Ford Media Watch Thread

[King Nothing]

Many here know and agree with the influence modern media has on the world. This can have real and devastating consequences on people's lives. Whilst the media's influence is never the only factor in change, it often acts as a catalyst bringing about an event that may have been avoided given more time.

The perfect case in point was the closure of Mitsubishi's manufacturing here in Australia. Many can argue that it was purely that Mitsu built a car that nobody wanted. Whilst this was true to an extent, none can deny the massively negative influence that the media had on sales of the 380. Some people did not buy the car due to fears of buying an "orphan" car.

Now that Mitsu is gone, the sights have been set on Ford Australia. In recent times, I have seen articles making statements such as "another nail in the coffin of the falcon", "Ford lifts it's 40 year old engine off of the scrap heap", and the like. The most notable of these articles recently is Paul Pottingers "Good Money after Bad", published on the carsguide website (see the falcon to continue I6 thread, around page 7-8). This article was a purely opinionated based piece of "journalism". No facts were offered, and what little knowledge the author did have of the subject was twisted to present a negative view.

My responses, along with others, are posted in the thread mentioned above. When presented with professional, factual responses that were not opinion based, the author did not respond. Eventually the article was re-submitted under a different web address with all comments removed. To date there have been many comments sent to this new article, none of which have been published.

The above point proves that, when we combine together and use intelligent, factual responses, that we can have an effect. True, it was not a large one, but obviously our responses were so well thought out, that the author had no choice but to save face by removing the comments. This would have cost carsguide time and money, as nothing is for free. Paul, along with any technical IT staff, have had to take the time to resubmit. Carsguide would be paying $$ for this.

I do not want to see the falcon go the way of the 380. I do not want to see ford Aus manufacturing in this country follow mitsubishi. If we do not make a stand, they will move on to holden. Many of us here are not holden fans, but would rather drive a commodore, or a camry?

We have already proven that together we can make a difference. My proposal is that we use this thread as a type of "media watch" source. Articles which show an obvious bias, using incorrect assumptions and twisting of information, can be posted here and intelligent responses thought out and posted. We can also use this as a technical resource, to store information such as fuel consumption figures, engine/driveline specifications, sales figures etc. Provided that they have a reference behind them as support.

We may not succeed. The falcon's future may already be sealed. But I'll be damned if I let the media in this country run Ford Aus into the ground the same way they did to mitsu. I will make it my goal to make it as difficult as possible for these mongrels to write anything that is not grounded in reality. Let's make it hard for them.

I would appreciate if any articles people find could be posted in here.

To start the ball rolling, the infamous Paul Pottinger
http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/be..._after_bad_pp/

Another carsguide piece of brilliance
http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/mo...ne_plant_open/

Is there a website that presents the car sales figures for Aus? That would be very handy to have. Otherwise we can just put in links to the other V-facts threads here.

One ok website for quick specification checks (power, fuel consumption), is http://www.redbook.com.au/

I'm at the point of writing a written letter to carsguide. Written word is always much better than online, plus you are not limited to 1200 characters! It's very difficult to make a well written piece in such a short space.

[pwr4ce]

Yes -I think the media has a lot to answer for.
I think they get hold of something and keep at it until we all think there way
It is like they have too much control!

[Steve]

Could I suggest this thread be heavily moderated to cut out the drivel?

[snappy]

Great idea King nothing.
I just left my coment on the good money after bad article .
From memory the falcon was the only family car increasing sales in a family market.
From the v-fact figures . Silly article i imagine there is a lot of company's that would be extremely happy to put that motor under there bonnet.

[snappy]

Originally Posted by Steve

Could I suggest this thread be heavily moderated to cut out the drivel?

Not wrong i left a comment and found it quite hard not come off as a fan boy angry because my opinion differ's from there's.
But dribble can be pretty thick coming out of there mouth too. I think its a great idea if can be civil and smart.
But if true facts are put here in this thread to censor the media from dribble why not

[mongoloid]

Originally Posted by King Nothing

Many here know and agree with the influence modern media has on the world.

I wouldn't say i agree with it.

Originally Posted by Steve

Could I suggest this thread be heavily moderated to cut out the drivel.

Aren't these forums already heavily moderated?

But in all seriousness i agree with your point. However i think most peoples response would be 'why isn't Ford doing this'.

[dom_105]

Great idea.

[bafel]

pottinger again

an article dating back to earlier this year, before FG launch.

the comments are unbelievable, completely unprofessional.

[Lightning Strike XR6]

I think we should also comment on the positive stories as it will hopefully encourage the author to write more positive articles.

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by Steve

Could I suggest this thread be heavily moderated to cut out the drivel?

I agree. I really don't want this thread to turn into a ford vs holden one. If it isn't a good idea or goes pear shaped, then I'm happy for the mods to lock/delete it. So guys please keep it sensible.

Originally Posted by jonnomc

I think we should also comment on the positive stories as it will hopefully encourage the author to write more positive articles.

Thanks, something I forgot to mention as well.

Originally Posted by mongoloid

I wouldn't say i agree with it.

Fair enough, perhaps wasn't the best line to open with.

To reiterate, what I want to do is make it as difficult as possible for these journalists to write unsubstantiated opinionated pieces. If they have the correct data, then fair enough.

In your responses please try to avoid sweeping generalisations, as it only gives these people ammunition. And remember, there is more than one way to spin statistics. Perfect example, they say large car sales are shrinking, we say ford was one of the few manufacturers to increase sales recently.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by jonnomc

I think we should also comment on the positive stories as it will hopefully encourage the author to write more positive articles.

A bit like 'Pavlov's' experiment with that dog hey ?

[King Nothing]

My next response to Paul's article. He seems to refuse to print any comments that repeat deleted ones or make note of deleted comments. I've tried a new line of enquires that try to discredit or contextualise more parts of his article. Let's hope it's printed

Hi Paul

I question your judgement as to why it was a poor decision for the government to invest part of the $21 million required to meet the Euro IV emissions. This decision will save up to 1,300 jobs. Taking the average Australian wage of approximately $50,000 per year, if Geelong were to close that would be $65 million a year that would not be paid to employees.

Over the 3 years that this deal extend plant life by, that's almost $200m. Play with the numbers if you want. At the end of the day it keeps people in jobs in these uncertain economic times, and provides a continued stream of income into the economy which would vanish, at least partially if not totally, if Geelong were to close.

If you wish to compare sales statistics, then please present a more representative picture. On a year on year basis, 2008 vs 2007, Falcon performed very well against competitors in a shrinking overall market.

Falcon down 4.3%
Commodore down 15.8%
Aurion down 11.1%
Yaris down 12.6%

Does nobody want the Commodore? Or the Aurion? Or even the tiny Yaris, which fell almost 3 times as much in sales?

I look forward to your response

[EgoFG]

I posted a comment on his 'Nobody is buying them'
According to last months sales figures, and assuming 85% fleet (from CountryCars - the figures are not available) The Falcon model would have been almost 700 private sales, and this would certainly have been top 5 of private sales, and maybe number 3.

I made no conclusion, just stated the facts.

[vztrt]

Another thing to note is Mazda (from previous atricles) has the largest amount of private buyers. But Qtr 3 they made a 1 million dollar loss. Now that would have to be worrying.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

The Falcon model would have been almost 700 private sales, and this would certainly have been top 5 of private sales, and maybe number 3.

I made no conclusion, just stated the facts.

I think it would be very unlikely that 700 sales would achieve a top 5 of private car sales. Nearly all Mazda 3 sales are private, likewise I think somewhere around 60% of Corolla sales are private too.

Here's the list from Drive.com.au for the first 5 months of 2008:

Top 10 selling vehicles (overall)


1. Toyota Corolla
2. Holden Commodore
3. Toyota HiLux
4. Mazda3
5. Ford Falcon
6. Toyota Yaris
7. Toyota Camry
8. Toyota Aurion
9. Honda Civic
10. Mitsubishi Lancer


Private
1. Toyota Corolla
2. Mazda3
3. Toyota Yaris
4. Honda Civic
5. Mazda2
6. Ford Focus
7. Holden Commodore
8. Mitsubishi Lancer
9. Suzuki Swift
10. Honda CR-V

[Jondalar]

Vote for the G6E Turbo for Peoples CHoice in the CarsGuide Car of the Year here: http://carsguide.news.com.au/car-of-the-year/

[Falc'man]

http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/be..._after_bad_pp/
Posts are up, and I wonder if his boss would be happy with the amount of criticism hurled at him for his misinformation...

He got reamed; I hope he thinks before he speaks next time.

[Airmon]

I wouldn't at all be surprised if he's payed to generate this kind of attention. How many extra hits would Carsguide be getting at the moment thanks to us? How much more can they charge Advertisers due to it?
There's no such thing as bad publicity.

That said, I still gave him my 2c.

[J_Tank]

Exactly Airmon, have a look at a few other of the guys articles... most publications be they online or in print employ these bottom feeders, ie Piers Ackerman, to generate interest in their lacklustre efforts. Saves them from having to do any actual work.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Airmon

I wouldn't at all be surprised if he's payed to generate this kind of attention. How many extra hits would Carsguide be getting at the moment thanks to us? How much more can they charge Advertisers due to it?
There's no such thing as bad publicity.

That said, I still gave him my 2c.

So be it; they get the attention they want. But if people keep ripping into him at least it sets the record straight. On one hand they're getting extra dollars, on the other hand people reading his rubbish know not to believe it. I think that's the idea of this thread.

Apart from all that, he better be very thick skinned to want to be "payed to generate extra attention".
To know what I'm talking about have a look at the sequence of events; initially he defended everything he wrote.
Secondly, he deleted all the posts and changed the web address. Does this say something? I think it does.
Thirdly, we all bombard him, collectively. He allows all the posts we dished at him, but with zero defence or justification from him.

Propaganda has been happening since day dot, and the only thing that keeps this rubbish going is when people keep quiet. If they never gave us the opportunity to comment, we'd whinge about not having the opportunity to comment. I'm glad you left your 2c.

[mik]

I have seen better ethical journalism from from our non professional forum members, very sad indeed :

[RG]

Originally Posted by mik

I have seen better ethical journalism from from our non professional forum members, very sad indeed :

I have seen better spelling from my 8yo niece too. I recently was in an email war with none other than the Falcon hating Paul Gover. His grammar and spelling left a LOT to be desired from someone that calls himself and editor.

[madmelon]

It would seem that we have had a very positive influence on that article. As a car lover in general and someone passionate about the Australian automotive industry, I am delighted to have been a part.

Also due to the aforementioned, I'm throwing this out there- is it inappropriate to suggest we should apply this to all Australian built cars? As much as we are Ford supporters, Ford would not be where it is without Holden, Mitsubishi or Toyota having been present competing with them. We make excellent products in this country and I would feel somewhat ashamed about supporting one brand so heavily and neglecting the others if/when they are similarly slandered.

Thoughts?

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by madmelon

It would seem that we have had a very positive influence on that article. As a car lover in general and someone passionate about the Australian automotive industry, I am delighted to have been a part.

Also due to the aforementioned, I'm throwing this out there- is it inappropriate to suggest we should apply this to all Australian built cars? As much as we are Ford supporters, Ford would not be where it is without Holden, Mitsubishi or Toyota having been present competing with them. We make excellent products in this country and I would feel somewhat ashamed about supporting one brand so heavily and neglecting the others if/when they are similarly slandered.

Thoughts?

I'm a bit wary of the idea. Not because I don't agree, far from it. It's just that most people here are ford fans so I imagine it wouldn't get as positive a response. It may result in arguments. If people want to respond in a similar fashion to any holden/toyota articles then go for it, but at this stage I'd rather that it's not posted in this thread.

I'm amazed that what appears to be all the posts have made it through on that article. I'm still contemplation setting a written letter but I couldn't find a physical address (didn't look too much though). Much better to annoy the editor where no revenue is raised through advertising, etc.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by madmelon

It would seem that we have had a very positive influence on that article. As a car lover in general and someone passionate about the Australian automotive industry, I am delighted to have been a part.

Also due to the aforementioned, I'm throwing this out there- is it inappropriate to suggest we should apply this to all Australian built cars? As much as we are Ford supporters, Ford would not be where it is without Holden, Mitsubishi or Toyota having been present competing with them. We make excellent products in this country and I would feel somewhat ashamed about supporting one brand so heavily and neglecting the others if/when they are similarly slandered.

Thoughts?

It's the right thing to do, provided we know the finer details of other makes and thus use the correct facts and arguments.

Edit:
King Nothing's point is very valid; being Ford fanatics it's easier focusing on the one make, and avoid all the conjecture and arguments.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by madmelon

It would seem that we have had a very positive influence on that article. As a car lover in general and someone passionate about the Australian automotive industry, I am delighted to have been a part.

Also due to the aforementioned, I'm throwing this out there- is it inappropriate to suggest we should apply this to all Australian built cars? As much as we are Ford supporters, Ford would not be where it is without Holden, Mitsubishi or Toyota having been present competing with them. We make excellent products in this country and I would feel somewhat ashamed about supporting one brand so heavily and neglecting the others if/when they are similarly slandered.

Thoughts?

I agree with you completely.

I felt a twinge of sadness when I heard that MMAL were shutting down Tonsley, and actually shed a tear reading the Wheels article about the factory. Three Valiants, four Sigmas and a Magna that went to my family (direct and indirect) came out of Tonsley, and I can't fault the Magna at all. I actually enjoy driving it.

Think about this. If Holden go (and if GM go, it'll happen) Ford won't have any competition in the RWD segment, and this will spell the end for not only a RWD Falcon, but for Ford Australia. Toyota not so much. They were in direct competition with the dynamically superior Magna. When Focus becomes a Local product, I think Toyota and Holden (should they still be here) will both bring on another product. Toyota want the Kluger, however once Territory gets a facelift and a Diesel, it will be at the top of the sales charts again. The smartest thing for Toyota and Holden is Corolla and Astra.

Manufacturing is the backbone to any country's economy. If we loose Cars, we will never get them back. Ever. Australia needs to be building cars here.

My 200¢.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

I think it would be very unlikely that 700 sales would achieve a top 5 of private car sales. Nearly all Mazda 3 sales are private, likewise I think somewhere around 60% of Corolla sales are private too.

Here's the list from Drive.com.au for the first 5 months of 2008:

Top 10 selling vehicles (overall)


1. Toyota Corolla
2. Holden Commodore
3. Toyota HiLux
4. Mazda3
5. Ford Falcon
6. Toyota Yaris
7. Toyota Camry
8. Toyota Aurion
9. Honda Civic
10. Mitsubishi Lancer


Private
1. Toyota Corolla
2. Mazda3
3. Toyota Yaris
4. Honda Civic
5. Mazda2
6. Ford Focus
7. Holden Commodore
8. Mitsubishi Lancer
9. Suzuki Swift
10. Honda CR-V

Yes, those are the year to date figures
This has been a crazy year with a pull from big cars to small cars in the fleets. Crunching last month's sales figures against the % I can see, I think we will find the Falc is top 5.

The trouble is we will not get the figures needed to do this calculation :-(

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

I think it would be very unlikely that 700 sales would achieve a top 5 of private car sales. Nearly all Mazda 3 sales are private, likewise I think somewhere around 60% of Corolla sales are private too.

Here's the list from Drive.com.au for the first 5 months of 2008:

Top 10 selling vehicles (overall)


1. Toyota Corolla
2. Holden Commodore
3. Toyota HiLux
4. Mazda3
5. Ford Falcon
6. Toyota Yaris
7. Toyota Camry
8. Toyota Aurion
9. Honda Civic
10. Mitsubishi Lancer


Private
1. Toyota Corolla
2. Mazda3
3. Toyota Yaris
4. Honda Civic
5. Mazda2
6. Ford Focus
7. Holden Commodore
8. Mitsubishi Lancer
9. Suzuki Swift
10. Honda CR-V

One thin to consider from the fleet sales is that the Falcon does not discount as heavily as Holden does (unless this has changed in the last 12 months). But speaking to a few people looking at pricing between the two the Commodore was always cheaper then the Falcon.
But it would be interesting to hear from a fleet manager.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by vztrt

But it would be interesting to hear from a fleet manager.

This topic has been raised before just last month and Merlin had a good reply:

Originally Posted by merlin

A few comments from me:
2) A few people have commented how the government should buy local - as the manager of a large government department I have gone from buying Ford Falcon utes to buying Toyota Hilux's and from Ford Falcon sedans to Corolla's. Why? Well unfortunatly the Falcons spend more time in the dealers getting fixed under warranty than on the road and then when we go to sell them they're resale value is laughable. The Toyota Hilux and Corolla's just seem to work flawlessly and resale is superior to the Aussie offerings. Not to mention the fuel savings to the taxpayer over the 4cyl engines (yes egas will save some fuel costs but it is all lost from the resale and time off the road). In the end it is taxpayers money I am spending - so by getting better resale and reliability with the Toyota I am saving the public money. This is a very delicate topic and I think theres more to it than just saying "force government to buy local".

3) People are also saying that the local manufacturers serve the public/government with options - such as the FG mentioned above. Taking Ford as the example, what options are you talking about? Certainly not engine options....they offer a 4 litre 6 cylinder engine or 5.4L V8. We get hammered constantly about fuel costs and "green credentials" ect. so have switched to 4cyl Corolla's for a lot of the fleet - if Ford made a local 4 cyl we would investigate buying that (yes Focus is coming, to bad about the wait). Ford have the E-gas offering which we have purchased in the past - they are OK but also plagued by warranty problems and poor resale as mentioned in point 2 and they are far from thrifty anyway the way fleet cars are driven.

Would we switch back to local - we would love to if they sorted out their quality control and got resale values going up (which by government fleets not buying them as much I think it is helping resale to go up as huge numbers of Falcon fleet cars are nt flooding the auctions as much). Also if they offered a smaller 4 cyl engine option.

In then end it is worth saving the industry and the jobs otherwise in 20 years time we will be in big trouble.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by vztrt

One thin to consider from the fleet sales is that the Falcon does not discount as heavily as Holden does (unless this has changed in the last 12 months). But speaking to a few people looking at pricing between the two the Commodore was always cheaper then the Falcon.
But it would be interesting to hear from a fleet manager.

i think ford stopped discounting as it was destroying the resale of the falcon too much. i would say it has worked as the resale these days is very similar between holden and ford.