tolls into our charges, because customers wont pay them as the industry doesn't charge them to the customer.

If you include a line item for tolls they won't pay your invoices, or if you include them in the machine rate you're way higher than everyone else.

What is the price difference for a truck to go either way?
I imagine taking a heavy truck through the suburbs does no favours re mechanical sympathy and fuel consumption. Not to mention an increased risk of an incident, taking out a lamp post, traffic light, parked car etc. Or having some crack head driving under neath it taking his head off… next minute the NHVR is on your case inspecting fatigue hours and vehicle road worthiness.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by smoo

What is the price difference for a truck to go either way?
I imagine taking a heavy truck through the suburbs does no favours re mechanical sympathy and fuel consumption. Not to mention an increased risk of an incident, taking out a lamp post, traffic light, parked car etc. Or having some crack head driving under neath it taking his head off… next minute the NHVR is on your case inspecting fatigue hours and vehicle road worthiness.

Depends what time you travel but in peak times it's $45 or there about in peak times and $35 in off peak, if you do a day of driving across the toll roads in the truck it doesn't take much to lose a bit out of your profit.