2008 mondeo tdci - no start

thebluerx7 · 24-02-2016, 08:53 AM

hi,

just picked up a 2008 MA diesel mondeo sedan from the auctions with panel damage but the bastard wont start. bought elm327 and setup forscan,no codes at all except blown brake light globes.

has 24000kpa fuel pressure at crank,has 40-50% control valve duty cycle,doesnt seem to have bad fuel in tank,no anti theft codes at all,no key recognition issues,just cranks at full speed and doesnt start.engine bay and underbody are immaculate,no blown fuses or missing fuses either.

-does anyone know a reliable place to download a manual for this?
-also,what voltage should the injectors be running at? i quickly disconnected an injector this morning and noticed just in free-air that connector with the ign on has 1.3V and 0.00V,obviously one is the trigger wire but surely it should have atleast 5V on the power supply or even 12V??????
- also i notice both on the cars self test mode in the dash and on forscan i get 0rpm when cranking, a mates mc mondeo gets 200-300rpm on the display straight away. surely if its got no rpm signal it should have codes though???

oh the joys of auctions cars,im a sucker for punishment hahha

rondeo · 24-02-2016, 09:20 PM

Timing belt?

thebluerx7 · 24-02-2016, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

Timing belt?

I deleted and reinstalled forscan and my rpm on crank is ok now.if it has fuel pressure the pump on the cam
Must be spinning , whether it's timed
Correctly is the question.

I will have to remove the top cover Saturday and check the timing belt. Tried to scope the injectors upto 20v but no waveform on the wires at all.

rondeo · 24-02-2016, 11:15 PM

Maybe check for water in the fuel. Filter has a drain screw?
Air intake clear? See Ford wiki online for manual.

rondeo · 25-02-2016, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluerx7

hi,

just picked up a 2008 MA diesel mondeo sedan from the auctions with panel damage but the bastard wont start. bought elm327 and setup forscan,no codes at all except blown brake light globes.

has 24000kpa fuel pressure at crank,has 40-50% control valve duty cycle,doesnt seem to have bad fuel in tank,no anti theft codes at all,no key recognition issues,just cranks at full speed and doesnt start.engine bay and underbody are immaculate,no blown fuses or missing fuses either.

-does anyone know a reliable place to download a manual for this?
-also,what voltage should the injectors be running at? i quickly disconnected an injector this morning and noticed just in free-air that connector with the ign on has 1.3V and 0.00V,obviously one is the trigger wire but surely it should have atleast 5V on the power supply or even 12V??????
- also i notice both on the cars self test mode in the dash and on forscan i get 0rpm when cranking, a mates mc mondeo gets 200-300rpm on the display straight away. surely if its got no rpm signal it should have codes though???

oh the joys of auctions cars,im a sucker for punishment hahha

According to Dr Google Piezo injectors are pulsed at around 200V for millisecond order times. Can cause shock and damage.
There is no voltage except when pulsed.

If the timing was out PCM would report no sync between crank and cam sensors?

cobrin · 25-02-2016, 10:22 PM

disconnect the electrical connection on the back of the hi.press fuel pump (I think it's brown) and crank for 5 seconds, fuel pressure should go high and minimum spec is 1050bar. If everything is good it's not your pump.

thebluerx7 · 25-02-2016, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobrin

disconnect the electrical connection on the back of the hi.press fuel pump (I think it's brown) and crank for 5 seconds, fuel pressure should go high and minimum spec is 1050bar. If everything is good it's not your pump.

Well sprayed rp7 down the intake and still didn't start so I thought **** it, it has to be out of time or stripped belt.

Pulled top cover back and found about 4 inches of belt with no teeth.

Has anyone had one of these survive tbelt breakage, they say interference but is that confirmed at all?

Think I will fit a new tbelt and fire her up, can't ruin it any more I figure

rondeo · 26-02-2016, 11:50 AM

Compression test?

Deo · 26-02-2016, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluerx7

found about 4 inches of belt with no teeth.

Just to build the knowledge base here - how many km's would this belt have done?

Sent from my GTi-9305 using bloody Tapatalk

thebluerx7 · 26-02-2016, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deo

Just to build the knowledge base here - how many km's would this belt have done?

Sent from my GTi-9305 using bloody Tapatalk

245kms

rondeo · 26-02-2016, 01:35 PM

200,000km is the number given in the owner service manual, regarding timing belt repolacement. My visit to a Ford dealer as a normal person ( I hope I am not) suggested 195,000 km, which I found interesting. Who knows? Personally, I'm doing it at 2000000km, since mostly open road. Question is, how did my 5000000 + km EF Falcon survive? Answer:I renewed the head gasket. Problem: bad fuel economy.

thebluerx7 · 26-02-2016, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

200,000km is the number given in the owner service manual, regarding timing belt repolacement. My visit to a Ford dealer as a normal person ( I hope I am not) suggested 195,000 km, which I found interesting. Who knows? Personally, I'm doing it at 2000000km, since mostly open road. Question is, how did my 5000000 + km EF Falcon survive? Answer:I renewed the head gasket. Problem: bad fuel economy.

The service book says 240k or 10 years.

We have mits do The same thing here and strip belts very soon over the km specified. Especially mn triton etc

I may do a Comp test but it looks like a massive mission to access the glow
Plugs so may not bother , if it's quiet, drive it, if it's noisy I will just chuck the engine in the bin.

thebluerx7 · 08-03-2016, 09:15 PM

Got another engine coming, Google won't tell me if the injector pump has to be swapped over or coded or anything?

I will swap the injectors over but just not sure if I can get away with the injection pump not being swapped over?

Top_Ghia · 08-03-2016, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluerx7

Got another engine coming, Google won't tell me if the injector pump has to be swapped over or coded or anything?

I will swap the injectors over but just not sure if I can get away with the injection pump not being swapped over?

Won't the new engine come with injectors and pump? Just use those.
You may need to have the injectors calibrated to your pcm.

thebluerx7 · 09-03-2016, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top_Ghia

Won't the new engine come with injectors and pump? Just use those.
You may need to have the injectors calibrated to your pcm.

That's what
I'm asking, does the pump have to be coded aswell.

The car is written off and I can't get it cleared or drive it until it runs so I can do the panel work, so at the moment having to code injectors is a real
Pain. That's why I would rather swap the injectors over so it runs straight up.

What I want to know is if the injector pump has to be swapped aswell?
Is there any software I can get to do it? I have forscan but it won't do it

rondeo · 09-03-2016, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluerx7

does the pump have to be coded as well.

No. Not listed in installation procedure in the Ford factory manual.

Suggest:

Prime the pump through the return line before cranking or pump might be damaged.

thebluerx7 · 09-03-2016, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

No. Not listed in installation procedure in the Ford factory manual.

Suggest:

Prime the pump through the return line before cranking or pump might be damaged.

Thanks.

It looks as though forscan can do injector codes possibly, is it possible to code the new set already in the new engine without reading any of the old info?

Would prefer to use all the new stuff as its all only 110000kms on this stuff instead of 250000km.

It should start even without coding the injectors I would have thought anyway?

rondeo · 09-03-2016, 10:01 AM

In Forscan there is a 'reset all adaptations' service function?
Suggest do that first. Not done it myself though.

rondeo · 10-03-2016, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

In Forscan there is a 'reset all adaptations' service function?
Suggest do that first. Not done it myself though.

Just had a look at FORScan connected to my car, appears to be no 'reset all adaptations'

There's a list of individual items to reset.

PCM:

Module reset (is this a reset all?)
Pilot injection quantity learned values
Minimum drive pulse learned values
Read fuel injector correction factors
Change fuel injector correction factors (not sure what these are exactly)
Reset DPF learned values
Reset differential pressure sensor learned values
Reset EGR valve adaptations
Reset air intake throttle valve learned values
Reset exhaust gas temperature learned value
Reset water in fuel warning indicator (didn't know there was one)

Then there's a reset available for modules:

ABS, RCM, BCMii, IPC

and an ABS service bleed function (I'm not game to try it)

thebluerx7 · 10-03-2016, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

Just had a look at FORScan connected to my car, appears to be no 'reset all adaptations'

There's a list of individual items to reset.

PCM:

Module reset (is this a reset all?)
Pilot injection quantity learned values
Minimum drive pulse learned values
Read fuel injector correction factors
Change fuel injector correction factors (not sure what these are exactly)
Reset DPF learned values
Reset differential pressure sensor learned values
Reset EGR valve adaptations
Reset air intake throttle valve learned values
Reset exhaust gas temperature learned value
Reset water in fuel warning indicator (didn't know there was one)

Then there's a reset available for modules:

ABS, RCM, BCMii, IPC

and an ABS service bleed function (I'm not game to try it)

It's the correction factors one that gets used for mk4 for the new set of injectors

Adaptions are just he learned corrections and fuel trims etc, pump trims, timing trims

rondeo · 10-03-2016, 02:21 PM

Thanks. The correction factors are the numbers printed on the injectors I take it?

Hope you keep us posted of your progress.

thebluerx7 · 14-03-2016, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

Thanks. The correction factors are the numbers printed on the injectors I take it?

Hope you keep us posted of your progress.

Update - total ******* fail again

New motor in, coded injectors to the new batch code 6 instead of 5( on top of injector), cranked it and doesn't fire at all.

Put brake bleeder on the return line and pulled fuel through whole line inc pump and still no start, cracked fuel pipes and def fuel there, still no start.
Checked codes and data and has 54000kpa pressure , 35% scv duty, rpm reads, def has tbelt teeth on this one and doesn't ******* start.

Raging so ******* hard it's not even funny any more ......

cobrin · 15-03-2016, 02:39 AM

you've encoded the injectors to the firing order and not cylinder position?

thebluerx7 · 15-03-2016, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobrin

you've encoded the injectors to the firing order and not cylinder position?

No need , they are batch.

So just had to change from batch 5 to batch 6.

cobrin · 15-03-2016, 10:37 AM

ok thanks I wasn't sure, checked injector voltage and somehow pulse?

you have rpm so the crank pos. sensor is working, can you check the cam sensor is working, now thinking about it Timing is correct yeah?

I know these are random I'm guessing beyond what you've already done

thebluerx7 · 15-03-2016, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cobrin

ok thanks I wasn't sure, checked injector voltage and somehow pulse?

you have rpm so the crank pos. sensor is working, can you check the cam sensor is working, now thinking about it Timing is correct yeah?

I know these are random I'm guessing beyond what you've already done

I will have to look into if I can scope the peizzo injectors .

All In all it should run right now and it doesn't .

rondeo · 15-03-2016, 11:58 AM

(Caution: Injectors pulsed at around 200v
for millisecond periods. No voltage when idle. as previousy posted)

Cranks but no start:

Low fuel tank fuel level.

Fuel filter element blocked.

Fuel lines damaged or blocked.

Air ingress into the fuel lines.

Glow plugs.

Incorrect valve timing.

Low cylinder compression.

Crankshaft position (CKP) sensor.

Camshaft position (CMP) sensor.

Engine coolant temperature (ECT) sensor.

PCM.

FRP sensor.

Fuel pump fuel pressure regulator.

Fuel pump.

Fuel injector(s).

The CMP sensor uses the Hall effect principle and is supplied with a reference voltage of 5 V.

During starting, the CKP sensor and the CMP sensor are synchronized. If both signals are present, the engine can be started.

If the signal from the CMP sensor fails while the engine is running, the engine continues to run using the signals from the CKP sensor.

If the CMP signal is missing at the next starting operation, it will not be possible to start the engine.

Inlet air shut-off throttle stuck closed? Just guessing there.

thebluerx7 · 15-03-2016, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rondeo

(Caution: Injectors pulsed at around 200v
for millisecond periods. No voltage when idle. as previousy posted)

Cranks but no start:

Low fuel tank fuel level.

Fuel filter element blocked.

Fuel lines damaged or blocked.

Air ingress into the fuel lines.

Glow plugs.

Incorrect valve timing.

Low cylinder compression.

Crankshaft position (CKP) sensor.

Camshaft position (CMP) sensor.

Engine coolant temperature (ECT) sensor.

PCM.

FRP sensor.

Fuel pump fuel pressure regulator.

Fuel pump.

Fuel injector(s).

The CMP sensor uses the Hall effect principle and is supplied with a reference voltage of 5 V.

During starting, the CKP sensor and the CMP sensor are synchronized. If both signals are present, the engine can be started.

If the signal from the CMP sensor fails while the engine is running, the engine continues to run using the signals from the CKP sensor.

If the CMP signal is missing at the next starting operation, it will not be possible to start the engine.

It's going to cop bulk aerostart .

Wrecker said should def run but has been sitting wrapped indoors for 2 years.

thebluerx7 · 16-03-2016, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluerx7

It's going to cop bulk aerostart .

Wrecker said should def run but has been sitting wrapped indoors for 2 years.

Cranked it on aerostart until it nearly hydrauliced. Not a single fire out of it.

rondeo · 16-03-2016, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebluerx7

Cranked it on aerostart until it nearly hydrauliced. Not a single fire out of it.

?Too much aerostart?

No bang unless the ratio is right.

?Cranking speed needs to be at least 150 rpm?

?The best way to verify compression is a compression test?