NSW Historic Vehicle Log Book Trial

[PCT302]

The Minister for Roads, Maritime and Freight, Duncan Gay, has asked Transport for NSW and Roads and Maritime Services to develop a Historic Vehicle Log Book Trial.

More info here http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/roads/regi...-vehicles.html

About time

[Simple6]

That's a pretty cool development.

I just wish you could keep your current plates rather getting historic plates when you transfer to the historic rego scheme. My XB has it's original plates....

[PCT302]

Victoria is the same but u always own your current plates personalised or not, so rego on historic permit for 10 years saves around $7000 from rego and insurance then go back to full rego.
$7000 also goes a long way on running costs, petrol etc.

[Snake Bite]

Yeah in sa we can have any Plate we like rather than a special historic one

[Dr Terry]

Hi Guys

We had a meeting last night & here’s what I can tell you. I doubt that anybody is going to be driving on the new rego scheme on 1st Oct. The roll out will be progressive.

The first thing that needs to happen, is the vetting of existing RMS recognised car clubs (those who run H-plates now) so that they can OK cars on the new scheme. It seems that each club, if they wish, will need to apply to be allowed to administer the new system.

Many clubs may not want to go thru the process & some new clubs may be established, but they will be looked at closely.

The easiest cars to put on the system are those legitimately on H-plates currently. So once your club has gone thru the approval process & if your car is currently on H-plates & you want to change to the log-book scheme, then you'll probably be on by Christmas. Unmodified cars with existing full rego will follow.

If the car is modified, then engineering approval (if required) is paramount. It will be self-regulating & this is why it’s called a ‘trial’. Many minor mods will not require engineering. The VSI 6 standards will apply.

On the issue of costs, again they’re not finalised yet, but they hint at a pro-rata rate, so if your current rego figure including CTP is, then divide it by 365 & then multiply by 6, (roughly 1/6 of the total) I believe you could be close. So if your current rego & green slip totals say $900 (a common figure for old cars) then the new scheme should cost around $150.

The big question, when it comes to costs, is insurance. Again, this is a trial & what is learned over the next 2 years will then be adjusted accordingly & put into practice on a permanent basis.

Strangely, number plates are not sorted yet either. No mention was made of any new number plate type (M or S plate or whatever) or it could be that you may be able to use your existing full-rego plate although that seems unlikely according to some. One thing for certain is that rego stickers will be issued, just like H-plated cars. It appears the RMS computer can’t handle concessional rego.

I think the next few months will be interesting to say the least.

Dr Terry

[The Yeti]

Thanks Terry thats an excellent and informative post

I'm currently on H Plates

I would be interested in the 60day log book system and at a ball park of $150 I wouldn't shy away. that said I would use mine maybe 30 days on a good year, and I don't see my usage changing

I can see it being monitored VERY closely and I hope it isn't abused by some who simply want to rip the system off, other wise it would stuff it up for every one.

[Stefan]

Having clubs administer this is the problem. Not sure why everything that governments do is so dam hard.

Have a scheme were you pay for rego on a 30 year old car for either 30, 60, or full rego, 30 or 60 day rego must be accompanied by a logbook with odo entries etc. Must get annual roadworthy with odo noted each year. Must place sticker in window of 30 or 60 day cars so cops can check logbook. If logbook not complete on checking by cop the rego is cancelled for 12 months and 300 dollar fine is given.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Having clubs administer this is the problem. Not sure why everything that governments do is so dam hard.

Have a scheme were you pay for rego on a 30 year old car for either 30, 60, or full rego, 30 or 60 day rego must be accompanied by a logbook with odo entries etc. Must get annual roadworthy with odo noted each year. Must place sticker in window of 30 or 60 day cars so cops can check logbook. If logbook not complete on checking by cop the rego is cancelled for 12 months and 300 dollar fine is given.

Agreed its not rocket science.

I guess from a gov POV they are losing revenue through lower rego and would need staff/system to monitor so they are losing out?

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Agreed its not rocket science.

I guess from a gov POV they are losing revenue through lower rego and would need staff/system to monitor so they are losing out?

The clubs are not doing anything other than signing a piece of paper, the registration is managed by rms.

But I just don't like being dictated to by a club using rego to do so, some clubs are better than others. The club that I use to use have a really poor runs schedule (it use to be really good), if you don't go on 4 runs you are not eligible for rego. So in the last year there were maybe 4 good runs and 2 were rained out. So I attended 1 run but do not meet the historic rego criteria of the club.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Stefan

The clubs are not doing anything other than signing a piece of paper, the registration is managed by rms.

This is not true.

The reason the RMS want the system administered by the clubs, is to control or weed out cars that are not eligible.

This is where the club comes in, they need to make sure that the car is within the rules. Sure it might come with a Pink Slip, but as we all know this is only a safety check & not an ADR check. So if the car in question has had its heater removed, a much larger engine & a late model set of seats fitted, then this could pass a Pink Slip, but is not eligible under VSI 6. All those items require engineering certification. The club registrar, or whoever inspects the vehicles must not only be up to speed on the cars themselves, but more importantly, registration & engineering guidelines. Somebody who handles Blue Slips for example will know exactly what I mean.

Obviously the RMS does not want a repeat of what's happened in Victoria, where we often see full-on drag cars with superchargers out of the bonnet & wheelie bars driving around on historic plates.

This is the reason that many smaller clubs are not interested in going with the new system. They are happy the way it is & don't want the extra responsibility or agro that goes with it.

If you want the RMS to handle it & not the clubs it will be a lot more expensive to register your car.

Dr Terry

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Stefan

But I just don't like being dictated to by a club using rego to do so, some clubs are better than others. The club that I use to use have a really poor runs schedule (it use to be really good), if you don't go on 4 runs you are not eligible for rego. So in the last year there were maybe 4 good runs and 2 were rained out. So I attended 1 run but do not meet the historic rego criteria of the club.

If you think you are "being dictated to by a club using rego to do so" then find another club or at least ask your club to reconsider the rules, now that the new rego scheme is not necessarily meant for club run use.

A lot of this will have to be re-thought in the coming months.

Dr Terry

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

If you think you are "being dictated to by a club using rego to do so" then find another club or at least ask your club to reconsider the rules, now that the new rego scheme is not necessarily meant for club run use.

A lot of this will have to be re-thought in the coming months.

Dr Terry

Not that easy my cars rego lapses I did not do 4 runs so registra does not sign off my rego. I need look for another club but now I need to be a member for 12 months in the new club, which 90% dictate, before I can register my car.

As you stated its not club run based so why is the club signing of on it?

As for your modified drag car argument, how is that a historic rego issue? If someone registers a drag car it gets defected. How is that different than full rego? Plenty of illegally nodded car on full rego.

[FairmontGS]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Not that easy my cars rego lapses I did not do 4 runs so registra does not sign off my rego. I need look for another club but now I need to be a member for 12 months in the new club, which 90% dictate, before I can register my car.

As you stated its not club run based so why is the club signing of on it?

As for your modified drag car argument, how is that a historic rego issue? If someone registers a drag car it gets defected. How is that different than full rego? Plenty of illegally nodded car on full rego.

Ditto. I'm still a member of that club but there's absolutely no chance that I can make 4 runs per year (I haven't made a run for 4 years excepting Bathurst Nationals in 2013). Its not a choice, it's just life. I often find myself taking the car for a run mid-week because that's when I am back home. So I am on full rego and likely to remain so.

Anyway, not bagging out the Clubs, just stating that it's good news for some but not all of us. But good on the RMS for making moves that will help the majority.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Stefan

As for your modified drag car argument, how is that a historic rego issue? If someone registers a drag car it gets defected. How is that different than full rego? Plenty of illegally nodded car on full rego.

Because it is a lot easier to get a bodgy car onto historic rego thru a possibly bodgy club. Once on that rego it is easier to escape the law, because most coppers do not understand the whole historic rego thing & won't defect those cars. Drag car owners are openly flaunting the this rule, you even see them on the various car shows on community TV.

Anybody car owner that 'fiddles' historic makes it worse for the honest guys. Watch insurance rates go thru the roof now that there are over 57,000 cars (including many bodgy ones) on this new scheme.

Dr Terry

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Because it is a lot easier to get a bodgy car onto historic rego thru a possibly bodgy club. Once on that rego it is easier to escape the law, because most coppers do not understand the whole historic rego thing & won't defect those cars. Drag car owners are openly flaunting the this rule, you even see them on the various car shows on community TV.

Anybody car owner that 'fiddles' historic makes it worse for the honest guys. Watch insurance rates go thru the roof now that there are over 57,000 cars (including many bodgy ones) on this new scheme.

Dr Terry

Exactly what I mean people making it sound harder than it is, rego is the same 60 days or full. Just a sticker in the window signifies historic rego. Same pink slip same bluebslip required, so the same hurdle need to adhered to no matter how you rego the car. Why does it need to be easier for historic? Make it the same. Now with number plates on cars are the same rules apply if a cop sees the car with normal plates can defect it.

In any case my opinion matters little sounds like govco are well under way in making it useless already.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Stefan

In any case my opinion matters little sounds like govco are well under way in making it useless already.

I don't understand the problem, what makes it "useless" ?

Dr Terry

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I don't understand the problem, what makes it "useless" ?

Dr Terry

Because it is being administered by clubs, you said a greater onus will be placed on the registra and smaller clubs are already shying away from the headache.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Because it is being administered by clubs, you said a greater onus will be placed on the registra and smaller clubs are already shying away from the headache.

If the clubs don't administer the scheme, it would be more open to abuse & it would be a lot more expensive. Most car clubs that I know of are manned by volunteers.

Dr Terry

[noflac52]

When this proposal was first put up there was a suggestion that joining the CMC was an option for those that didn't want to join clubs for whatever reason. I don't know if it is still on the table but it might be worth a call to the CMC to find out.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Because it is a lot easier to get a bodgy car onto historic rego thru a possibly bodgy club. Once on that rego it is easier to escape the law, because most coppers do not understand the whole historic rego thing & won't defect those cars. Drag car owners are openly flaunting the this rule, you even see them on the various car shows on community TV.

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

If the clubs don't administer the scheme, it would be more open to abuse & it would be a lot more expensive. Most car clubs that I know of are manned by volunteers.

Which one is it Terry?

See how it pans out, I deal with Gov on construction projects daily and it never ceases to amaze me the simplest task can be complicated beyond anything workable by bureaucrats. I have no doubt this will be the same.

[Dr Terry]

The top quote is based on the Vic situation, while bottom quote is referring to the proposed NSW scheme.

The 2 schemes are markedly different !!

Dr Terry

[2011G6E]

Long as it's "days" and not "kilometer limit"...sounds like a great idea!

[5.8]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Long as it's "days" and not "kilometer limit"...sounds like a great idea!

My question to the RMS was what constitutes a "day"? Does taking the car out for an hour run mean you have used it for a day or can several hour runs make up a day. I have rang the RMS but cannot get an answer from them. It seems this trial system will have as many grey areas as the current system.

Our NSW based club is on the historic rego scheme and we don't inspect the cars, each member has to obtain a pink slip each year and the registrar just completes the historic declaration form. This takes the onus off the club for the roadworthiness responsibility.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by 5.8

My question to the RMS was what constitutes a "day"? Does taking the car out for an hour run mean you have used it for a day or can several hour runs make up a day. I have rang the RMS but cannot get an answer from them. It seems this trial system will have as many grey areas as the current system.

I have asked the RMS this same question & got several different responses, the most sensible was this:- "Like any logbook, you fill it out at the beginning of the day & finish it off at the end, even if that meant several journeys, during that day".

So to my way of thinking, you would just fill it out at the beginning of the day & then after you have made those journeys that day, fill the book out accordingly.

The only 'grey areas' with the current system are the way some clubs stretch the rules. The rules simply say "Historic vehicles must be as close to original condition as possible, with no alterations except for safety features such as seat belts and turn indicators or period accessories and options, if desired." Which part of that says you can modify your car in any way you like ?

Originally Posted by 5.8

Our NSW based club is on the historic rego scheme and we don't inspect the cars, each member has to obtain a pink slip each year and the registrar just completes the historic declaration form. This takes the onus off the club for the roadworthiness responsibility.

The cars still need to be inspected by the club on a yearly basis. The onus is on the club to make sure that the car is eligible, before filling out the 1259 form (i.e. it must be deemed historically correct). The pink slip (safety inspection) is a separate requirement.

Dr Terry.

[noflac52]

One problem with the historic scheme in NSW is that no one knows what is eligible and what isn't.

I attended the RMS conferences that were held to discuss the enthusiast car scene a few years ago an example was given of a mid sixties sedan. An eh holden was the example at the time and it was discussed that it would be considered eligible if it had a yella terra head, twin carbs, lowered with wide chrome wheels. All accessories of the era, and the RMS had no issue with this but try to get it on historic plates with a lot of clubs and you will fail to do so.

[5.8]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

I have asked the RMS this same question & got several different responses, the most sensible was this:- "Like any logbook, you fill it out at the beginning of the day & finish it off at the end, even if that meant several journeys, during that day".

So to my way of thinking, you would just fill it out at the beginning of the day & then after you have made those journeys that day, fill the book out accordingly.

The only 'grey areas' with the current system are the way some clubs stretch the rules. The rules simply say "Historic vehicles must be as close to original condition as possible, with no alterations except for safety features such as seat belts and turn indicators or period accessories and options, if desired." Which part of that says you can modify your car in any way you like ?

The cars still need to be inspected by the club on a yearly basis. The onus is on the club to make sure that the car is eligible, before filling out the 1259 form (i.e. it must be deemed historically correct). The pink slip (safety inspection) is a separate requirement.

Dr Terry.

Dr Terry
My question is does using the vehicle for an hour in the day (to go and get a wheel alignment for example) constitute "one days use" out of the 60 days you are allowed? Does any use, regardless of how long that use is, on a calender day mean you have used one of your 60 days up?

Some examples of the grey areas I refer to that the current system has in NSW is if the vehicle is being used for "servicing within a short distance of their place of garaging" the registrar does not need to be notified. What is the definition of a short distance? The RMS cannot give an answer.

The vehicle can be used for maintenance - definition of maintenance? Is it taking it to a mechanic or is it simply taking the vehicle for a drive to keep the fluids moving about in it - again no definitive answer from the RMS

Vehicles have to be as close to original as possible with only options and "period accessories". What length is the period? Can an XY have simmons wheels, they weren't around when XY's were new but would probably be classed as a period accessory by some. Again, no definitive answer can be obtained by the RMS.

Whilst these questions may seem trivial and open to interpretation the bigger concern is when a collision involving serious injuries to people occurs with a historically registered vehicle and the personal injury insurer (QBE I believe it is) disallows a claim due to the above mentioned grey areas. The insurer could state that the vehicle or its use was not in accordance with the historical registration scheme and people are left with medical bills for $100,000's.

I dont think the clubs stretching rules is the problem, its the fact that the RMS fail to provide clear precise rules regarding historic registration and therefore it is left up to each clubs interpretations. The issue this creates is whether claims will be met by the personal injury insurer should the need arise.

[Kingsley]

Any system is open to abuse. Look at the problems with log books in the heavy vehicle industry or the 'L' plater log books. If someone always finds a loop hole...
I just found it more convenient to rego mine on full rego because I drive mine regularly anyway. It is more expensive but I didn't want to join a club, attend club meetings and therefore get involved in club politics just for the pleasure of being able to drive my car when I want.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by 5.8

Dr Terry
My question is does using the vehicle for an hour in the day (to go and get a wheel alignment for example) constitute "one days use" out of the 60 days you are allowed? Does any use, regardless of how long that use is, on a calender day mean you have used one of your 60 days up?

Some examples of the grey areas I refer to that the current system has in NSW is if the vehicle is being used for "servicing within a short distance of their place of garaging" the registrar does not need to be notified. What is the definition of a short distance? The RMS cannot give an answer.

The vehicle can be used for maintenance - definition of maintenance? Is it taking it to a mechanic or is it simply taking the vehicle for a drive to keep the fluids moving about in it - again no definitive answer from the RMS

Vehicles have to be as close to original as possible with only options and "period accessories". What length is the period? Can an XY have simmons wheels, they weren't around when XY's were new but would probably be classed as a period accessory by some. Again, no definitive answer can be obtained by the RMS.

Whilst these questions may seem trivial and open to interpretation the bigger concern is when a collision involving serious injuries to people occurs with a historically registered vehicle and the personal injury insurer (QBE I believe it is) disallows a claim due to the above mentioned grey areas. The insurer could state that the vehicle or its use was not in accordance with the historical registration scheme and people are left with medical bills for $100,000's.

I dont think the clubs stretching rules is the problem, its the fact that the RMS fail to provide clear precise rules regarding historic registration and therefore it is left up to each clubs interpretations. The issue this creates is whether claims will be met by the personal injury insurer should the need arise.

You've raised several valid points, but I think that the logbook one is the easiest to answer.

One day is one day, regardless of whether you've travelled 10 km or 500 km. If you use the car for one whole day or any part of it, you've used up one of your 60 days.

The short servicing/maintenance distance thing has changed over the years. To my knowledge, way back in time the distance was specified as 5 miles, which became 8 km in the 70s. Now that's fine for guys who live in suburbia, your local servo is usually within that distance, so there would be no genuine reason travelling further than that. But what about guys in the bush, their local servo could be over 50 km (or more) from home, so the 8 km limit was abolished & the term "reasonable distance from where it's garaged" was used instead. Let's face it if you need to take your car to a mechanic or a panelbeater that's more than a "reasonable distance" from home, just contact your club registrar, it's not that hard !

If you live in say, Castle Hill & a copper pulls you over in Cronulla, I think you would have a difficult time convincing the copper that you were a "reasonable distance" from home, just doing a maintenance run.

The "period options & accessories" thing is probably the biggest 'Grey' area. But again, I don't think that it's all that hard in reality. In my opinion, 'period' means when the car was relatively new, say 4-6 years. In other words the average time span of a new car buyer's ownership. The whole "period" thing is that the car concerned is supposed to represent what they looked like when the car was near new.

I think you are expecting too much from the RMS to rule on whether Simmons wheels are 'period correct' for an XY. This is where the clubs come in, they would have more expertise in this area than any public servant. Also one area often forgotten, especially when it comes to wheels, is the legality of the wheel itself. The RMS, (previously the RTA & the DMT before that) has always had rules for maximum wheel width or track width. Many wheels fitted to cars over time, were illegal the day they were fitted new. For example 8-inch aftermarket alloys (or even wider) were a common fitment on cars in the mid to late 70s, so you could logically argue that they could be 'period correct' for say an XB GT or A9X Torana. The problem is, they were illegal then, but most turned a 'blind eye' to them. But if they were illegal back then, then they are still illegal today, so they shouldn't be allowed for H-plate rego.

The new 'modified' scheme to be introduced next year, will allow you to get them engineered (which wouldn't be that hard) & you would be fully legal, without causing grief for the H-plate system or possible insurance claims.

I believe that currently, there are many clubs which ARE stretching the rules. In my travels around various car shows, it's commonplace to see cars from the 50s & 60s with late model engines, 'billet' type accessories & large diameter alloys, which are clearly NOT 'period correct' in anybody's language. The new system for modifieds, will clean that up hopefully.

Dr Terry

[noflac52]

I think you might find that 8 inch rims were legal on 70's falcons back in the day because the regulation allowed rims 1 inch wider than the largest manufacturers optional wheel. 7 inch rims were optional on xy's/xa's. Using a 50/50 offset the track would not be increased either.

[snowcone]

I am concerned that my 58 Customline will not be eligible because it has Jellybean Mags on it.
These are old school but certainly weren't around in the 50's and 60's
I don't fancy sourcing and using a set of 60 year old skinny steel wheels and then heading off down the M1 at 110 km/h so what is legal/better/safer - dangerous old rusty rims or better engineered alloy wheels