Crazy idea -Ford, Holden AU large car JV

[turbodewd]

Imagine if GM n Ford could put together a JV for their AU operations to make a large car.

1. You would get economies of scale from larger production, ergo cheaper.

2. You could draw upon combined technologies.

3. Could be exported to LHD countries (that dont have a closed market).

4. Could easily produce a Ford front fascia and a Holden one too.

There are a lot of synergies, for example - Ford have the 2.0L Ecoboost, Holden have the aluminium panels. Alas the I6 would have to go, its too long to fit in the Holden engine bay i suspect. Ford AU have superior steering rack as well right? Others would know better than me on the various strengths of each operation. The ZF gearbox too.

A bit like how Ford and Mazda have the Ranger and BT-50.

Make it happen Tony Abbot! (he could lobby for it)

Surely this is a good idea!?!?!?

[FGX-351]

Well if it's going to run Ford engines I wonder if the Holden boys will swap the Chev badges for Ford badges? lol

[nstg8a]

Be like getting the wallabies and all blacks to play together against the French....

[Brazen]

I like the idea of them doing a new type of vehicle from scratch.

A large turbo diesel Landcruiser-type wagon, ute and dual cab ute to be co-funded by the Government, Ford and Holden. It would be sold under the Ford and Holden banner with slight aesthetic changes to each. It could be targetted domestically at mining, farming, towing and 4wd segments and will be relatively immune to currency as it would be a relatively expensive, high-value, high-quality niche product to be exported as a premium and rugged off-roader. The Australian answer to Patrol, Landcruiser and Landrover Defender/Discovery and targeting sales as well in Europe, Africa and the Middle East badged as a Chev or Ford.

I like the idea of a badge-engineered commercial/4wd vehicle instead of a passenger vehicle. A badge engineered passenger vehicle is usually seen in a negative light, a cheap clone of one another. Whereas a 4wd/commercial would have benefits. It means that parts and servicing can be done at both Ford and Holden dealers around the country, it would mean that in remote parts of Australia you have access to more parts than otherwise as some areas have Ford dealers and some have Holden so you could use this to overcome the Toyota presense out in the bush and which is used to promote mining sales.

[turbodewd]

I figure if the large car platform has good production numbers you could justify the production of panel vans, coupe-like cars too. You'd still have utes and a regular stationwagon would return to the Ford lineup. Thus further increasing the production numbers.

The AU car market is flooded with makes n models...its a way of taking on this competition.

Hell, the Fed Govt could start a tender process for a national car, a bit like how we tendered out the Collins class subs.

Fed Govt says: build large car, must also support additional body types of ute, stationwagon, SUV, panel van. Must have 4 cylinder option (EcoBoost).

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I like the idea of them doing a new type of vehicle from scratch.

A large turbo diesel Landcruiser-type wagon, ute and dual cab ute to be co-funded by the Government, Ford and Holden. It would be sold under the Ford and Holden banner with slight aesthetic changes to each. It could be targetted domestically at mining, farming, towing and 4wd segments and will be relatively immune to currency as it would be a relatively expensive, high-value, high-quality niche product to be exported as a premium and rugged off-roader. The Australian answer to Patrol, Landcruiser and Landrover Defender/Discovery and targeting sales as well in Europe, Africa and the Middle East badged as a Chev or Ford.

I like the idea of a badge-engineered commercial/4wd vehicle instead of a passenger vehicle. A badge engineered passenger vehicle is usually seen in a negative light, a cheap clone of one another. Whereas a 4wd/commercial would have benefits. It means that parts and servicing can be done at both Ford and Holden dealers around the country, it would mean that in remote parts of Australia you have access to more parts than otherwise as some areas have Ford dealers and some have Holden so you could use this to overcome the Toyota presense out in the bush and which is used to promote mining sales.

Problem is it would clash with Ford and GM's "global" body-on-frame SUV's and pickups. Head Office would do their damndest to not support it. But I like the idea...hey I know a company that has developed and makes a home-grown SUV...

[flappist]

I can see one tiny problem with this plan.

For more than half a century there has be an artificial tribalisation of the Ford/Holden community to the extent that outright hostility is quite common.

The Falcon and Commodore markets are almost completely indigenous and a Falcadore would be shunned by a significant percentage of the potential market out of sheer bloodymindedness.

Just look at the reaction to that NZ mustang/kingswood stunt.

http://www.carscoops.com/2010/05/fol...eate-half.html

[tranquilized]

The first thing that would need to happen is having the Government nationalise our auto industry, as in take ownership from Ford, GM and Toyota and have the entire local operations Australian owned. Only then would the right decisions be made to keep the industry viable.

But things like that tend not to happen in democratic, capitalist countries...

[mash again]

i like the folden, ford man all my life but always liked eh and hq, cant explain it, i have tried creams and tablets but nothing works!

[GT450]

For more than half a century there has be an artificial tribalisation of the Ford/Holden community to the extent that outright hostility is quite common.

Nothing artificial about it just the way it has evolved over the decades and i for one want it to remain that way. It would be like Collingwod and Carlton getting together. The local car industry will need to change if it is to survive, but this idea is just lunacy.
It was tongue in cheek ...right. LOL
GT450

[turbodewd]

Originally Posted by GT450

For more than half a century there has be an artificial tribalisation of the Ford/Holden community to the extent that outright hostility is quite common.

Nothing artificial about it just the way it has evolved over the decades and i for one want it to remain that way. It would be like Collingwod and Carlton getting together. The local car industry will need to change if it is to survive, but this idea is just lunacy.
It was tongue in cheek ...right. LOL
GT450

No way man, think about it. The Fed govt could put out a tender for a contract to supply X amount of vehicles per year. The requirements would be:

has ute, panel van, large sedan, stationwagon platform, has 4cylinder option. To be made in Australia.

A bit like how we tendered out the Collins class subs (altho subs are much harder to make!)

[Bossxr8]

Last time I checked the government doesn't run Ford or GM, so what does this have to dom with them, they don't make their decisions. Last time I checked they are bitter rivals across the globe.

The government can provide funding but they certainly can't tell them what to do with it.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by turbodewd

A bit like how we tendered out the Collins class subs (altho subs are much harder to make!)

WHY do you keep saying that? Surely you understand that the Collins Class project was disaster from start to finish?

You might also try to remember the last time an Australian Government got involved in a "national car" project? 44 gallon drum in the boot anyone?

The "IDEA" does have merit, a rwd drive developed on a common platform, with the only difference being front & rear hanging panels, cosmetics, interiors, and most importantly engines. Ford Engines in the Blue, Chevy engines in the Red.

UNFORTUNATELY as we saw under the rediculous "Buttons" plan, trying to force multinational competitors to cooperate for the sake of a small market is not feasible. Both Ford and GM would rather sell smaller numbers of one of their products.

[chevypower]

If an investment can't be made without subsidies, then it's obviously not a good idea.

[302 XC]

Originally Posted by Brazen

I like the idea of them doing a new type of vehicle from scratch.

A large turbo diesel Landcruiser-type wagon, ute and dual cab ute to be co-funded by the Government, Ford and Holden. It would be sold under the Ford and Holden banner with slight aesthetic changes to each. It could be targetted domestically at mining, farming, towing and 4wd segments and will be relatively immune to currency as it would be a relatively expensive, high-value, high-quality niche product to be exported as a premium and rugged off-roader. The Australian answer to Patrol, Landcruiser and Landrover Defender/Discovery and targeting sales as well in Europe, Africa and the Middle East badged as a Chev or Ford.

I like the idea of a badge-engineered commercial/4wd vehicle instead of a passenger vehicle. A badge engineered passenger vehicle is usually seen in a negative light, a cheap clone of one another. Whereas a 4wd/commercial would have benefits. It means that parts and servicing can be done at both Ford and Holden dealers around the country, it would mean that in remote parts of Australia you have access to more parts than otherwise as some areas have Ford dealers and some have Holden so you could use this to overcome the Toyota presense out in the bush and which is used to promote mining sales.

Good diea in theory ..
But itll have to be something real fancy and flash to take sales from the tried and trued and every trust worthy Toyota,and nissans
Just like some people are died in the wool holden and ford fan boys, the Toyotas specially in 4x4s run real deep in the blood lines
The other issue would be ,youd need a decent sized donk as well,no eco boost little toy donks, people would think they are prime movers and itll have to be able to tow granma,granpas 26 foot van , so there would have to be a V8 in the mix,that Toyota do in a turbo diesel version and Nissan do in a 300 KW petrol version
Very hard market to crack,and when both sales are so dismal in cars they have made for decades it could be disaster even if both camps joined

[turbodewd]

Originally Posted by chevypower

If an investment can't be made without subsidies, then it's obviously not a good idea.

Are you 100% sure chevyman?? Seems to work in the asian countries. We Westerners shouldnt be so rigid in our views, we should use any means necessary to win.

Although I think the key to success is shown by Toyota, just a relentless focus on quality and eliminating faults.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by turbodewd

Are you 100% sure chevyman?? Seems to work in the asian countries. We Westerners shouldnt be so rigid in our views, we should use any means necessary to win.

Although I think the key to success is shown by Toyota, just a relentless focus on quality and eliminating faults.

Yeah I am sure, if it has to be subsidized, then it means that sales profits won't pay back the cost of development. Why should the taxpayer who doesn't want the product have to pay for it? The other thing about government spending is it takes away the incentive to really make the product work, after all the recipient of the money will receive the grant or subsidy whether the product works or not.

If other countries create an unfair advantage in the global market through subsidies, then tax their imports until they remove the government support.

[baboon]

To OP: No way hose`

[nstg8a]

Car manufacturing is subsidised in practically every country that makes cars. USA is one of the most subsidised isn't it? And Australia one of the least?

[ebv8]

i think its a great idea, would keep alot of jobs here, alot of the parts are made in the same factory anyway
eg: Focus and Mazda 3, same same but totally different.
Falcon would be nothing without Commodore and visa versa.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Car manufacturing is subsidised in practically every country that makes cars. USA is one of the most subsidised isn't it? And Australia one of the least?

Yep overly subsidized and overly regulated.

[minheim]

Can't see it working. Can you remember the old car local plan that encouraged "badge" sharing with minor body differentiation (holden commodore/toyota lexen; falcon ute/nissan ute; holden apollo/toyota camry; nissan pintara/ford corsair etc), The clone version was not not successful and was an inefficient use of money. If economy of scale is required the global parts bin will be used inhouse. Joint venture will require a bigger market than Austrlia and the high aussie dollar means we wont be chosen to export. Holden just got rid of engineering jobs and the next clean sheet commodore will not be aussie designed. You can also bet ther next clean sheet falcon will have a Ford global platform whether imported or made here. There is no marketing sense for the companies to try and flog the same vehicle from a common australian factory and Toyota would not be interested in closely aligning with Ford or Holden manufacturing.

[ebv8]

same sheet metal will never work, but same suspension, diff, trans, so-on might work, have to have a different engine, bodywork and trim.
aka "car of the future" for the roads

[LeadFoot81]

If the the brightest minds from Ford and Holden joined forces to come up with a common platform, it would be a win on so many levels. At one end of the spectrum, Millions could be saved on R&D, at the other end the consumer has access to better (there are many ways to define better) and more competitively priced cars.

Look at the gaming industry, so many studios have utilized the Unreal game engine to create similar and wildly different products that compete with one another. And the customer has won big time.

The world has changed, I don't think any company in any industry can operate in isolation anymore. Definitely not on a big ticket item like a chassis/platform.

[hodge_williams]

yeah lets call it the falcodore

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by ebv8

same sheet metal will never work, but same suspension, diff, trans, so-on might work, have to have a different engine, bodywork and trim.
aka "car of the future" for the roads

How I envisage it is an identical passenger cell, doors, floorpan and chassis pressings and front and rear suspension modules, and the rest of it (interior, front/rear sheet metal, styling, powertrains etc) are sourced or developed by themselves.

But Ford could do this on its own right now simply by dipping into the global parts bin...

[Chopped]

They are trialling this idea in the V8 Supercar series.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Last time I checked the government doesn't run Ford or GM, so what does this have to dom with them, they don't make their decisions. Last time I checked they are bitter rivals across the globe.

Bittr rivals that work on JV transmissions....

I think a JV car is never going to happen as Ford and GM already have their own global products,
wanting scales of economy for Australian manufacturing is at odds with each company's corporate objectives..

[302 XC]

Originally Posted by ebv8

i think its a great idea, would keep alot of jobs here, alot of the parts are made in the same factory anyway

Itll be fine till it can be out sourced and cheaply made elsewhere

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

But Ford could do this on its own right now simply by dipping into the global parts bin...

Exactly and GM has more RWD platforms than it knows what to do with at the moment.