Toyota Mirai - world record for hydrogen powered vehicle

Syndrome · 12-10-2021, 09:05 PM

https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news...360-kilometres

Drives like a normal car. Emissions are water vapour. Fills as quick as a petrol or diesel car. Only issue is the need to introduce the infrastructure to supply hydrogen at extremely low temperatures.

Franco Cozzo · 12-10-2021, 09:37 PM

Needs more context - tyres at 50 PSI doing 70km/h sitting behind grey nomads travelling between Melbourne and Brisbane for International Bingo Convention 2021

Toyota Australia - I'm available for 'real world' testing if you want to show something more than doctored PR spin

b0son · 12-10-2021, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syndrome

Only issue is the need to introduce the infrastructure to supply hydrogen at extremely low temperatures.

So its a non-starter.

You want petrol, electric, AND hydrogen infrastructure? We cant even get the government to get behind 2 of those simultaneously.

jpd80 · 13-10-2021, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syndrome

https://www.whichcar.com.au/car-news...360-kilometres

Drives like a normal car. Emissions are water vapour. Fills as quick as a petrol or diesel car. Only issue is the need to introduce the infrastructure to supply hydrogen at extremely low temperatures.

That and keeping the cryogenic tank at low temperatures.
Gladstone in central Queensland is set to me a major producer and exporter of hydrogen with a large plant planned for completion in 2023.

**Polyal** · 13-10-2021, 08:45 AM

Electric seems to be the easier of the two which is a shame because I think this is pretty cool.

I wonder what crash testing they do to them and what they need to happen to make it go boom, unless thats a bit of a myth as technology and structures get better and better.

Vesper Martini · 13-10-2021, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

That and keeping the cryogenic tank at low temperatures.
Gladstone in central Queensland is set to me a major producer and exporter of hydrogen with a large plant planned for completion in 2023.

A good point, how much electricity - or coal does it take to maintain that storage temperature

b0son · 13-10-2021, 09:24 AM

The only point to hydrogen would be if we hit some insurmountable energy density limit with batteries that made them impractical for long range. But solid state batteries are expected to have a 2-3-fold improvement over Li ion, so by the time the infrastructure is delivered to support hydrogen, it's already been outgunned by solid state. This seems more like engineers trying to create a market because this stuff is cool to work on.

Vesper Martini · 13-10-2021, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

The only point to hydrogen would be if we hit some insurmountable energy density limit with batteries that made them impractical for long range. But solid state batteries are expected to have a 2-3-fold improvement over Li ion, so by the time the infrastructure is delivered to support hydrogen, it's already been outgunned by solid state. This seems more like engineers trying to create a market because this stuff is cool to work on.

No different from EVs both Hydrogen and electric concepts have been around for years, its only Politics pushing the change.
But I have more faith In Toyota than Tesla to provide a viable product

PS Keep wishing for that Mythical battery that all the EV supporters keep talking about. In the past 40 years, no one has been able to make a solid-state battery that delivers on this promise

b0son · 13-10-2021, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

No different from EVs both Hydrogen and electric concepts have been around for years, its only Politics pushing the change.

Ummm, no? BEV makes more sense than hydrogen in terms of efficiency. Generate the electricity, store the electricity, use the electricity. With hydrogen, its generate electricity, use electricity to generate hydrogen, store the hydrogen, oxidise the hydrogen. Hydrogen fuel cell is only around 2/3 efficiency of battery. So you're adding a whole bunch of extra production and storage infrastructure, and getting a less efficient vehicle to use it.

Quote:

But I have more faith In Toyota than Tesla to provide a viable product

And yet Tesla has the runs on the board with multiple established products and a clear market lead.

Quote:

PS Keep wishing for that Mythical battery that all the EV supporters keep talking about. In the past 40 years, no one has been able to make a solid-state battery that delivers on this promise

Ironic you mentioned Toyota.... they hold the most solid state battery patents of anyone. The fact you mention 'EV supporters' gives you away. I support the technology, whichever is best for the job. Why would I from a purely physics/engineering POV support a less efficient powertrain?

Vesper Martini · 13-10-2021, 10:10 AM

No need to get angry if I don't support your views, and I didn't say hydrogen was any better (at this stage)
But you made comments about Solid state batteries, as you have done before.

but that technology isn't there and it does not seem to be coming, so you cannot use it to support your agenda.

why do you guys get so angry about this?

Vesper Martini · 13-10-2021, 10:18 AM

I must apologies to admins, yet another thread is going to be taken over by EV cant we just appreciate this for what it is

b0son · 13-10-2021, 10:51 AM

not sure why you labelled me as angry? you're the one who seems to be upset that i wont get on the hydrogen bus. i see it as a distraction. its a cool exercise, but its a stopover, not a destination.

solid state batteries are coming, expected by 2030. several major car manufacturers are working on them already. way more than working on hydrogen FWIW...

**kypez** · 13-10-2021, 11:35 AM

I think this tech would be very beneficial for Heavy Transport. I think the EV story well and truly takes care of cars but heavy transport is where Hydrogen shines. Only need a few stations outside of towns for the Road Trains and similar and when they get into town, we can break up the load to small EV based trucks. That way we don't need to over do the infrastructure for them as well.

Its a cool exercise but one that I think should be not be used for cars.

b0son · 13-10-2021, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kypez

I think this tech would be very beneficial for Heavy Transport.

I can see it working in public transport. The buses all live at the depot, the depot can have the necessary filling station. It's not viable to start rolling out filling stations for cars. The cost versus takeup would never be economical.

**kypez** · 13-10-2021, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

I can see it working in public transport. The buses all live at the depot, the depot can have the necessary filling station. It's not viable to start rolling out filling stations for cars. The cost versus takeup would never be economical.

Yes, thats a good one as well. That would work a treat and they have similar setups already in play for the Natural Gas buses.

Agreed, cars make little sense.

Vesper Martini · 13-10-2021, 12:19 PM

good to see you guys deciding what's best for everyone

**kypez** · 13-10-2021, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

good to see you guys deciding what's best for everyone

Woke up on the wrong side of the bed today? "No need to get angry if you don't support my views, and I didn't say there was no place for this technology (at this stage)" ;)

I'm saying the technology being discussed is great and have not dismissed it. And I've added an opinion on how I think it should be used. I'll be sure to remind you of your comment every time you suggest something in the future.

BTW, I reckon the Ford Nucleon would be great for range and emissions. Evil people telling me how to live my life by denying me that car

Vesper Martini · 13-10-2021, 01:21 PM

Here's a seemingly unbiased article I read a few months back
https://www.carsguide.com.au/ev/advi...s-better-82898

The last couple of paragraphs below is what makes me think Hydrogen is more viable for the future, and as above super batteries coming in 2030(which is an age in electronics), sorry I'm cynical Id like to see more evidence, but if GM says its going to happen it must be true right?

"Regardless, hydrogen-powered cars still have a couple of important aces up their sleeve: they charge in around five to 10 minutes compared to EVS ,which can take several hours to fully charge, and you’ll be able to drive them a lot further - think something more like how far you can get on a full tank of petrol. "

"US automotive giant General Motors has recently revealed that it's close to developing a “million-mile” EV battery, so the battle of hydrogen vs electric cars isn’t quite over yet. "

MITCHAY · 13-10-2021, 04:37 PM

Interesting article. Hard to know exactly where we will be in the next decade but this is Australia and I won't be surprised if we are still talking about it like we have been about a fast train for ages

bungarra · 13-10-2021, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

I can see it working in public transport. The buses all live at the depot, the depot can have the necessary filling station. It's not viable to start rolling out filling stations for cars. The cost versus takeup would never be economical.

WA ran a number of hydrogen fuel buses on two different trial bases. Change of government, change of policy.

Definitely ran cleaner and certainly didn't detonate engines or into fireballs like the CNG and LPG buses have done.

**kypez** · 13-10-2021, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungarra

WA ran a number of hydrogen fuel buses on two different trial bases. Change of government, change of policy.

Definitely ran cleaner and certainly didn't detonate engines or into fireballs like the CNG and LPG buses have done.

They'd be much nicer to drive with their electric motors doing the driving.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

whynot · 13-10-2021, 05:50 PM

Kudos to Toyota to keep pushing the engineering boundaries with hydrogen. It is capitalism in action and I hope they get suitable financial rewards for their efforts.

I suspect that we will need hydrogen, batteries, and traditional fossil fuels going forward. Each with its preferred application (e.g. city, long distance, trucking, underground mining, etc).

**Fordman1** · 13-10-2021, 06:17 PM

A hairy old chestnut.

It takes more energy to produce usable Hydrogen fuel then that fuel can provide.

CyberWasp · 13-10-2021, 07:14 PM

There is another alternative fuel that will soon raise its hand to compete against Hydrogen.
Believe it or not it will be Ammonia.

b0son · 13-10-2021, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyberWasp

There is another alternative fuel that will soon raise its hand to compete against Hydrogen.
Believe it or not it will be Ammonia.

That's fuel cells, but there's also synthetic hydrocarbons for garden variety ICE's. Some of the people in F1 management are keen to go down this route.

Vesper Martini · 14-10-2021, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordman1

A hairy old chestnut.

It takes more energy to produce usable Hydrogen fuel then that fuel can provide.

Just one of the reasons hydrogen was canned many years ago. there was a craze in the late 90s you probably saw the Movie chain Reaction. the problem then was stability.
this could be another reason Hydrogen doesn't succeed the public perception could be worse than LPG..

but there does seem to be advances in technology to produce Hydrogen, see article above where money is being invested.

Despite being expensive to produce its pretty frugal

5.65 kilograms of hydrogen to travel 1360 would be more efficient than diesel?

cost of production is always a factor the mythical super battery coming in 2030 LOL... solid state batteries cost even more to produce atm

b0son · 14-10-2021, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

5.65 kilograms of hydrogen to travel 1360 would be more efficient than diesel?

There's about 3.5x the exhaust gas output in hydrogen versus diesel, per kg. So yes, substantially more efficient if you ignore the input cost.

Vesper Martini · 14-10-2021, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

There's about 3.5x the exhaust gas output in hydrogen versus diesel, per kg. So yes, substantially more efficient if you ignore the input cost.

and the output is drinkable water I'm told.

barra240t · 10-11-2022, 01:22 PM

Just heard a Spotify ad on Mirai, good looking car and looks like Toyota are now marketing it more.

https://www.toyota.com.au/mirai

Sprintey · 10-11-2022, 06:55 PM

This is actually pretty exciting. And it is an EV given it's driven by electric motors iirc. Toyota are testing the water much like they did with the original Prius.

Australia is blessed with lithium, rare earths for the motors, sunshine and wind to generate hydrogen etc. We will become an alternate energy superpower.

When it comes to the energy cost argument, hydrogen takes more energy to convert, but boson you are not mentioning the energy required to make a new battery, install said battery, and recycle the old battery at about 8-10 years. Or the co$t.

Cryogenic fuel tank and storage is probably the toughest technical challenge for the Mirai and kindred spirits, will they decay like a lithium battery (don't think so) or will they be more like the LPG tanks in Falcons? I can see these as awesome country cars.

Imagine these things in a ute, dual cab or something like a 200 LandCruiser. Give it a rev and water the plants.