US says Joint Strike Fighter is unaffordable

[Road_Warrior]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...20/3222259.htm

The Federal Government has denied a blowout in costs for the US-built F-35 joint strike fighter will affect Australia's mass purchase of the warplane.

The Government has placed a tentative order for 100 of the stealth aircraft to replace its ageing fleet of less capable F/A-18 Hornets and the now retired F-111 fighter-bomber.

But overnight a US senate committee heard the latest cost estimate - which has nearly doubled from initial targets - would make the fleet of warplanes unaffordable.

The Pentagon's top weapons buyer, acquisition chief Ashton Carter, said the program currently has "an unacceptably high acquisition bill".

The cost of each aircraft in the US has ballooned from US$69 million ($64.7 million) to US$103 million, and the project has been dogged by ongoing design and development flaws.

A spokesman for Defence Minister Stephen Smith says the US senate review is "standard stuff" and the cost per unit will be lower as the program goes on.

But he said the cost of the initial 14 planes, at a cost of $3.2 billion or $228 million per aircraft, was a necessary cost to buy early-build units so pilots could be trained on the advanced fighter-bomber.

He said the balance of the order would be from aircraft made later in the production cycle when prices would be lower.

However a report from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute says delays in the F-35 are a bigger concern than the cost.

The defence and security think tank says the RAAF may have to wait a further seven years before the joint strike fighter enters service - six years after delivery was originally scheduled.

The Defence Minister's spokesman conceded most of the aircraft should arrive "in 2018 and 2019".

The Howard government ordered 24 off-the-shelf F/A-18F Super Hornets to serve as an interim multi-role fighter pending the arrival of the F-35 - a purchase at the time opposed by the RAAF.

To hedge against the prospect of further delays to the JSF program, the Gillard Government should buy more Super Hornets, the report said.

FAIL.

$228 Million per aircraft for the first 14 airframes when we could have piggybacked onto the current production run of the F-22 Raptor at a unit cost of US $177 Million!! Perhaps a few more of those Super Hornets wouldn't be a bad idea right now...

[DJR-351]

Got me buggered why have to constantly link ourselves to the US when it comes to this stuff.......

[anto]

isnt the f22 being axed ?

DJR, where else would we get that kind of technology ? As a tax payer Im happy that we are trying to stay one step ahead of potential foes with this kind of stuff

[GS608]

Originally Posted by anto

isnt the f22 being axed ?

DJR, where else would we get that kind of technology ? As a tax payer Im happy that we are trying to stay one step ahead of potential foes with this kind of stuff

What about the Eurofighter? They're roughly 90m euro per unit

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by anto

isnt the f22 being axed ?

DJR, where else would we get that kind of technology ? As a tax payer Im happy that we are trying to stay one step ahead of potential foes with this kind of stuff

the F22 hasnt been axed....

as a tax payer what you should be worried about is that the JSF doesnt represent value for money. Especially when the aircraft is not suited to our needs.

[BLU-DVL]

F22 is and/or never was an option...
No matter how good the relationship.... F22 was never! for sale..
The yanks just wouldn't do it!

[Jim Goose]

I cant remember the orginal name of the program (I think it was AIR2000), but orginally as far back as 1998 request for tenders were called to meet the RAAFs requirements to orginally just replace the F18. A short list of 4 aircraft was announced in 2000, this included (from memory, id have to look all this up again) the french Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon, an upgraded version of the F15 strike eagle and the Ukrainian (russian) SU-30 series of long range fighters. The Ukranians even offered Australia a licence to make them here and set up a factory etc.

The Lockheed Martin F35 WAS NEVER OFFERED to Australia. It never submitted anything.
At the time it wasnt even flying.. it was a "paper" aeroplane. A computer design!
A prototype had not even been built.

Suddenly defence drops the RFT and announces that it has bought into the program (paying a $100Million nonrefundable) as a 3rd teir? partner or some such rubbish.
That money was just to buy into the program, its not a deposit or a commitment to buy.

Defence and the Federal Government all come under the same procurement guidelines. There is federal legislation about large procurement and clearly this whole program did not follow any of the guidelines, unlike the orginal procurement for the F18 (back in the 1980s) as an example in which the F18 and F16 were short listed. The reason the F16 was never chosen was because it was a single engine fighter.

Now suddenly a single engine fighter is acceptable again?
Ask a pilot how safe he feels flying over the ocean in a single engine plane and he will tell you he simply would prefer not to do it.

Several other points come to mind to:
The F35 is noisier then a twin engine F15, so i can see many noise complaints appearing.
The F35 is not a front line fighter, it is for all purposes a CAS (Close Air Support) plane.
Yes it has marvelous technology but its weapons bay it too small to carry a large amount of ordanance.
It will carry just two large bombs (JADM) and 2 short range AIM132 air to air missiles.
This is hardly worthwhile bang for your buck!
But defence will argue... the JSF has 4 wing hard points to carry more payload.
Great... but once you put bombs on the wings the plane is no longer "stealthy" and may as well be just another F18.

The other problem was that in an effort to save money Lockheed Martin has NOT cleared the JSF for external fuel tanks.
This means it will need tanker support... again, you give away your position because you have a large slow fuel tanker flying around along the route to support the "stealthy" plane.

Battle damage repair is also a problem, because of the aircrafts composite materials it will be almost impossible to repair the plane out in the field should it get even minor damage to its skin.
The USAF is having this problem with its stealthy F22 fighter now.

The RAAF is now again facing the possibility of leasing more "stop gap" fighters because the F18 is due for retirement in about 3yrs and the JSF still wont be in service in the USA.
What happens when there is a problem discovered with the aircraft? The whole fleet is grounded.
As with most new products there will be at least a few yrs where issues will crop up and ground these new birds.
What then for the RAAF? No fighter at all if we are to go and replace both the Super hornet and F18 with one aircraft type and suddenly its grounded due to a fault.

As an example... when the F22 fighter flew its first overseas deployment they had to abort the flight and return to the USA.
They were being flown from the USA to JAPAN (2008 i think), when the aircraft reached the international dateline the computers crashed as it didnt know what to do about changing the time/ date! The fleet was grounded and its software rewritten...

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by BLU-DVL

F22 is and/or never was an option...
No matter how good the relationship.... F22 was never! for sale..
The yanks just wouldn't do it!

See below from Wiki

Some Australian politicians and defense commentators have proposed that Australia should purchase F-22s instead of the F-35.[39][40] In 2006, the Australian Labor Party supported this proposal on the grounds that the F-22 is a proven, highly capable aircraft, while the F-35 is still under development.[41] However, Australia's Howard government ruled out purchase of the F-22, on the grounds that it is unlikely to be released for export, and does not have sufficient ground/maritime strike capacity.[42] The following year, the Australian government ordered a review of plans to procure the F-35 and F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. This review will include an evaluation of the F-22's suitability for Australia; moreover, the then Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon stated: "I intend to pursue American politicians for access to the Raptor".[43] In February 2008, U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said he had no objection to sale of the Raptor to Australia, but Congress would have to change the law.[44]

The 2010 defense authorization bill was signed on 28 October 2009, included provisions requiring the DoD to prepare a report on the costs and feasibility for an F-22 export variant and another report on the impact of F-22 export sales on the U.S. aerospace industry.[45][46]

[flappist]

Why don't we just give the septics a big lump of land up north to stick a USAF base?

If Australia gets attacked we are duck poop without them anyway. There was once a time when every young man in this country was familiar with firearms and many owned them privately along with a stock of ammo and some bush gear.

Now the best we can hope for is to unfriend them on facebook then SMS their commanders with !!!1!!!!!!11!1!! and then finally plank a tank.......

[Jim Goose]

The F22 isnt suited either as its a pure defence fighter.
We need a mulitrole aircraft, preferably running two types of aircraft.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by flappist

Why don't we just give the septics a big lump of land up north to stick a USAF base?

If Australia gets attacked we are duck poop without them anyway. There was once a time when every young man in this country was familiar with firearms and many owned them privately along with a stock of ammo and some bush gear.

Now the best we can hope for is to unfriend them on facebook then SMS their commanders with !!!1!!!!!!11!1!! and then finally plank a tank.......

you have never dealt with american military types have you?
or seen them in action in town when on leave?
no way in hell would a yank base be welcomed here.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

you have never dealt with american military types have you?
or seen them in action in town when on leave?
no way in hell would a yank base be welcomed here.

Yeh you are right. How about a Chinese or Indian or Pakastani or whatever base?

Goose, do you think you are the only person on AFF who has some military interaction in their history?

But as you don't ever want to tell anyone who you are or what you do or have done for a living why should anyone believe anything you say?

[Jim Goose]

I am talking as member of the australian public.... and i have no idea what your background is? do you want introductions?

Townsville is full of soldiers.... soon to be much more.
Everytime there is a joint exersize here there are dramas with the behavour of the visiting marines or whoever they are.

Attempted murders, glassing, drugs, cops being king hit from behind, really appalling driving, unwanted pregnancies and the usual punch ups.

Why on earth would you mention Chinese or Paki or Indian?
(Who would want them here here either?)

And why on earth would my background make a difference?
I dont see other people on here telling you who they are or what they do?
Everyone is entittled to an opinion, its a free (supposedly) country.

A particular US base in Japan was closed recenlty... due to what the Americans call "cultural differences".... you work it out.

the discussion is about the JSF.

[tweeked]

No real issue here - if it is delayed much longer and with the $AU murdering the greenback we will pick them up for the same price as a Hyundai Getz with Auto and Air.

[anto]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

the F22 hasnt been axed....

as a tax payer what you should be worried about is that the JSF doesnt represent value for money. Especially when the aircraft is not suited to our needs.

not based on our needs? says who ..? I would imagine the top brass in the military are more than capable of making that judgment call.

as for the euro,...we arent buying cars here. I'd throw my lot in with the US any day of the week.

[DJL351]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Attempted murders, glassing, drugs, cops being king hit from behind, really appalling driving, unwanted pregnancies and the usual punch ups.

Sounds like a normal Friday night here in Northbridge....

The 35 was/is a white elephant. The 22 regardless if it was 'available' to us or not is not better suited.
Our conditions and requirements are very different to most Air Forces.
Locating a twin engined, large internal tanked, multi-roled, multi payload aircraft may not be as easy as it sounds.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by anto

not based on our needs? says who ..? I would imagine the top brass in the military are more than capable of making that judgment call.

as for the euro,...we arent buying cars here. I'd throw my lot in with the US any day of the week.

Nah, Goose knows Maverick very well......................

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by anto

DJR, where else would we get that kind of technology ? As a tax payer Im happy that we are trying to stay one step ahead of potential foes with this kind of stuff

My point being, unless we are going head to head with a "foe" already equipped with this technology (who has it ?) it's a pointless expensive exercise for Aus...
There are other of the shelf options available today that are quite adequate for our immediate needs, the bloody thing will probably be obsolete before we ever see one unless it is constantly evolving in which case it will never be finished....

But i suppose we could always email any potential foes to hang on for another 7 years or so as we are not ready for a bit of biffo yet....

The only ones profiting out of this are those doing the lobbying and Lockheed Martin execs....

My 2c worth....

[Charliewool]

Why don't we build our own??
Ohh, forgot, Gov Aircraft Factory, Gov Ordnance Factory, Naval Dockyard and Ammos all gone.. Privatised and sold off.
Ok, well maybe use those big, soon to be empty, tumble-weed strewn factories down Geelong and out at Broady then?
In all seriousness though, it's a bloody disgrace... We HAD the expertise, We HAD the technology, We HAD the skilled manpower, We HAD the dedicated factories to produce stuff like this!
And we USED to! In fact, we led the world in some of these areas!
Ikara Missile anyone? Turana Drone?? Even the trusty Bushmaster.
Why don't we just swap a few tonne of coal for 50 Great Wall swing wing fighters or 50 Ssang Yong bombers?

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

Why don't we build our own??
Ohh, forgot, Gov Aircraft Factory, Gov Ordnance Factory, Naval Dockyard and Ammos all gone.. Privatised and sold off.
Ok, well maybe use those big, soon to be empty, tumble-weed strewn factories down Geelong and out at Broady then?
In all seriousness though, it's a bloody disgrace... We HAD the expertise, We HAD the technology, We HAD the skilled manpower, We HAD the dedicated factories to produce stuff like this!
And we USED to! In fact, we led the world in some of these areas!
Ikara Missile anyone? Turana Drone?? Even the trusty Bushmaster.
Why don't we just swap a few tonne of coal for 50 Great Wall swing wing fighters or 50 Ssang Yong bombers?

What are you on about? We still make Bushmasters and made all (but the first few) F/A-18 Hornets in Australia. And the Tiger attack helicopter we are making here. We made all the ANZAC frigates and Collins Class Submarines here, all of which are undergoing updates right here. In fact, the ANZAC Frigate Warfighting Improvement Project is giving the frigates almost as much firepower as a US Arleigh-Burke Class Destroyer:

[SEZ213]

Why not just update the F1-11?

Twin engine, awesome piece of machinery...spend the coin on updating, as opposed to bringing in more planes that will get decommissioned and live out their last days turning to rust...

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

....Collins Class Submarines here, all of which are undergoing updates right here.

....ah but

1. How much did they eventually cost, and how long did it take to get one of them fully operational...?
2. Not enough crews to man them, last i heard they had barely enough to operate half the fleet...!
3. Now the Navy don't want them anymore and want some new ones...!?!?

....but you are right, they were built here....

Sorry for the off topic...

[Peuty]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Why not just update the F1-11?

Twin engine, awesome piece of machinery...spend the coin on updating, as opposed to bringing in more planes that will get decommissioned and live out their last days turning to rust...

Unfortunately the only chance of that happening is if General Dynamics makes us some more, as the current ones are already being dismantled. Oh and GD don't have an aircraft division anymore!

Also, As far as I am aware, all the F22 tooling has been destroyed.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

Why not just update the F1-11?

Twin engine, awesome piece of machinery...spend the coin on updating, as opposed to bringing in more planes that will get decommissioned and live out their last days turning to rust...

From an e-book i have...

....Survivability is however the ultimate constraint in this game, and that will determine the point in time when the F-111 becomes operationally non-viable, even if it remains systems-wise supportable and structurally sound.

Here is however where the issue does become more complex. When the F-111 was designed, during the early sixties, it was optimised as a single penetrator, an aircraft designed to penetrate deep into hostile airspace individually, without escorts and evade fighters and surface air defences using high speed persistence, onboard jammers and terrain masking. The much larger B-1A was designed around the very same model, indeed it used various avionic items designed for the F-111. Until the deployment of the S-300P/PMU (SA-10/20) and S-300V (SA-12) family of SAMs, the A-50 AWACS and the look-down/shoot-down capable Su-27P and MiG-29 fighters, the F-111 was unstoppable by any Soviet IADS. The pulse Doppler radar technology in these AWACS, missile and fighter radars has however eroded the survivability of the unescorted F-111....

....basically there are too many more advanced nasties out there now that could effortlessly swat the beloved F-111 out of the sky.....

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

....ah but

1. How much did they eventually cost, and how long did it take to get one of them fully operational...?
2. Not enough crews to man them, last i heard they had barely enough to operate half the fleet...!
3. Now the Navy don't want them anymore and want some new ones...!?!?

....but you are right, they were built here....

Sorry for the off topic...

They eventually cost $1bn each and took years to deliver, but the capability gap is caused by manpower shortages, not the subs. And the Navy has started planning now for new subs in time for when the Collins are at the end of their service lives, which is standard procedure for replacing assets which are subject to such high psychical and operational stresses as submarines. And yes, the replacements will more than likely be built here.

[Jim Goose]

The F111 has already been retired months ago sezzy.
No longer an option.

not based on our needs? says who ..? I would imagine the top brass in the military are more than capable of making that judgment call.

er umm.. gees what can one say to a comment like that.
you better do some research into how much money defence blows per annum because the socalled experts are in charge and dont care about tax payers money..

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by DJL351

Sounds like a normal Friday night here in Northbridge....

The 35 was/is a white elephant. The 22 regardless if it was 'available' to us or not is not better suited.
Our conditions and requirements are very different to most Air Forces.
Locating a twin engined, large internal tanked, multi-roled, multi payload aircraft may not be as easy as it sounds.

The Super Hornet has got longer range than the orginal model Hornet and is not as bad as everyone makes out. Bigger payload, 2seats, 2 engines..

The only other option (and politically would never happen) is the Ukranian SU-30 series of fighters. They were as I stated earlier offered to Australia in the orginal tender process (with western avionics, but id imagine intergration would be an issue).

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Peuty

Unfortunately the only chance of that happening is if General Dynamics makes us some more, as the current ones are already being dismantled. Oh and GD don't have an aircraft division anymore!

Also, Asgard as I am aware, all the F22 tooling has been destroyed.

They're still rolling out F22's, they have attrition and spares requirements. Each time the next F35 schedule isn't met, then they reluctantly build a few more F22's.

As far as Australia buying F22's, I recall US Defense Secretary was quoted "no one from Australia has officially approached the USA regarding purchase of the F22, and if Australia did, then we (USA) would consider the request..."

The mission is to fly from Tindall to some place 3000km away, bomb the place and safely return (round trip 6000km), so what options are available?

F18 Super Hornet
Tornado
Eurofighter
Mirage 2000
F15

Lets face it, there aren't that many options available from "friendly" countries.

The F111 was great plane for just such a mission.

[FCleader]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

I am talking as member of the australian public.... and i have no idea what your background is? do you want introductions?

Townsville is full of soldiers.... soon to be much more.
Everytime there is a joint exersize here there are dramas with the behavour of the visiting marines or whoever they are. Or seen anything like this while on Flinders street.

Attempted murders, glassing, drugs, cops being king hit from behind, really appalling driving, unwanted pregnancies and the usual punch ups.

Not having a go at you but I am curious as to whether or not you work in emergency services or defence, as I grew up in Townsville and only recently moved to Brisbane this year and I've never heard of anything that bad when the yanks came to town.

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

A particular US base in Japan was closed recenlty... due to what the Americans call "cultural differences".... you work it out.

I have heard those 'cultural difference' include US marines raping girls as young as 14. Although this is heresay.

Back on topic, the JSF is a bit of a joke some more super hornets and updated F-15s would be a much better choice.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by cheap

They're still rolling out F22's, they have attrition and spares requirements. Each time the next F35 schedule isn't met, then they reluctantly build a few more F22's.

As far as Australia buying F22's, I recall US Defense Secretary was quoted "no one from Australia has officially approached the USA regarding purchase of the F22, and if Australia did, then we (USA) would consider the request..."

The mission is to fly from Tindall to some place 3000km away, bomb the place and safely return (round trip 6000km), so what options are available?

F18 Super Hornet
Tornado
Eurofighter
Mirage 2000
F15

Lets face it, there aren't that many options available from "friendly" countries.

The F111 was great plane for just such a mission.

There is no more funding for any F22s since 2010 financial year.
The US cut its budget to only 187 fighters well under the orginal figure which was over 240.

MARIETTA, Ga., September 14th, 2010 -- Lockheed Martin [NYSE: LMT] continues to meet and exceed the production and delivery schedule for the F-22 Raptor, with 86 straight aircraft delivered on or ahead of schedule to the U.S. Air Force. To date, the company has delivered 166 production F-22s, including 13 this year

The final lot of F22s will be delivered this year...