Buying second hand MC Mondeo titanium

[Josh_mac3]

Looking at a used 2011 TDCi mc Mondeo titanium. The car has done 75,000k's and seems in fairly good condition. The only thing really bothering me is the reports of problems with the transmission. I'm not very mechanically savvy so just after some tips to look for before purchasing.

Does anyone know if the transmission problems are a common fault? I have read they are expensive to fix so I do not want to encounter this in the future.

Thanks

[NZ XR6]

The Powershift boxes need a fluid change every 60,000 km, so it would pay to check that this has been done. The Ford fluid is very expensive and costs about $300, but there are now alternative sources such as Penrite that are much cheaper.

Others here can tell you more about the problems, but the Powershift can go wrong and can be very expensive to repair.

I would certainly want a mechanical warranty if I was buying a MC, but the Titanium is a very nice car.

[Josh_mac3]

Thanks for the quick reply.

The problems with the powershift are my main concern. As the car is being sold from holden dealership I'm reluctant to take out their extended warranty as I would have to take the car there to be serviced. I also have my own preferred mechanic but I can't afford to fork out a replacement gearbox.

Everything else about the titanium I like, however this may steer me away from purchasing it

[whitelion65]

Do a search Josh. Lots on here with PS Mondeos, and no problems.
Mine is a similar vintage to what you are looking at; 78,000km, MC Titanium wagon.
A great car!
Good luck.

[Giant Cranium]

Power shift is fine in a diesel. It is a wet clutch transmission. The petrols are the problem. My old man is at 100000 on his mc titanium diesel and not one issue with the car

[Mondaveo]

(Apologies in advance for the novel...)

It's the dry-clutch Powershift used in previous-gen Fiesta and petrol Focus that are known to have issues. A seal fails, allowing oil to leak onto the clutch plates and causing slipping and shuddering in between gear changes.

The unit used in Mondeo is a high-torque variant with clutches operating in a bath of fluid, hence 'wet' clutch. It seems to be more robust and not prone to the kinds of problems that afflicted the early dry-clutch examples, so long as the transmission fluid is not contaminated (do your services on time). I'm not aware of any reports of widespread failure in these cars like are known for the smaller cars with the dry clutch.

It's important to understand that all Powershift DCTs are essentially a manual (clutch and gears) transmission, that happens to be shifted automatically. As such, it feels different to a conventional automatic transmission; at low speeds (particularly walking pace), Powershift won't be as smooth as a conventional auto. Where it comes into its own is once you're moving at speed, delivering quick gear changes and better efficiency.

In Mondeos the one failure that does seem to happen, from recent experience with a couple of cases on this forum, is the electronic sensors go bad. When this happens, the computer can't make correct shifting decisions and may shift roughly, hesitate between gears, or not shift at all. Unfortunately, like many failures of electronic components, the onset and symptoms can be intermittent and hard to diagnose. Doubly unfortunately, the unit has not been designed for easy access and replacement of components, so repairs for one misbehaving sensor get bloody expensive.

It's hard to advise what you can look for, as even a car with a preexisting problem may be good on the day you test drive it, but I'll offer the following:

• From standing starts and at walking pace, the pick-up should be reasonably smooth - remember it won't be as buttery as a conventional auto, but should be at least as smooth as you could manage with the clutch in a manual. Shuddering or bad vibration could indicate fluid contamination or damage to the clutch pack. Be aware that there's a significant lag before the power comes in on the turbo-diesel.
• Once you're up to speed, gear shifts should be quick and seamless. Vary your speed, or use the manual sports mode to get it to change up and down. Be suspicious if changes are jerky or harsh, or it seems to drop into neutral in between gears.
• The transmission should shift in a decisive manner, but evaluate any hesitation in the context of how you were driving. The DCT works by 'guessing' what gear you're likely to need next and it can get wrong-footed.

In addition to making sure the Powershift services have been carried out on time, as others have said.

End of the day, as stated it's only a couple of experiences that have ended in expensive repairs; I'm confident the vast majority of Mondeo Powershifts will have no problem (though less confident my own car is among them!).

[rondeo]

That was quite a good novel I thought, well worth the read and quite realistic.
The only (and minor) criticism is the 'I'm confident' bit. Being a pessimist I'm more inclined to look at statistics, which are technically unavailable. Still, my two have done about 135,000km and are running beautifully. Dare I say, I love 'em?

[Josh_mac3]

Thanks all for your help. I appreciate the novel; very helpful and detailed.

It's good to know that the diesel wet clutches are far more reliable. I guess after looking around for 'faults', every fault possible is what you're going to find.

I have taken it for one test drive but I wasn't aware of what to look for, I was more intrigued by all the gadgets, however I didn't notice anything I thought to be out of the ordinary; I thought it drove very nice. Next test drive will be a lot more in depth. I also will have to check the service history for the 60k trans fluid change has been done.

The holden dealership offer a 5 year extended warranty. I'm sure there lots of t&c's involved however do you think it's worth taking it out for the piece of mind? I don't know how I feel about taking a Ford to a holden service centre and I don't think my independent mechanic would approve, but it could probe worth it in the long run.

[Fehlbie]

I have a diesel titanium which is about to click over 200,000kms, power shift gearbox is still working beautifully.

[juzandbec]

I purchased the 'same' car with 100k kms on it last May. I too was concerned about the powershift as it seems to come up on a search as the primary fault in an otherwise perfect car. In my research I read that a symptom of a failing powershift is surging or fluctuating rpm whilst maintaining a steady throttle up an incline - there is a YouTube video of what the tachometer does in this case. Sure enough, the first Mondeo I test drove ( from a Holden dealership incidentally ) did exactly that. Whilst driving up a hill on the return trip I watched the tachometer and it fluctuated up and down about 500rpm despite me holding the throttle steady and no change in incline.
The 2nd Mondeo I test drove held the rpm's perfectly steady - so I bought the car, with a 6 year warranty as whilst the model has a great reputation, there are a lot of gadgets on a Titanium that would hurt the hip pocket if they failed. I've already used the warranty as the left rear curtain airbag failed and was apparently $600 just for the part, so my warranty has already paid for itself.
Definitely something to consider even if you need to take it back to them as they are responsible.

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by Josh_mac3

Thanks all for your help. I appreciate the novel; very helpful and detailed.

(...)

The holden dealership offer a 5 year extended warranty. I'm sure there lots of t&c's involved however do you think it's worth taking it out for the piece of mind? I don't know how I feel about taking a Ford to a holden service centre and I don't think my independent mechanic would approve, but it could probe worth it in the long run.

You're welcome; I'm (we're all?) learning as we go, so it's nice to put something back in and hear it's helpful to others.

I think the extended warranty from the Holden dealer sounds like an excellent path to peace of mind, assuming the cost and T's & C's aren't too draconian. If you have to use them for servicing, I would check them to make sure they use the right spec of oil (especially if the car in question is a diesel) and the right fluid for the Powershift - in saying that, I would do the same even taking my car to a Ford dealer. To read these forums, evidently not even all Ford dealers know or care how to service Ford product properly. You can find lots of info about the right spec fluids in threads here by rondeo.

Originally Posted by rondeo

That was quite a good novel I thought, well worth the read and quite realistic.
The only (and minor) criticism is the 'I'm confident' bit. Being a pessimist I'm more inclined to look at statistics, which are technically unavailable. Still, my two have done about 135,000km and are running beautifully. Dare I say, I love 'em?

Thanks and I agree, I would love to see statistics to quantify this stuff. When I say I'm confident, it's based on my impression from searching the wider internet. Everyone talks about the Powershift faults in Fiesta and Focus, but you don't see a lot of discussion for Mondeo (although AFF is climbing the Google results for those search terms!). They sell heaps of these cars in Europe, so I feel that if there were something afoot we'd hear more about it.

Funny to hear you say you're a pessimist when you're the originator of the recent happy thoughts Powershift thread
But that gives us an opportunity to do a quick survey. Bearing in mind this is not a representative sample, and most people won't come looking to say anything unless they have a problem, we have...

• rondeo - MC LX TDCi, 135,000km - no problems
• rondeo - MC Zetec TDCi 135,000km - no problems
• whitelion65 - 2012 MC Titanium TDCi, 75,000km - no problems
• Giant Cranium('s dad) - MC TDCi, 100,000km - no issues throughout
• Canyonero - MC Zetec Ecoboost, 50,000km - no problems
• Binny - 2011 MC TDCi, 95,000km - "a couple of stumbles like it had to have a second go at changing gears. Otherwise no dramas for the 40,000k I've had it."
• borntoshop666 - MB TDCi, 238,000km - no Powershift issues
• DFB FGXR6 - MC Titanium Ecoboost - no issues
• stuart - MC Titanium 2.2LTDCi, 60,000km - without any transmission issues
• Fehlbie - Titanium TDCi, 200,000km - still working beautifully

Contrasted with:

• Noelcbp - 2012 MC Titanium, 38,500km - Resolved fault - 'Major Transmission Failure' event and loss of drive, seemed good after restart. Diagnosed by fault codes, mechatronic unit replaced under warranty.
• SkidMarks - 2011 MC TDCi, 140,000km - Resolved by itself? - Shuddering or abrupt engagement when moving from stationary.
• Bobthekelpy - 2010 MC TDCi, 135,000km - Resolution unknown? - Intermittently throws fault codes for input speed sensor and goes onto one clutch. $3K quote to fix.
• Groomy - MC, 135,000km - Outcome unknown? - Intermittent rough shifts. Diagnosed shaft sensor by fault code and clutch pack damage in transmission fluid, $4.5K quote to fix.
• bundybear75 - 2012 MC LX TDCi, 134,000km - Resolved fault - 'Transmission Limited Function' event and loss of drive, came good after restart but CEL remained on and intermittent rough shifts. Diagnosed Powershift sensor by fault code, $2.5K quote to fix. Repaired under warranty.
• manchu - 2012 MC TDCi, 72,000km - Resolved fault - Multiple 'Transmission Limited Function' events with loss of drive, coming good after restart. TCM replaced under warranty.
• Mondaveo - 2011 MC Titanium TDCi, 90,000km - Suspect? - 'Transmission Limited Function' event and loss of drive, came good after restart. Has had occasional stumbles on shifting as long as I've owned it (about 4000km now).

That's 10 for and between 3 and 7 against, depending on how you want to count those that didn't report back; but 5 definite diagnoses of Powershift faults, anyway. Hmm, not as reassuring as I'd hoped, particularly for me being in that second list myself with no warranty to back me up
Don't get me wrong, because I love my car too, and the Powershift is honestly a delight when it's working. Each day I get a little more confidence back...

[Josh_mac3]

Originally Posted by juzandbec

In my research I read that a symptom of a failing powershift is surging or fluctuating rpm whilst maintaining a steady throttle up an incline - there is a YouTube video of what the tachometer does in this case.

Thanks for the reply. I did see that video of the tacho fluctuating, before I purchase I will be sure to take it for another test drive to check that and the other things mentioned.

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

That's 10 for and between 3 and 7 against, depending on how you want to count those that didn't report back; but 5 definite diagnoses of Powershift faults, anyway. Hmm, not as reassuring as I'd hoped, particularly for me being in that second list myself with no warranty to back me up
Don't get me wrong, because I love my car too, and the Powershift is honestly a delight when it's working. Each day I get a little more confidence back...

Thanks again for the in-depth response. I think I've come to the conclusion that at the end of the day, I'm buying a second hand car and there is always going to be a chance of something going wrong no matter what car it is. That being said, its nice to know the 'common' faults and be wary of the symptoms.

Tomorrow I plan to contact the dealer to see if he can send me the detail from the service history; first point and check the 60k km trans fluid. The car was apparently an ex company car from woolworths.. I would think that they would have serviced regularly and through the ford dealer. If I'm happy with that side of things I think I will go ahead with the second test drive.

[bundybear75]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

bundybear75 - 2012 MC LX TDCi, 134,000km - Resolved fault - 'Transmission Limited Function' event and loss of drive, came good after restart but CEL remained on and intermittent rough shifts. Diagnosed Powershift sensor by fault code, $2.5K quote to fix. Repaired under warranty.

In my case the early warning signs were a "neutral" between gears when upshifting. First noticed when accelerating down the on ramp onto the Hume Hwy out of Goulburn. This happened a couple of times before the error message and failure to proceed.

Since the repairs I have done over 4000km and couldn't be happier. It was a bad start though as I had only had the car a couple of days and done around 500km when the sensor failed.

[Josh_mac3]

Originally Posted by bundybear75

In my case the early warning signs were a "neutral" between gears when upshifting. First noticed when accelerating down the on ramp onto the Hume Hwy out of Goulburn. This happened a couple of times before the error message and failure to proceed.

Since the repairs I have done over 4000km and couldn't be happier. It was a bad start though as I had only had the car a couple of days and done around 500km when the sensor failed.

How would you best describe the 'neutral' between gears. Was there just a noticeable delay before the up shifting? I will be keen to look out for this, thanks!

[manchu]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

I think the extended warranty from the Holden dealer sounds like an excellent path to peace of mind, assuming the cost and T's & C's aren't too draconian.

Everything I've read about these types of after market warranties indicate they're not good value due to servicing restrictions, low caps on repair cost, un-covered items etc etc.

I'm not saying don't get it, but definitely read the PDS carefully and also compare with other 3rd party warranties. eg. RACV

~$800/3yrs Covering Engine/Gearbox/Diff. Up to $3000 per fix.
~$2200/3yrs Covering as per manufacturer warranty. Up to market value of the car per fix.

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

• manchu - 2012 MC TDCi, 72,000km - Resolved fault - Multiple 'Transmission Limited Function' events with loss of drive, coming good after restart. TCM replaced under warranty.

Hopefully resolved ;). Picking up today after almost a month waiting for the part!. My fix is under Stat Warranty and has been handled well by the Mazda dealer (loan car, work done by Ford etc). I'm sure I paid a premium over buying from dodgy (Car City esque) dealer, private or auctions but very glad I did. I'd like to think the Holden dealer OP is shopping at would be similarly good if there's any problems.

If buying privately I'd definitely get an RACV or equiv. pre-purchase inspection. Apparently RACV is liable to repair faults that arise within a certain time after purchase...that's what my mechanic told me anyway.

edit: Re. my specific powershift issue. 1st time it happened I'd been swapping between D&S modes and doing some manual shifting, but nothing harsh. 2nd time I'd been doing similar, but also had done a few hill starts. The fault occurred shortly after when driving normally. May have been coincidence, but definitely put the transmission through it's paces when test driving.

[empee82]

I have an MC Titanium TDCi about to hit 90K kms with no issues FYI. If something goes wrong people are going to look & complain on the www. If people are happy, they have no reason to go online & stop the haters.

[cyclone1410]

Done almost 20,000km over two and half years and not a single issue (touch wood) other than a dealer related lack of customer service. Not many km's I know but still one to add to the positive list. Each time I can wrench the car from my better half and go for a drive, I get out with a big satisfied smile on my face. It truly is a great car.

[bundybear75]

Originally Posted by Josh_mac3

How would you best describe the 'neutral' between gears. Was there just a noticeable delay before the up shifting? I will be keen to look out for this, thanks!

The neutral between gears was exactly that, instead of changing up when accelerating, it would free rev and there would be no drive, same as if you knocked the selector into N whilst accelerating.

I believe it was the TCM not receiving a proper signal from the speed sensor so not knowing what gear to choose it just opened off the clutches and stopped drive.

[Josh_mac3]

Thanks to everyone for their replies and input... Just an update on my situation.

Had a chat with my mechanic (who is also a family friend) for his advice and what he thought. He said that while they are a nice car with a lot of features, if something goes wrong or needs replacing, not just with the powershift but the car in whole, it's generally not a cheap fix. Funnily enough at the time I called him he had a mondeo titanium in his workshop (not sure if this was a sign) for repairs to the engine struts or something like that, but not the transmission.

Also spoke to a friend who is an auto sparky and the first thing he said was don't do it. Pretty much stated the same about them being nice, however from his experience, when there is a problem it can firstly be difficult to diagnose and secondly be expensive to fix.

Now before I had spoke to them both I had been leaning more towards not buying one and the last week was full of day and night research and forum browsing. The main reason being the costs, the car itself at $18450 and I looked at a third party warranty which was around $2K for 3 years extension of manufacturers warranty. I feel like that price is pretty good to be honest however as I would like to pay cash, that is a large chunk of my savings. I'm still fairly young (22), I'm still a 4th year apprentice sparky (I work in a industrial factory so no need for work ute) and I'm probably better off with the money saved away.

So to sum up, I've decided not to go ahead with the purchase, and to be clear, not purely because of the powershift issues. The plan (for now) is to stick with my current BA XR6 which has done 180k km, save up for a couple years and take it from there. I like the idea of maybe being able to afford a second hand MD titanium in the future as I still admire the mondeo!

[cobrin]

there's nothing wrong with the Mondeo on the whole, however what is wrong is deciding on one with a previous issue with the trans. There are plenty out there with no previous trans history. Shoot for those instead.

I'd not have wanted this one either, but I chose the safe bet and got one with a slushbox. Good idea on walking on that vehicle, keep your eye out there'll be others.

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by Josh_mac3

the car itself at $18450 and I looked at a third party warranty which was around $2K for 3 years extension of manufacturers warranty. I feel like that price is pretty good to be honest

Golly, was that driveaway price? Was there something obviously broken or wrong with it? Mine's same year, +15K more kms, no warranty option and I still paid more than your quote 5 months ago. (I'd say it was better than 'reasonable' condition tho.) Was there a reason it was that cheap, or has the market for used cars just continued to tank?

Originally Posted by Josh_mac3

Had a chat with my mechanic... if something goes wrong or needs replacing, not just with the powershift but the car in whole, it's generally not a cheap fix.

Also spoke to a friend who is an auto sparky and the first thing he said was don't do it.

I used to own an Astra, and read similar opinions about it as well as hearing it first-hand from a prospective buyer when I came to sell it. I don't doubt the horror stories, though it never gave me any trouble. Are there any modern cars that are easy to diagnose, cheap to fix and recommended by mechanics?

Originally Posted by Josh_mac3

I'm still fairly young [and] probably better off with the money saved away... The plan (for now) is to stick with my current BA XR6 which has done 180k km, save up for a couple years and take it from there.

You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. Well done on not getting blinded by the shinies!

[Josh_mac3]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

Was there a reason it was that cheap, or has the market for used cars just continued to tank?Not a drive away price, that's the lowest they said they would go, the original listed price was $18880. W.A stamp duty would have been another $500 odd. There was nothing wrong I could see with it, all servicing done by Ford including the 60k 'B' service. I think the market has dropped but the Mondeo itself doesn't hold value too well. Obviously it's still not a main, popular car here, so the demand is quite low I believe.

I used to own an Astra, and read similar opinions about it as well as hearing it first-hand from a prospective buyer when I came to sell it. I don't doubt the horror stories, though it never gave me any trouble. Are there any modern cars that are easy to diagnose, cheap to fix and recommended by mechanics? One minute I was confident with the Mondeo then the next minute I was nervous. It's very likely that I would have had no problems with it but the thought of having to pay for an expensive repair job would have put me in a bad position financially. My mechanic seems to think my xr6 is a good reliable car. I've had no major problems with it and touch wood it's going to keep battling for a couple more years.

You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders. Well done on not getting blinded by the shinies!

I still really like the Mondeo, I think I've noticed others driving them around me 10x more than I used to! But spending that money at this time for me is not really necessary. I'll keep saving and eventually treat myself down the track, like I said the thought of a used MD titanium sounds very appealing!

[Josh_mac3]

Made a mess of the quote on that one, whoops. Hope you can still follow it

[NZ XR6]

It shouldn't be difficult to diagnose and fix electrical faults in a Mondeo, or any other modern car. I suspect it has more to do with a general lack of competence by mechanics rather than the vehicle.

Having said that, it is difficult to go past Japanese when buying used. Except for Mitsubishi!

[cyclone1410]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

It shouldn't be difficult to diagnose and fix electrical faults in a Mondeo, or any other modern car. I suspect it has more to do with a general lack of competence by mechanics rather than the vehicle.

Having said that, it is difficult to go past Japanese when buying used. Except for Mitsubishi!

Absolutely spot on. Virtually all new cars use similar CANBUS systems, multiple control modules, and an array of sensors. A quick trip around manufacturer/model specific forums will glean a wealth of data highlighting similar issues (and costs) to what is shown on this forum. The difference is the knowledge and customer service approach of the dealer.

[rxj]

Originally Posted by juzandbec

I too was concerned about the powershift as it seems to come up on a search as the primary fault in an otherwise perfect car. In my research I read that a symptom of a failing powershift is surging or fluctuating rpm whilst maintaining a steady throttle up an incline - there is a YouTube video of what the tachometer does in this case.

My 2011 MC Mondeo has started to do this and it is most notable at 1.5K RPM and with a steady throttle at 80Kph but this happens on a flat road. My car has 63K on the clock. I will have to take it to the dealer in the next few days to find out the exact problem.

Cheers, rxj

[383hq]

have a MC diesel zetec
no problems with powershift trans, currently at 143k km's.

My only point of contention is that with great fuel economy, comes technological complexity (and cost) - some bits could be expensive to repair, but until they fail/wear out, I can't tell ya much more !

[manchu]

Speaking of economy, I'm thinking mine isn't as good as it should be. Just did 700km round trip (melb to lakes entrance) and averaged 6.6l/100km. Reasonable loaded with 2 small kids, wife, dog. Does that sound about right?

[NZ XR6]

I'd say in the ballpark but maybe a little higher than I'd expect. We're you using cruise control?

[manchu]

Yeah cruise wherever possible. There's a few towns to slow down through, and roads were pretty wet so maybe those factors added a little.