Alright AFF, lets lower the road toll...: Discussion

[XCwillo]

This thread is for discussion only regarding the Solutions thread
All Solution ideas are to be posted there

So guys, this where we discuss said ideas, and build upon them, and then they get posted in the solutions thread by whoever.

if you haven't yet, go read the Solutions thread now

[prydey]

to be honest, i don't think any new legislation needs to be implemented. they just need to tighten up on a few social issues.

many here may be offended at my next comment but i don't care.

personally i believe one of the biggest problems is drugs. there has always been kids doing stupid things and peer pressure, but these days they don't even know what day it is. thats an extreme i guess but even a small amount in the system can impair your reaction and judgement.

many of the people that do stupid stuff don't abide by legislation anyway, so tightening up the legislation only punishes those who already do the right thing. its not fair on the majority of road users.

there is a ridiculous focus on speeding over the last few years that has also seen a steady decline in a lot of other road rules. there was a video doing the rounds posted by fullnoise of a compilation of footage looking out the windscreen of his b double. clearly, speed is not the issue. there were a few incidents in there that could have ended very differently on another day.

but drugs and alcohol need to be policed a lot more heavily for mine.

i'd almost go as far as saying a lot of those who end up destroying themselves on the road have a unstable family history as well. i think how you get raised at home has a lot to do with it and i think there are parents out there who are responsible for a lot of the mess in society today... but thats another can of worms for another topic i feel.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by prydey

i'd almost go as far as saying a lot of those who end up destroying themselves on the road have a unstable family history as well.

I'd be wary with comments like this one prydey.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by XCwillo

This thread is for discussion only regarding the Solutions thread
All Solution ideas are to be posted there

So guys, this where we discuss said ideas, and build upon them, and then they get posted in the solutions thread by whoever.

if you haven't yet, go read the Solutions thread now

Well we could ban old cars not fitted with modern safety technology and make it a criminal offense for untrained P platers to work on any motor vehicle as well as jailing any p plater who substantially modifies a vehicle to look like something out of a horror movie.

Be careful what you wish for Willo......

[XCwillo]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well we could ban old cars not fitted with modern safety technology and make it a criminal offense for untrained P platers to work on any motor vehicle as well as jailing any p plater who substantially modifies a vehicle to look like something out of a horror movie.

Be careful what you wish for Willo......

What sort of stupid P plater would do that!

I see what you mean but your average officer would beleive you if you told him the MSD box was a battery booster and everything else is stock. Unless it was Mr Carr ofcourse >.<

[FrogInASock]

When I started to drive (open licence in 1988) a common and good first car was a 1970's Kingswood or Torana, more than often the six cylinder versions. The High Compression 202 in a HQ produced an earth shattering 101kW and 263Nm, more than adequate in 1988 driven by some 18 year old hoon! The true "hoon cars" were the same things powered by 253's or 308's. And if you were lucky enough to have a Dad with an XW-XY GT and willing to let you drive it, you were the envy off all your mates!

Today's turbo terrors are pumping out double this power at full noise and it comes on fast. I don't know if it's just what's reported in the news, but it seems like every other car crash, young driver or not, involves a Skyline or Silvia turbo. And their prices are well within the reach of an 18 year old.

IMHO, therein lies a decent amount of the problem. The powers that be have done something to affect this (banning P Platers from driving turbos in many states) but is it enough?

As a disclaimer, a car is still just a tool, no more or less dangerous than the driver. There are, however, some dangerous drivers out there.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by FrogInASock

When I started to drive (open licence in 1988) a common and good first car was a 1970's Kingswood or Torana, more than often the six cylinder versions. The High Compression 202 in a HQ produced an earth shattering 101kW and 263Nm, more than adequate in 1988 driven by some 18 year old hoon! The true "hoon cars" were the same things powered by 253's or 308's. And if you were lucky enough to have a Dad with an XW-XY GT and willing to let you drive it, you were the envy off all your mates!

Today's turbo terrors are pumping out double this power at full noise and it comes on fast. I don't know if it's just what's reported in the news, but it seems like every other car crash, young driver or not, involves a Skyline or Silvia turbo. And their prices are well within the reach of an 18 year old.

IMHO, therein lies a decent amount of the problem. The powers that be have done something to affect this (banning P Platers from driving turbos in many states) but is it enough?

As a disclaimer, a car is still just a tool, no more or less dangerous than the driver. There are, however, some dangerous drivers out there.

Yes the car is just a tool. The problem is that sometimes the driver is a tool as well.....

[Elks]

I just read this thread and its twin "solutions" thread and I'm very concerned. Other than Flappists sarcasm, there is nothing worthwhile here. Yet we are all up in arms at the continued loss of life, and the increasingly draconian penaties that are imposed upon us that do nothing to stop it.

Accidents can happen, the OP is talking about having a sensible discussion, seeking to find ways to lower the toll BEFORE some boffin has all cars fitted with speed limiting GPS tracker with inbuilt invoicing and access to your bank with direct debit facilities.

The Factors - in no particular order.

Inappropriate speed - Sometimes 140+ is fine others 40 is way too fast.
Poor road design
Poor road maintenance
Distractions / Inattentiveness
Low driving skills (for a given situation)
Poorly maintained vehicles
Poorly designed vehicles (well maintained, but a death trap anyway- Holden Shuttle)
Impaired driving - Alcohol, Illicit Drugs, Prescription Drugs, the Flu..

There will be no 'magic bullet" solution. It will come from lots of small improvements. Rep points to XCwillo, for a positive thread.

I'll have a think and post some solutions later.

My 2c

T

[Walkinshaw]

How about registering road toll against total numbers of licenced persons. Should look at fatalities/100,000 licenced persons.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Walkinshaw

How about registering road toll against total numbers of licenced persons. Should look at fatalities/100,000 licenced persons.

In addition to that how about:

Deaths per accident
Accidents per registered vehicles
Accidents per licensed drivers
Accidents per km traveled

And then compare that to every year since 1970.

Probably not something the do-gooders want known really......

[GT-E]

There is only ONE thing that will reduce the road toll and that is DRIVER TRAINING.
Make EVERYONE sit either their driving or knowladge test every 5 years.
Make the license requirements the same Oz wide
Remove the foreign language options on driving tests, if you cannot read English then you get no license
Any serious traffic offences would result in the impounding of your car for the duration of the offence. This would be for DUI, unlicensed, unrego, hooning, dangerous driving, etc.
Remove points on licenses, but make the fines higher
Have different grades of licenses that determin what type of cars/bikes you can drive/ride.
A total standardisation of all road rules
A review on the pathetic speed limits that seem to change every 200m.
BAN SPEED CAMERAS, but have readlight cameras on most traffic lights.

If drivers are better trained then road conditions should not have such an impact. As a skilled driver you know it is not safe to do 100km/h in fog, even if the sign says 100km/h zone. You also know you need to look as far ahead as possible, not 6ft in front of your car.
The problem is with my suggestions is that it will cost more money than it makes as governments do not give a crap about road toll, only tolling the road users with fines, taxes and punnishments.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Elks

I just read this thread and its twin "solutions" thread and I'm very concerned. Other than Flappists sarcasm, there is nothing worthwhile here.

i just don't think you will ever stop people falling off the road. extra legislation just punishes those who do the right thing.

young kids are 10ft tall and bulletproof. forceing them to do an advanced driver course will only make them think they are even more invincible.

inexperience is something everyone starts with. when starting out its very easy to be distracted, whether by those inside your car or out. i thnk a lot of people have forgotten their own youth. we all did silly things, whether it be speeding or whatever. like jeremy clarkson has said, you won't ever stop it.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by GT-E

There is only ONE thing that will reduce the road toll and that is DRIVER TRAINING.

As I mentioned in the other thread, everyone with driver training, this, that, it costs money, would you be willing to foot the bill? Increased taxes, more speed cameras, etc.

Its all good pushing these things but the moment money comes into the equation everyones tone changes.

All this mention of harder license tests, retesting everyone every year or so, has anyone here recently tried to book in a license test at VicRoads? Its a 3 month wait at my closest office. They would have to hire more examiners and staff, which also costs $$$.

I've got a great idea for road safety/hooning, blanket ban on all 8 cylinder vehicles, "high powered" 6 cylinder vehicles and forced induction, only allow exemptions on forced induction for "fuel efficient" vehicles like the new VW range of 1.4L TSI engines and for 8 cylinder vehicles strictly for work purposes. If that fails, just increase taxes on these vehicles so it pushes them out of the range of anyone but the rich. Traffic light GP is going to be between Barina and Fiesta instead of SS vs XR8.

You all supported it 3 years ago, whats good for the goose is good for the gander? Right? As far as Victoria Police is concerned, its "working", so why can't it "work" for the rest of us?

Thats about as far as "saving lives" goes for the government, ban this, tax that, its cheaper than driver training, just disguise it as saving the children and everyone will give up their freedoms.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

As I mentioned in the other thread, everyone with driver training, this, that, it costs money, would you be willing to foot the bill? Increased taxes, more speed cameras, etc.

Its all good pushing these things but the moment money comes into the equation everyones tone changes.

All this mention of harder license tests, retesting everyone every year or so, has anyone here recently tried to book in a license test at VicRoads? Its a 3 month wait at my closest office. They would have to hire more examiners and staff, which also costs $$$.

I've got a great idea for road safety/hooning, blanket ban on all 8 cylinder vehicles, "high powered" 6 cylinder vehicles and forced induction, only allow exemptions on forced induction for "fuel efficient" vehicles like the new VW range of 1.4L TSI engines and for 8 cylinder vehicles strictly for work purposes. If that fails, just increase taxes on these vehicles so it pushes them out of the range of anyone but the rich. Traffic light GP is going to be between Barina and Fiesta instead of SS vs XR8.

You all supported it 3 years ago, whats good for the goose is good for the gander? Right? As far as Victoria Police is concerned, its "working", so why can't it "work" for the rest of us?

Thats about as far as "saving lives" goes for the government, ban this, tax that, its cheaper than driver training, just disguise it as saving the children and everyone will give up their freedoms.

Here's an idea, how about user pays.

Instead of shiny 20" rims and stripes you must PASS an advanced driving course that you pay for EVERY year until you get an open license and then passing a course is a pre-requisite to license renewal.

I have to pay for a Biennial Flight Review (flying competency test every 2 years) to be allowed to fly and if I want or fly in cloud an instrument renewal every 12 months. It is part of the cost of flying.

Maybe the cost of driving is too low and money should be spent on skill updating rather than doof doof, bling and bolt ons.

[jpd80]

I did my part by convincing my elderly mum to hand in her license and get rid of her old XF.
If everyone could convince someone they care about to not drive on the road endangering
themselves and possibly others too, I believe the roads would be a much safer place.


So, I will make it my mission to try and get some of the local SS Commodore owners to hand in their licenses....

[XCwillo]

Originally Posted by prydey

young kids are 10ft tall and bulletproof. forceing them to do an advanced driver course will only make them think they are even more invincible.

Like i said in the other thread.
Its not about how often they do the stupid things, its that when that thing occurs, they have some idea of how to handle it. Having a teenager with an extra bit of ego being able to stop his car mid spin before hitting a tree and killing his mates is better then a teenager with a little ego having a panic attack and letting go of the steering wheel.

Thats what im trying to say as the whole point of driver training! Its about lowering the road toll.

Originally Posted by flappist

So which advanced driving course did you enjoy attending the most?

Exactly, it wasn't compulsory, so I had none. And because of the fact I had none, i would say that contributed to why i spun out a few months back on murphy street, being my first experiance with losing control of the car, where as if i had training, i may of been able to give the steering wheel that one whip that would of made me stay on the dirt instead of going back on the tarmac

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by flappist

In addition to that how about:

Deaths per accident
Accidents per registered vehicles
Accidents per licensed drivers
Accidents per km traveled

And then compare that to every year since 1970.

Probably not something the do-gooders want known really......

How do you go about finding this info though? Should be able to get it with the Freedom of information act some how.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by flappist

Here's an idea, how about user pays.

Instead of shiny 20" rims and stripes you must PASS an advanced driving course that you pay for EVERY year until you get an open license and then passing a course is a pre-requisite to license renewal.

Maybe the cost of driving is too low and money should be spent on skill updating rather than doof doof, bling and bolt ons.

I'd gladly do that, as long as we get rid of restrictions, gotta have it both ways. I had to pay for my driving lessons, hazard perception test, my license test booking fee, the license test and the use of my driving instructors car for an hour.

You know what the driving lessons taught me? How to pass the test. The whole system needs an overhaul, from the legislation to the kid driving the car.

[g220ba]

Improved driver training, mandatory defensive driver coarses and enforcement of all basic traffic laws (not just speeding as seems the case at the moment) will all have a massive impact on driving standards in this country. May not have an impact on the road toll instantly but with time things may change. Yes there are extra costs involved but the the fact is getting a license in victoria at least is way too easy.

Driver attitude, respect and concentration are 3 major factors limiting any coarse of action the government takes. Nobody cares about anyone but themselves out there on the roads (This would probably be more a reflection of the society we live in).

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

I'd gladly do that, as long as we get rid of restrictions, gotta have it both ways. I had to pay for my driving lessons, hazard perception test, my license test booking fee, the license test and the use of my driving instructors car for an hour.

You know what the driving lessons taught me? How to pass the test. The whole system needs an overhaul, from the legislation to the kid driving the car.

So have you actually complete a defensive or advance driving course?

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by XCwillo

Compulsory advanced Driving course during L's
This is already law in some countries, where young drivers are required by law to undertake a lesson or so before getting their license
Its not hard to take a weekend out of a year to head to your nearest facility.
Training young drivers how to deal with situations saves them panicking when they face it for the first time on the roads, resulting in serious injury or death

{Taken form Solutions thread**

I have been saying this for a long time. I would like to see it go further though, and be compulsory before obtaining P's and again before obtaining an Open License. I would like to see it cumpulsory before a license is renewed. Personally I would like to see that licensing be more about passing an advanced driver training course with competance than it is about using indicators and doing 3 point turns. Reading some frightenening things in the paper about speeding tolerances in license tests is a real cause for concern. It sounds like license tests have been dumbed down in the last 20 years.

Originally Posted by XCwillo

Exactly, it wasn't compulsory, so I had none. And because of the fact I had none, i would say that contributed to why i spun out a few months back on murphy street, being my first experiance with losing control of the car, where as if i had training, i may of been able to give the steering wheel that one whip that would of made me stay on the dirt instead of going back on the tarmac

Driver training does not need to be compulsory to be off benefit. You do it to learn more about car control, and safer driving practises.

Far the past 3 years as a member of a car club, I have participated in a Skidpan day at Roadcraft in Gympie. These days have been great fun, with knowledgable instructors and an emphasis on having fun. The past 2 years, our members were allowing their kids to have a go. I am talking about 14 and 15 year olds in XR8's and the like.

This year, our P plate members were not even allowed to have a go. The reason: too many local P platers were leaving Roadcraft at the end of the day, and doing burnouts up the street. When pulled over by the Police, their reasoning was "we were practising what we were just taught". These fools kicked themselves in the backsides, and spoiled it for all other P platers while they were at it.

Now unfortunately for you Willo, that just means one more place you can't do a driver traing course.

Originally Posted by Big Damo
As I mentioned in the other thread, everyone with driver training, this, that, it costs money, would you be willing to foot the bill? Increased taxes, more speed cameras, etc.

Its all good pushing these things but the moment money comes into the equation everyones tone changes.

As far as who pays? Who pays for your license renewal? Who paid for your driving lessons? People need to stop putting their hands out for Government assistance everytime a proposal is put forward that may cost them more money. Don't like the cost, don't drive. Its that simple. Why should I work my *** off to pay more in taxes so you can go through driver training? I pay enough in tax as it is.

Originally Posted by Big Damo
I'd gladly do that, as long as we get rid of restrictions, gotta have it both ways. I had to pay for my driving lessons, hazard perception test, my license test booking fee, the license test and the use of my driving instructors car for an hour.

You know what the driving lessons taught me? How to pass the test. The whole system needs an overhaul, from the legislation to the kid driving the car.

I disagree. The one that can never be taught is experience. While driver training may teach you how to overcome certain situations better, it will never give you enough on road experience. By being a little restricted for a short time, you will be able to practice your skills and new found knowledge in a slightly safer manner. Its only for 3 years, its not for life.

[prydey]

sorry, i just can't agree with the view that extra driver training is required just because a minority fall off the road. there is a very large percentage of people on the road who have never had an accident, and probably a lot who have had no 'at fault' accidents. too many people treat driving as some sort of right once they obtain a little piece of paper or plastic saying they can drive. they then go out and treat the road like some sort of track. i'm not necessarily talking about speeding either. pushing your car through corners, excessive braking/accelerating, swerving/weaving in traffic etc etc. if people just used the roads and cars as a means of transport and getting from a to b, there would be a lot less carnage. if everyone learned to share and realise the guy in front has just as much right to be there as you do instead of needing to always be at the front of the queue etc etc.

many people just drive. car enthusiasts often get tarred with the same brush as hoons as they are the ones who enjoy cars and driving them and are often the ones who are seen 'standing out' amongst the crowd. they are the ones who like to power around corners, take off fast etc etc.

most of the time, the really bad accidents are from people being idiots. its got nothing to do with licencing being too soft or rules being too relaxed.

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by prydey

sorry, i just can't agree with the view that extra driver training is required just because a minority fall off the road. there is a very large percentage of people on the road who have never had an accident, and probably a lot who have had no 'at fault' accidents. too many people treat driving as some sort of right once they obtain a little piece of paper or plastic saying they can drive. they then go out and treat the road like some sort of track. i'm not necessarily talking about speeding either. pushing your car through corners, excessive braking/accelerating, swerving/weaving in traffic etc etc. if people just used the roads and cars as a means of transport and getting from a to b, there would be a lot less carnage. if everyone learned to share and realise the guy in front has just as much right to be there as you do instead of needing to always be at the front of the queue etc etc.

many people just drive. car enthusiasts often get tarred with the same brush as hoons as they are the ones who enjoy cars and driving them and are often the ones who are seen 'standing out' amongst the crowd. they are the ones who like to power around corners, take off fast etc etc.

most of the time, the really bad accidents are from people being idiots. its got nothing to do with licencing being too soft or rules being too relaxed.

Just a couple of questions, followed by a couple of examples.

1. How long have you been driving?

2. Have you ever done a driver training course?

I succesfully obtained my P's on my first go in January, 1991. I have never lost my license. That puts me at driving solo almost 20 years. (Next month).

In that 20 years, cars and the technology contained in them has changed dramatically. Safety features, ABS, ESP, SRS, CC, PS, etc,etc, have all become standard. Compare that to my first car which was a Kingswood.

The way I was taught to hold a steering wheel while straight is correct. How I was shown to turn that same wheel is now incorrect. All these years with airbag wheels, I was swapping hands over the top of the wheel, crossing my hands, when I should have been feeding the wheel through hand to hand. I was astounded to learn how many people die from their watches hitting them in the foreheads by way of the airbag in a relatively small accident.

Yesterday I had my Builder Chrissy party. I took 2 of my workers and we headed down the Coast. I opted to be the designated driver, in my workers 4 door 4WD Toyota Hilux ute. I have never driven the car, or 1 like it. It was raining. I came around a roundabout at low speed, but I still felt the rear coming around. I was not pushing the car, I was not trying to do anything silly, I just did not know the car.

The once it started to go just felt like it would keep going if left. I was able to regain control quickly, effectively, and most importantly safely. Skills I learnt at a driver traing day. Its one thing to know what your own car will do in certain circumstances. Its completley different to know what other people cars will do. Knowledge, training and experience will certainly go a long way.

Thirdly, when i was taught, you had to indicate left to exit a roundabout. Even on the straight through, (or second exit), you had to indicate left. Since I learnt to drive, I have heard that that is no longer the case. I have also changed States with different road rules and different parking distance and allowances from corners. Driving Training / Education would go a long to helping with these sorts of things. There is alot more to it than just dollars and a waste of a day.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

Just a couple of questions, followed by a couple of examples.

1. How long have you been driving?

2. Have you ever done a driver training course?

I succesfully obtained my P's on my first go in January, 1991. I have never lost my license. That puts me at driving solo almost 20 years. (Next month).

In that 20 years, cars and the technology contained in them has changed dramatically. Safety features, ABS, ESP, SRS, CC, PS, etc,etc, have all become standard. Compare that to my first car which was a Kingswood.

The way I was taught to hold a steering wheel while straight is correct. How I was shown to turn that same wheel is now incorrect. All these years with airbag wheels, I was swapping hands over the top of the wheel, crossing my hands, when I should have been feeding the wheel through hand to hand. I was astounded to learn how many people die from their watches hitting them in the foreheads by way of the airbag in a relatively small accident.

Yesterday I had my Builder Chrissy party. I took 2 of my workers and we headed down the Coast. I opted to be the designated driver, in my workers 4 door 4WD Toyota Hilux ute. I have never driven the car, or 1 like it. It was raining. I came around a roundabout at low speed, but I still felt the rear coming around. I was not pushing the car, I was not trying to do anything silly, I just did not know the car.

The once it started to go just felt like it would keep going if left. I was able to regain control quickly, effectively, and most importantly safely. Skills I learnt at a driver traing day. Its one thing to know what your own car will do in certain circumstances. Its completley different to know what other people cars will do. Knowledge, training and experience will certainly go a long way.

Thirdly, when i was taught, you had to indicate left to exit a roundabout. Even on the straight through, (or second exit), you had to indicate left. Since I learnt to drive, I have heard that that is no longer the case. I have also changed States with different road rules and different parking distance and allowances from corners. Driving Training / Education would go a long to helping with these sorts of things. There is alot more to it than just dollars and a waste of a day.

well well, i've also been driving for close to 20yrs. i was taught to steer feeding it through your hands so obviously it depends on the teacher. also indicating rules at roundabouts varied from state to state but i believe with the introduction of national road rules a few years back, it is now law to indicate when exiting a roundabout.

i've driven many different vehicles in many different conditions and never had one try to swap ends on me unprovoked. i've never done extra driving courses. if your car is trying to swap ends on you then i'm sorry but there is more to the story. cars don't just do that. maybe what you thought was slow enough - wasn't.

look at the earlier comments regarding the size of the population now and the increased safety of the cars and garaunteed the death toll versus population is a lot less than many years ago. many more cars on the road and way fewer deaths doesn't add any weight to the argument that extra driver training is required.

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by prydey

i've driven many different vehicles in many different conditions and never had one try to swap ends on me unprovoked. i've never done extra driving courses. if your car is trying to swap ends on you then i'm sorry but there is more to the story. cars don't just do that. maybe what you thought was slow enough - wasn't.

The owner of the vehicle actually told me that it does it to him quite often aswell. I suggested he change tyres. My XR8 or SSV could have gone through quite a lot quicker. I was actually going quite slowly and it was very surprising how easily it slipped out.

The point to pushing the driver training involves the many little details that you learn. I have only ever had 2 very minor accidents (both under 15 k's an hour) when I was on my P's. But the day you stop learning, is the day you stop living.

[Neale]

Originally Posted by flappist

Here's an idea, how about user pays.

Instead of shiny 20" rims and stripes you must PASS an advanced driving course that you pay for EVERY year until you get an open license and then passing a course is a pre-requisite to license renewal.

I have to pay for a Biennial Flight Review (flying competency test every 2 years) to be allowed to fly and if I want or fly in cloud an instrument renewal every 12 months. It is part of the cost of flying.

Maybe the cost of driving is too low and money should be spent on skill updating rather than doof doof, bling and bolt ons.

definatly agree on this one. The thing that alot of people forget is that driving is a privilage not a right.

[ZDI-970]

i think limmiting certain vehicles to certain speeds would help. (and by limmiting i meanthey can still do 100 or so, for overtaking etc, but are only alowed to do 90 or something like that in the 100zone) for example lots of 1980s-1990s vans look like they will roll over when going around the slightest bends at 100ks

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by flappist

The problem is that sometimes the driver is a tool as well.....

[platinumXR]

I would propose, that the some important issues to consider are:

1. Access to vehicle types, - they are 'Learning' after all, time, statistics and history has shown that kids, like it or not - can't be trusted to drive around slowly and safely in an R8 Clubsport or a EVO / WRX or whatever; and not give it some herbs...I thought humans were supposed to be pragmatic?

2. BETTER and more COMPREHENSIVE training, which should include more, I will say it again...MORE emphasis on roadcraft, attitude and consequences - show them MORE of the bad stuff. My time in the VRA cutting drunk 'tards out of mangled wrecks changed my attitudes a bit, they need to know they are not Ken Block the instant they are given the privelige of having a license,

3. Possibly even INCENTIVES and REWARDS to adhere to rules they are naturally opposed to,

4. Bluetooth phone kit or whatever MANDATORY and no license renewal/ category upgrade / rego, unless it is there. They are less than $200 and connect to ANY phone.

Some things to think about. JMHO.

[prydey]

its easy to come out and say what restrictions should be in place when it will have no effect on you. there wouldn't be many 16-20yr olds advocating all the things that are being thrown about on here. sometimes you have to look at things from others point of view, or even look back and see what it was like when you were that age.

i agree cars these days do get to silly speeds a lot quicker so you can find yourself in trouble after a short burst on the throttle but a toyota corolla, even an older model one, will still do 160.

blanket bans on v8's are archaic. we all know most modern 6cyl will run rings around 90's and earlier v8's. car restrictions should be based on power to weight only if they want to implement that sort of legislation. otherwise there are too many cars that its just not logical to ban.

ok here's a novel idea. how are these young kids paying for their cars? my folks weren't into giving handouts. they raised us to appreciate that if you want something, you have to work to get money. the more it cost, the harder and longer you had to work for it. no bank loan. no family loan. this meant that first cars were rather primitive. maybe they need to implement something along those lines. no finance for a motorvehicle if you are under a certain age. also what it does, if you have to work hard and save to buy a car, you tend to look after the car a lot better. you appreciate things more.

i would prefer to look at ideas that are outside the normal 'driver training, ban fast cars, etc' attitude. i've mentioned earlier, it only serves to punish those who are prepared to obey the law in the first place.