Are we on the wrong side side???

**Revolver** · 22-03-2010, 09:22 AM

Ive said before that I'm usually a glass half full type of guy, But do we have the odds stacked against us?? SERIOUSLY stacked against us? Something dawned on me on Saturday during a quiet period at work. It seriously got me thinking.. Are we as Ford followers on the wrong side??? Now for everyone who just yelled NO! rather loudly at your computer monitor & made the rest of the family jump, including fido, just hear me out...

After flicking through Australian Muscle Car magazine, & reading the article on the FG Ford wagon, or the lack of it, then reading the AFF thread about it, well it planted the seed for thought....

With no FG Wagon, then once again we lose ANOTHER piece of the pie. Another FoMoCo product gone, & like it said in AMC, trying to graft the FG front on the BA/AU body, if they got it to work, just...... wouldnt work. It would have similar results as the EF onto the X series ute.

Now look at the succes of the VE commodore wagon?? & there is such a big range... From Omega to SS, plus the HSV versions... Holden is appealing to such a broad range... & one that is such a good idea: the family wagon that the man of the house thoroughly enjoys driving & take to the strip once the weeks dutys are over. I mean how good is that?? Gone can be the day of having the extra car the he can have to play with.... So less rego, less room taken up... less expenses....less wife nagging (some may say thats priceless) Some people want a car to play with but cant afford costs of buying & keeping it. I can see thats a pretty powerful marketing tool, even if it isn't marketed. I saw two examples of this on the weekend, at the servo. Family in an SS, come in to buy some stuff, the Guy is obviously a car man, you can just tell by the powercruise shirt he's wearing, the note on the VE as he pulled in, & hes on the way to a drag day.....

Then theres the Fairlane. It was said that "Fairlane would have no place in the Orion line up" Now Holden took another slice. I'm seeing More & more Statesmans on the road than ever.... Not to mention the Business Class/Silver Service Taxi's (or the higher class names in other states). More & more Statesmans, 300c's the occaisonal G6E but its not alot of them. Now some of you may say, just buy a G range car, it has the same stuff. Would you buy a GT if it was Axed & something else was similar, but not named the same?? Probably not, its just not the same as the badge on the front that says GT.

Now lets ask some other questions... Why is the Holden range SO varied against the Ford range?? Both mainstream & the Performance market? And for the main part selling against us. I see more clubsports on the road than FPV's. A real shame I have to say. But why? What is it about Holdens marketing appeal that has had them shifting more Holdens for years over us (Im talking Commodore over Falcon, you know the Aussie built stuff). For years they were Ozs' top selling australian made/top selling car (cant remember exactly).

Then there's news/rumours that has the WHOLE ford oz community getting shivers down our spines... The cloud over Falcon remaning as part of the current line up. (you can't count the rebadged versions people, its just not the same). I wouldnt buy the new one... I'll tell you that. Im sure that alot of you have been thinking (& saying on FF), thats the same case.. you wouldnt buy the import. I read somewhere that the Falcon would be confirmed until 2015. What then?? You really want to drive that import? Sorry but Taurus or what ever would replace our beloved bird, (looking at the Taurus failure) HAS NO PLACE IN AUSTRALIA. But maybe thats an opinion. However I do have the facts of sales figures to add substance to my arguement.

Now to me its hard to decifer... What can you trust?? the backyard barbie conversation (theres always one person thinking he knows best), the car magazines (who are printing mags to make money), know it alls, (who really know nothing), the critics, (who are most often wrong), or Ford (who makes a statement, then retracts it, but generally sits on the fence with decisions), even AFF members can miss targets. So where can you draw a substantial amount information to get a confirmation??

Lets face it Ford has a history of just cutting stuff off, look at the V8 in the late 80's. Ford says it's for money reasons. But why isn'y Holden doing this? They too have been hit by finanicial problems. But even head Company GM recognises Holdens ability to create cars that have a big place in the market. Look at GM's import into the state of munny's & commodores, now they are trying to break into the law enforcement market over there. Not to metion that holden is creating cars with a multiuse platform to export. (Ve is interchangable from LH to RH drive) & has rumoured to have a very big hand in the new camaros design... Ford Oz is simply 'the box in the corner' of the worldwide ford vision. - Tuckem over there & let them be. Ford oz just isnt really taken seriously by HQ, or is it because they haven't been given the chance? & if they have & it hasn't worked - Thats worse! Without a exportable platform, ford Australia is heading in a bad direction.

Personally I think that the whole reason that holden has such a big following now is from fords v8 engine termination in the 80's, so with nowhere else to go some switched sides... & of course these people had kids, & grew up with holden branded stuff everywhere, & naturally loved holden. I could be wrong. Are there any holden converts here? Why did you jump?

Lets look at V8SC. We lost BJR a few years back. A good team with solid reults, & the man who has spent more time in a Ford Racing car than any other man, John Bowe. Ok so he retired, but he was a great ambassador for blue. But I saw him at this years V8SC track day at QR in the Vodafone garage, talking with the team... (this can be viewed as harmless though). We lost T8 (no comments please) who were undoubtly our biggest savoir in recent times.

Now breifly on the T8 effect, two of my mates were going to go & by an XR8 each, because of T8's success. An XR8 is about 40K a pop on the road right? or there abouts. After T8 switched they said nope, not now. Thats 80k of lost sales. Now multiply that by 10 fans, 100?? How much business is that? (& if you doubt that many people would do that, think again! there are a few V8SC ford fans out there).

Ok sure, DJR are back with ford funding & so they should be... But I'd say thats more of a "hang on guys, ah, we lost T8, alot of people aren't happy about it. I think we better make ourselves look better & provide some money to DJR" rather than, a true business decision.

Weve lost PCR. Yes I know that SBR, FPR & DJR are running third cars, but its not the same as another team, & how longs this third car thing going to last? I'd say (& weve seen it before) just long enough that teams realise, that, oh geez we can't affod to keep another... Because even Steven Johnson said, its another 50% again over the other 2 cars.

Not to mention, the concept cars, & you've got to give 'em credit. Holden has come out with some ripper stuff. Off the top of my head - New Monaro, the convertible dubbed 'marylin', HRT 427, that gold version that was meant to be a club racer, the new torana (really a heavily modded vectra) but still, the SSX 4wheel drive SS, then Effijy..... Just wow. Now ford..... AH, that red two door AU that was said to be built by the Hilliers, Arrow, the other 2 door AU also built by Hilliers. What else??? Predator? the gas 6 cylinder show car doing the rounds at motor shows in the late 90's? Oh jeez ford really riveting stuff.... NOT. Is there a car design gene that ford australia just doesnt have?

You might say that concept cars are nothing, but it gets people looking at them, creating the buzz, & gets a few people to change.. More to the red side. I had one friend who hated holden but then went WOW at 427, then gradualy start to change. Now hes red!

So are we on a sinking ship?? Do I have merits in my arguements?? Am I badly wrong? Am I just saying out loud that (be honest with youreslf) most if not all of us hav been thinking? Please keep to facts, not the whole "ford is just better' Thats good for a laugh, but I'm serious. I think were in trouble people......

BBII

flappist · 22-03-2010, 09:24 AM

Short answer to the question.

NO

jpd80 · 22-03-2010, 09:41 AM

It's always been harder for Ford fans, nothing ever comes easy.

That's why success in the showroom and race track is so cherished by supporters.

Go hard or go home.

Ghiadude · 22-03-2010, 09:51 AM

Dont top yourself just yet. SOme positives
EB I4
supercharged V8's
turbo 6's
Diesel territory
LiLPG
possible G8E
possible FPV "halo car"
Possible product alignment with mustang in the states as well as possible lincoln off shoots.

In effect GM is reaping what they sowed a couple of years back - Ford on the other hand is just about to ... Glass is half full.

merlin · 22-03-2010, 09:56 AM

Tl;dr

SumoDog68 · 22-03-2010, 10:02 AM

Ford Oz has lot of expertise but it seems tied down by higher forces and not really allowed to show what it can do.
Another problem is slow reaction time to any market trends , diesel and new LPG system are taking forewer ,wagon is off the board.
There are opportunities for a Oz Ford but they need to get some freedom and come out with some up to date and exciting stuff.

StrokedXT · 22-03-2010, 10:09 AM

Ford concentrate on making profitable vehicles, GMH concentrate on selling as many vehicles as they can in the hope they turn a profit.

SVTVNM · 22-03-2010, 10:10 AM

Sometimes I think it seems as though, Ford assume those who buy Blue will always buy Blue, Which 10 or more years ago this may have been enough to sustain FoMoCo Aus, but as we all know the choice and range of vehicle now compared to then has changes and the quality of lesser brands had improved so much. Even things liek warranties would have to be a contributing factors for some buyers, when Companies like Mitsubishi offer things like their 5-5-10 warranties it makes it hard it think. Well thats my 2 bobs worth!

banarcus · 22-03-2010, 10:16 AM

It's ok mate, it really is.

I wonder if Apple Ipod owners lose sleep as such? If they did, would we laugh?

kezzer · 22-03-2010, 10:20 AM

If production moves overseas and they stop building the 4l I will not buy ford again.

dannyxm · 22-03-2010, 10:38 AM

Mate i can see where you are coming from but...

Being a Ford man is all about loyalty. I remember back in 2003 when Ambrose won at Oran park in the same year he won the championship in his BA. The Ford fans for years went to the races only to see us getting whipped (the AU days) and it was so great to see us win after years of geting belted from pillar to post. We let the Holden boys know exactly what we thought of them!

Even when we were getting beaten, in a strange way it made me feel more loyal to the brand than ever.

Ford dropping thr V8 in the 80s was a stupid decision, even if the XF sold well. However we cannot simply point the finger to the 80s forever and say thats where we went wrong. We hve had a V8 falcon since 1991 in the EB. We need to get over it!

The FG series is fantastic. I seriously do not think they are losing anything by not having the Fairlane. (As much as a love the LWB Fords.)

The G series is fantastic and is a serious competitor to Euro makes.

Who care about the Silver service taxis when all the other taxis getting people home are Falcons.

The VE is still a VE, if anything i would say that there is too much of the same car rather than a variance for people to buy.

As long in the tooth the Territory is, its a wonderful vehicle that Australians should be proud of and is a different and valid option to buy. Holden came to the party with a jacked up Commodore wagon. it was obvious that it was inferior to the Territory.

With the 888 defection, it does hurt, (even my user name was Danny888) but really, if anyone wants to change cars becouse 888 did, they really need to have a long hard look at themselves.

BJR was racing Holdens long before the switch to Ford (AUSCAR) in any event its not a big loss. Name a time when they actually won a race?

With concept cars, they are just simply that, concept cars.

The Predator was a great concept car that perhaps paved the way to hypo 6 pack turbo Falcons that we have almost taken for granted.

The Falcon ute is a great design, that is far better that the Holden option. For one its a ute, not a 'designer ute' like the Holden is. It can actually carry a pay load if need be.

We are on the right side.

Auslandau · 22-03-2010, 10:54 AM

The quick answer? Absolutley NO.

.... if V8's was the demise of the brand ..... XF was one of the most successfull models ... followed by EL/F ... one during the drought and 1 after! AU Forte series 1 was more of a reason.

I have always beleived that FORD will make more desicions based on profit and that is not entirely a bad thing. Compared to GM who have no idea on where they want to sit in the market and try and cater for for the 2% ...... which in the long term is not good. They are living on brand alone .... nothing else, and that is a very fickle thing.

FORD did loose there way but like everyone has ups and downs but seems to have a hell of a better long term plan ...... 2015 and I beleive things will fall into place very nicely. GM 'seem' to be flying by the seat of their pants. The disaster which is Pontiac is testament to this .....

Its not like following a footy team .... if you want to drive the most popular number 1 car and say you are winning .... buy a Corolla.

| [/url] |

GT450 · 22-03-2010, 10:54 AM

So much made from so little. This forum really is therapy for some.
Gt450

3vXT · 22-03-2010, 10:56 AM

There are sides? I'll support whoever makes the better overall product. When i was last car shopping, that was Ford.

XR6_661 · 22-03-2010, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken2903

There are sides? I'll support whoever makes the better overall product. When i was last car shopping, that was Ford.

I'll support the side of which make I like better.

I couldn't care less if Fords were worse than Holden. Ford is in my blood....grown up with them.

It's like vegemite and marmite...you like one or the other, simple as that. Not changing to the other because one has more yeast.

The right 'side' to be on is down to personal preference.

pottery beige · 22-03-2010, 11:15 AM

A wise man once told me 'get wise, get Ford'... And i did..

flappist · 22-03-2010, 11:22 AM

Such a pessimist......

V8 super cars, world championsh wrestling on wheels. There is no Ford or Holden technology, it is a pantomime for bogans.

Wagons are going the way of panelvans, once a big seller but now a shrinking market. Pouring money into a shrinking market is foolish. Leave it to others because 100% of stuff all is twice as much a 50% of stuff all but 100% of the losses due to development is something that others can have for free

Concept cars?
Have you already forgotten the Galaxie and the open top territory?

Some of the concept cars made it to production.
EA GT, F6 Typhoon & Force were all concepts.

The Ford model range.

Ford have enough brains to discontinue things that don't sell rather than continue on to financial disaster.
The T series were a sales disaster but evolved into the GT series which has been quite sucessful.
The T6 has grown from a single model to cover quite a bit of the range and sells its bum off.

It actually reminds me a lot of clothing stores.

Mens stores have a small range of practical clothes in various sizes.

Womens stores have a huge range with mix and match styling, every accessory that they can think of and lots of avante garde for those who wish to make a "statement".

Of course there are always a few men who look across the road at the womens stores wishing that they could wear those clothes instead if only they made them in mens sizes..........

mik · 22-03-2010, 11:27 AM

here we go AGAIN! NO!

144HSK · 22-03-2010, 11:46 AM

RedHotGT · 22-03-2010, 12:04 PM

Are you likening Ford Australia to:
Betamax (vs VHS)
Laser Disc (vs DVD)
Top Gear Australia (vs Top Gear UK)
Polaroid Camera (vs digital and film Cameras)
Perforated Print Paper (vs a box of reflex)
*I could give more examples - but I think my point has been made*

My blood certainly runs blue...
While there are certainly things that I would like to see changed about Ford Oz, there is a lot to like...

Do you change your footy team when you lose a game or finish bottom of the ladder?

aussie muscle · 22-03-2010, 12:06 PM

well written essay, Blue. i know what you mean. if the holden ute wasn't so ugly, i might consider it for my next car. it's probably a big parallel with VHS and BETA video equipment. people preferred vhs even tho it was technically inferior. Also, I think a lot of aussie's like the 'underdog', which is where ford could be making a lot of brownie points. (VHS was the underdog, vs Sony)

a lot is said about falcons = taxis, but from a customer's point of view, a toyota makes a much better taxi as the rear seat is much more comfortable. ever sat in the back of a holden/ford? aweful.

I don't see how Ford aus can survive without Falcon. they are not like Ford EU, who can rely pretty much entirely on focus, mondeo & fiesta.

chevypower · 22-03-2010, 12:17 PM

I'm on the side that doesn't seem as popular sales-wise, quite a bit. And I am fine with that. (I don't know all the figures, it just seems that way)
I take Ford over GM
Mac vs PC
Wendy's vs McDonald's (Hungry Jack's when I am in Australia)
Nikon vs Canon
Benelli vs Remington
Bombardier vs Yamaha

Quite often, the most popular isn't "the best." If you need to follow the crowd, you're best off getting a Holden (or Chevy) buying a Big Mac every day with your Dell or HP PC laptop with the latest version of Windows, with a Canon camera that has the most megapixels.

uranium_death · 22-03-2010, 12:57 PM

Flappist has rightly pointed out enough times already...

The market for wagons is dead. Yes, Holden are selling squillions but as been said before, it is competing directly with their sedan.

Ford have a winning vehicle in the Territory that is in a completely different market segment to the Falcon. Ford has a wagon that is purely a workhorse that has cost bugger all to retain.

Exports for the Statesmen are making it a lot more viable than would otherwise be the case.

Ford may not have the sales, but is doing smarter business.

XR6_661 · 22-03-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

Mac vs PC
Nikon vs Canon

BLASPHEMY

Brazen · 22-03-2010, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Flappist has rightly pointed out enough times already...

The market for wagons is dead. Yes, Holden are selling squillions but as been said before, it is competing directly with their sedan.

Ford have a winning vehicle in the Territory that is in a completely different market segment to the Falcon. Ford has a wagon that is purely a workhorse that has cost bugger all to retain.

Exports for the Statesmen are making it a lot more viable than would otherwise be the case.

Ford may not have the sales, but is doing smarter business.

I know of many Territory owners who have come from Falcon, so there is substitution there.

Also we have no access to Ford AUs balance sheet, so I dont know whether anyone can claim that Ford is doing smarter business.

Bud Bud · 22-03-2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

I'm on the side that doesn't seem as popular sales-wise, quite a bit. And I am fine with that. (I don't know all the figures, it just seems that way)
I take Ford over GM
Mac vs PC
Wendy's vs McDonald's (Hungry Jack's when I am in Australia)
Nikon vs Canon
Benelli vs Remington
Bombardier vs Yamaha

Quite often, the most popular isn't "the best." If you need to follow the crowd, you're best off getting a Holden (or Chevy) buying a Big Mac every day with your Dell or HP PC laptop with the latest version of Windows, with a Canon camera that has the most megapixels.

Boeing vs Airbus! There will always be rivals which is always good for competition.

Chevypower how did you end up with you signature?

Years ago I remember pretty much the same for Chrysler/Valiant in the 60's and 70,s as well. Despite them always offering the most powerful six's and eight's of their time, they always seem to play the third poor cousin for some reason as well.

I do see your point Blue Beast II, I actually do know some people that changed camps because of the lack of a V8 option for the XF-EA as well. But that is a good case in piont because I think that if a market dictates, then some models can make a comeback as well. While the V8 Ford is one example, the resurrection of the Statesman and even the Ute for Holden is another. At this stage it would just be wiser to make sure Ford Aus is still there in 2015. The segment is shrinking and they are a business first before anything else.

WASP · 22-03-2010, 01:33 PM

From having many Holden supporters as friends, I can tell you that the grass looks always greener on the other side, no matter what side that is.

If you were a Holden man you may possibly feel dirty that the Ford people have many cheap, fast and economical turbo-charged toys to play with. Almost every segemnt, small, mide-size, large, luxury & even a SUV has a turbo-charged, high output option. From July this year even the V8 will be blown. I'm not suggusting that Holden don't have some great cool options as well, clearly they do but unless you want a big car, big cube, low-tech V8 you'll have trouble finding decent performance alternatives with a Holden badge on it.

Colville

Stattic · 22-03-2010, 01:49 PM

Ouch. I'm gonna go jump off a bridge after reading that lol

Reaper8 · 22-03-2010, 01:58 PM

Ford america are to scared to alow falcon into the market as they would loose to much sales from there car's but it should be allowed imagine how many falcons would sell over there. would definately turn a profit for ford aus.

InTrail · 22-03-2010, 02:10 PM

Having just had a Holden Cruze as a hire car for the last six days, I feel abject pity for those that actually spend money on such a product.

Maybe Ford should use these crap box Holden 4cylinders as courtesy cars - that would at least ensure current customers don't turn Red.