![]() |
|
Welcome to the Australian Ford Forums forum. You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and inserts advertising. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features without post based advertising banners. Registration is simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today! If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. Please Note: All new registrations go through a manual approval queue to keep spammers out. This is checked twice each day so there will be a delay before your registration is activated. |
|
The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
![]() |
#1 | ||
Moderator
![]() Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 7,940
|
|
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
5 users like this post: |
![]() |
#2 | ||
Render unto Caesar
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ::1
Posts: 4,221
|
It's a good win.
__________________
"Aliens might be surprised to learn that in a cosmos with limitless starlight, humans kill for energy sources buried in sand." - Neil deGrasse Tyson |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#3 | |||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,308
|
Quote:
It'll come back as a federal tax no doubt. Labor won't introduce it after the Referendum but the next Libs majority will and Labor will never roll it back.
__________________
My Ford Family... 2014 GT-F, Manual, Kinetic with Black Stripes 2021 Mustang Mach 1, Manual, Velocity Blue |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#4 | ||
Render unto Caesar
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ::1
Posts: 4,221
|
Shouldn't have been there in the first place. The hybrid/PHEV users were badly burnt by this BS tax as well. Even if they never charged their PHEV, they were paying 2 taxes.
__________________
"Aliens might be surprised to learn that in a cosmos with limitless starlight, humans kill for energy sources buried in sand." - Neil deGrasse Tyson |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#5 | |||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,308
|
Quote:
I recently bought a hybrid to test out the fuel consumption and see if they really were cheaper to run than an EV. Bought a RX450h which is similar in size to the Y. They use a lot of fuel in the real world and sit at 7-8 litre/100. That's about $14-16 per hundred so plenty of excise and GST in that as well. They're paying enough in fuel excise.
__________________
My Ford Family... 2014 GT-F, Manual, Kinetic with Black Stripes 2021 Mustang Mach 1, Manual, Velocity Blue |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#6 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canberra
Posts: 13,374
|
While its a good result you know the house will get its cut one way or another. Honestly though how they thought they could replace a federal tax with a state based one is unbelievable
![]() |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#7 | ||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,308
|
I think NSW saw the writing on the wall with this challenge and have brought forward the end date for their subsidies now that they know they can't make it back by taxing EVs.
__________________
My Ford Family... 2014 GT-F, Manual, Kinetic with Black Stripes 2021 Mustang Mach 1, Manual, Velocity Blue |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#8 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 456
|
There is nothing stopping them from uping the registration, or removing the registration completely and replacing it with a price per klm with EV's being a higher rate. The government will always win out in the end.
__________________
Never argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and beat with experience every time. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#9 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 997
|
As much as I support EV, I think it was a bad loss for ICE owners and for road users in general.
EV users should be very careful what they wish for. Let me explain ... First, the High Court has judged that the Victorian Government did not have the constitutional powers to generate this particular tax. Fair enough, that is the constitution. However, general ICE users (i.e. petrol and diesel) are taxed to the tune of around $13.5B per year in fuel exercise, or about 42.5 cents per litre. Around $7B of that is returned in the form of "land transport" initiatives. A vague term that appears to also include syphoning off money for rail, bus, bikeways, and walking paths. The actual dollars from the fuel exercise that end up improving roadways is about 29% of that collected (around $4B). The rest of the fuel tax disappears into consolidated revenue. On top of this, ICE users get slugged again with a 10% GST on top of fuel. All of which is handed over to the State Governments and disappears into their consolidated revenue. The actual GST collected is a little hard to find in the budget papers, but it appears to be around another $6B. Assume a ICE vehicle doing 15,000km/year. Assume average fuel consumption of around 10l/100km. Assume average fuel consumption is around 1500l per year. Assume average fuel price around $2/l, giving an average fuel bill of around $3000 per year. From the Federal Budget explainer FY2022, the fuel exercise is around 42.5cpl. Which means the average ICE user is paying around $1270 in fuel exercise tax per annum, plus around $272 in GST, giving a total around $1542. So, all up, ICE users are forking out around $20B into government coffers, getting back around $4B in road improvements, and waving goodbye to the rest as it disappears into consolidated revenue. Turning to an EV user who is doing around 15,000 km/year. Assuming an average of 200Whr/km, they will go through around 3MWh a year in electricity. Assuming they purchase all of their electricity from the grid at $0.3/kWh they will have a "fuel" bill around $900. Assuming 10% GST, their contribution to taxes is around $90/year. If the EV owner has the capital, they would have received a grant from the government for any solar PV system they installed. Effectively paying zero fuel tax if they can recharge only during daylight hours. And now we get to the nub of the problem. For each ICE vehicle that is removed from the road (in favour of an EV), the government is loosing around $1500 in revenue per year. Consider what will happen if I get out my magic wand and turn every ICE into an EV overnight. The Commonwealth and State governments loose around $20B in revenue overnight. There is also a societal impact to this. Low social-economic users of ICE vehicles - some of who are struggling to put even food on the table - are disproportionately cross-subsidizing EV users. This can only lead to social unrest in the longer term. While I love EV, my view is that they are also a very noisy minority of road users who have been guilt tripping society into giving them all types of financial exemptions. They need to start paying their way, like the rest of road us users. Last edited by whynot; 18-10-2023 at 03:25 PM. Reason: fixed typo |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
14 users like this post: | BENT_8, Blue_XR, danzvtil, davids_gxl, GT450, GXA, Interceptor, Jack91, MrMaestro, Paull, prydey, roKWiz, T3rminator, xtremerus |
![]() |
#10 | ||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,308
|
I didn't get any incentives and paid about $30k in tax when I bought my Model S. I'm not for incentives and most are targeted for the cheapest EVs.
The two speed economy will be interesting as haves vs have nots increases. Govt will be happy to lose that money for fuel security though. If most of the population is EV and we end up with a War (or effects of war) and fuel becomes an issue, at least with EVs will keep the economy going forward and transportation doesn't halt. I don't mind paying a road tax. I save more than enough on fuel anyway and yes, bar July and August where we don't make enough solar, I don't use the grid at all to charge the cars.
__________________
My Ford Family... 2014 GT-F, Manual, Kinetic with Black Stripes 2021 Mustang Mach 1, Manual, Velocity Blue |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#11 | ||
Render unto Caesar
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ::1
Posts: 4,221
|
I think the whole folly of "EV users not paying their way" is just that, a folly and a whinge.
EV drivers paid tax on their car (GST, LCT & stamp duty), not forgetting ongoing registrations as well. EV users are tax payers who pay an income tax. They also pay a GST on their electricity bill. Don't forget not everyone pays the same amount of excise. I have a car that runs about 6l/100km, I technically drive on the road more than our friend with his 5.0l V8 but he pays more "tax." I don't agree on subsidising the purchase of any EV cars or anything like that. Are we going to get to a point in time where it becomes a user pay system? Cause I sure as hell don't want that. Imagine the health system turning into pay as you go instead of it being funded for everyone? This is an opportunity for the federal and state governments to review road funding as a whole, the excise goes into general revenue at the federal level. So it never funded state roads. If collecting tax is your concern, then I am sure you'd be keen to object to the stage 3 tax cuts, reviewing the tax breaks on "work vehicles" and other loopholes that leak billions in possible tax revenue.
__________________
"Aliens might be surprised to learn that in a cosmos with limitless starlight, humans kill for energy sources buried in sand." - Neil deGrasse Tyson Last edited by Wretched; 18-10-2023 at 04:37 PM. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#12 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 997
|
Whoops ... just read this section again, and clearly I cannot do my maths. Fuel exercise is $637 plus $272 in GST, totalling around $909 pear year in this example.
|
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#13 | ||||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 997
|
Quote:
Quote:
Depends. A person who can charge there EV via their solar PV system pays no "fuel tax". None, whatsoever. The Federal Government's STC rebate is presently $396 per kW installed. Assuming a 10kWh system (which is the typical average at present), is a cash back to the home owner of nearly $4000. Quote:
Quote:
It may come to that. |
||||||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#14 | ||||||
Render unto Caesar
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ::1
Posts: 4,221
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Again, you assume that the feds pass on the funds to the states to manage their roads directly from the excise. Quote:
No, EV users are not getting a free ride, they pay rego which is "supposedly" paying for the actual suburban roads.
__________________
"Aliens might be surprised to learn that in a cosmos with limitless starlight, humans kill for energy sources buried in sand." - Neil deGrasse Tyson |
||||||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#15 | ||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 997
|
Quote:
The alternative tax model is a congestion tax (e.g. London) and toll roads. Quote:
So, just to be really clear ... I love EV. I think they are great technology. I had a Mitsubishi Outland PHEV back in 2014 and I could do the round trip from home to work and back to home on the battery. To me the most attractive attributes of having an EV is NOT the reduction in fossil fuel use. To me, it was the lower noise, lower vibrations, and smooth acceleration that makes an EV so nice to drive. However, it is a cold hard fact that the Federal and State Governments are collecting around $20B more in taxes from ICE than they ever will from EV under the present tax arrangements. If we instantly have EV everywhere, then the Federal and State Governments have a $20B hole in their budget. A $4B hole earmarked for roads and a $16B hole for consolidated revenue. This is even before we get to the revenue generated by car rego. One can argue all they like about EV paying their tax, but the data is very clear in government position papers. The Commonwealth Parliamentary Budget Office priced a 2019 proposal to mandate EV by 2030 as having an impact on the fiscal position by a negative $4.7B in 2030 (and that is still with a large fleet of ICE still in the system). There are a number of forward looking budget papers on the impact of EV on Commonwealth and State Government budgets. And, as American statesman Benjamin Franklin has said, but in this world nothing can be said to be certain, except death and taxes. |
||||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#16 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,046
|
Quote:
This decision is a bit of a double whammy to passenger vehicle ICE drivers TBH, who continue to prop up the road network while everyone gets a discount or a freebie. |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#17 | ||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,692
|
Quote:
Quote:
The sooner another tax is introduced the better
__________________
I reserve the right to arm bears
|
||||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#18 | |||
Render unto Caesar
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: ::1
Posts: 4,221
|
Quote:
![]()
__________________
"Aliens might be surprised to learn that in a cosmos with limitless starlight, humans kill for energy sources buried in sand." - Neil deGrasse Tyson |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#19 | |||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,308
|
Quote:
__________________
My Ford Family... 2014 GT-F, Manual, Kinetic with Black Stripes 2021 Mustang Mach 1, Manual, Velocity Blue |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#20 | |||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,308
|
Quote:
The sooner Tax breaks are removed for Dual cab utes and the introduction of LCT on them the better.
__________________
My Ford Family... 2014 GT-F, Manual, Kinetic with Black Stripes 2021 Mustang Mach 1, Manual, Velocity Blue Last edited by kypez; 19-10-2023 at 12:17 PM. |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
3 users like this post: |
![]() |
#21 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,029
|
Quote:
Rego on my Fiesta ST is $742 Car is ridiculously expensive in comparison to the truck |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#22 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,692
|
I live in regional Victoria, I pay more rego for my petrol 1997 Fairmont Ghia than I do for my 2016 diesel Ford Ranger
__________________
I reserve the right to arm bears
|
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#23 | |||
Experienced Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Australasia
Posts: 7,540
|
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#24 | |||
Thailand Specials
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Centrefold Lounge
Posts: 49,029
|
Quote:
You can see all the incentives here stacking up for the LCVs - cheaper rego, tax advantages, no LCT. The only thing is you get stiffed on tolls with LCV vs passenger car. |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#25 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 6,891
|
There, fixed it
![]()
__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rides (past and present) Current: 2004 Ford Falcon 5.4L 3v Barra 220, Manual Past: Mitsubishi Sigma (m), Toyota Seca (m), Toyota Seca SX (m), Toyota Vienta V6 (m), Toyota Soarer 4L v8 (a), BA XR8 ute (m), T3 TE50 (m), BMW Z4 (m) AFF motto - If contrary views trigger, please use ignore button. ![]() |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
5 users like this post: |
![]() |
#26 | |||
Cabover nut
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Onsite Eastcoast
Posts: 10,827
|
Quote:
Trevors, rego's doesn't really make sense though based on both being the same seating capacity. NB. I would imagine half the EV owners took advantage of Government incentives with their solar array installs.
__________________
heritagestonemason.com/Fordlouisvillerestoration In order that the labour of centuries past may not be in vain during the centuries to come...... D. Diderot 1752
|
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#27 | |||
Experienced Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Australasia
Posts: 7,540
|
Quote:
Weird State of Victoria when it comes to fees. |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
This user likes this post: |
![]() |
#28 | ||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,308
|
Not really just them. It was a precursor to what they wanted to do to ICE cars as well. It's a win for both.
__________________
My Ford Family... 2014 GT-F, Manual, Kinetic with Black Stripes 2021 Mustang Mach 1, Manual, Velocity Blue |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#29 | |||
Cabover nut
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Onsite Eastcoast
Posts: 10,827
|
Quote:
When I first had the van transferred to Vic from NSW, the sods charged me a station wagon rate for 2 years until I spotted SW on the rego and questioned it. They then lowered it to van/ute rate. Telling me the cost is basically calculated on the number of seats through TAC insurance. The single drive prime mover isn't much dearer than the van.
__________________
heritagestonemason.com/Fordlouisvillerestoration In order that the labour of centuries past may not be in vain during the centuries to come...... D. Diderot 1752
|
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#30 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 7,692
|
__________________
I reserve the right to arm bears
|
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |