Holden means a great deal to China

AWD Chaser · 13-11-2006, 09:16 PM

I was flicking through the latest copy of Motor, and it said that the new VE Commodore Statesman (WM?) (and maybe Caprice) models will be built in China? Me thinks that this would be the trial point for offshoring for Holden... anyways, I don't think that this is a good deal for Australia...

Redrum · 13-11-2006, 09:17 PM

I have heard this will be happening also. If true, will be sad, more manufacturing jobs going overseas. A bleak future.

**Polyal** · 13-11-2006, 09:21 PM

Sucks but thats life unfortunately. They will make it for less and probably have the same build quality.

Danny · 13-11-2006, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

They will make it for less and probably have the same build quality.

Is that meant to be a joke?

LukeyBAXR6 · 13-11-2006, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

Is that meant to be a joke?

LOL at China having anywhere near the same quality.

Outbackjack · 13-11-2006, 09:27 PM

It wont matter how cheap the car is if there is no-one left in Australia with a meaningfull enough job to be able to afford one...... "Holden. Made in China" The best sales slogan Ford could ever have.

LUXO_8 · 13-11-2006, 09:31 PM

AFAIK statesmans are already built in china?? at least thats what i read the plan was

AWD Chaser · 13-11-2006, 09:32 PM

Buy a Holden - engine blows - ring up Indian Holden call center - (in Indian accent) "I'm sorry sir, but you will have to return the car to our Manufacturing Plant in China to have your particular problem fixed"! lol...

**Polyal** · 13-11-2006, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

Is that meant to be a joke?

No why?

The Chinese built car wasn't so much a lack of build quality, it was probably design failure.

Obviously I don't know for sure, but its really not that hard to manufacturer something in another country. GM/Ford would make sure that it meets standards.

Right now the vast majority of things we buy are "Made in China", all multinationals do it.

I don't think you will ever see a car designed and developed in China (I hope not), but manufacturing is very possible and will happen.

Its only in the past few years that Hyundai could be taken seriously, it takes time to develop those skills.

Hally · 13-11-2006, 09:38 PM

GM has a joint venture in China with a local manufacturer. The cars will be built in Chinaand badged as Buicks. Called the Royam if I recall correctly.

Transit Truck · 13-11-2006, 09:57 PM

The build quality will never be the same because the chinese steel manufacturing plants are cheap as well.... It all starts from the raw materials. If they are not as good, the product made by them will be rubbish too.

Bill_R · 13-11-2006, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akiklovich

It all starts from the raw materials. If they are not as good, the product made by them will be rubbish too.

You mean the raw materials they get from us and ship back as steel that we once produced ourselves?

they might have issues for a whiel but I expect build quality to be up on cars built in China. The excpetion might be Chinese designed and built cars for markets in Idnia and China that are intended to be "cheap".

dogbreath_48 · 13-11-2006, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

No why?

The Chinese built car wasn't so much a lack of build quality, it was probably design failure.

Obviously I don't know for sure, but its really not that hard to manufacturer something in another country. GM/Ford would make sure that it meets standards.

Right now the vast majority of things we buy are "Made in China", all multinationals do it.

I don't think you will ever see a car designed and developed in China (I hope not), but manufacturing is very possible and will happen.

Its only in the past few years that Hyundai could be taken seriously, it takes time to develop those skills.

I can't be certain, but i believe some toyota's and ARB gear (among PLENTY of other manufacturers) are made in thailand - still at very high quality. Can't see why the chinese couldn't do the same if they follow the manufacturers philosophies.

That's not to say this is a good thing. It's a very, very bad thing.

new2ford · 13-11-2006, 10:53 PM

Hate to say this but, like many (most?) other global products, 'western' cars are already manufactured in China under joint ventures and to the international product quality standard. Apart from GM there is also VW, Skoda, Toyota, Mazda just to name some. Quality won't be the issue. It will be the loss of Australian jobs and manufacturing capabilities that is. Within ten years I'd say the locally designed Chinese cars will have caught up also so its not the joke it seems. People thought Japanese cars were funny and terrible (they were) back in the 1960s but they were loaded with 'extras' and it went from there.

Outbackjack · 13-11-2006, 11:02 PM

I think that the main point here is the fact that even more Ozzie manafacturing jobs look like going over seas. Perhaps someone could please explain to me how this is a good thing. How the hell will holden "the aussie icon" ever live down being biult in China??

I know that most here on this forum would not go out of their way to buy a holden, but how many more Australians will be thinking the same thing. As long as we all purely buy on ticket price there is no hope for the future of our kids and country.... Are we patriotic enough to turn our backs on this kind of business pratice??

Anyway. I dont reckon that it will happen. Perhaps holden have some AWA negotiations coming up and are putting fear into their workers.

ck11 · 13-11-2006, 11:18 PM

Australia cannot compete with countries in manufacturing (unless it is skilled engineering), simple as that. It is inevitable that our car industry will close, especially with foreign cars flooding the market (and traffic increasing to the point where family cars arent as attractive for city driving as they used to be).

In a few decades China wont be able to compete with other countries on labour either and manufacturing will move from China.

The best way to secure future of workers in Australia is skilled engineering/manufacturing, which would mean retrain workers and strong education. You cannot compete with other countries on labour. As people said Honda, toyota etc are already built in thailand (with good build quality) and a lot of car companies that were based in Germany are now manufacturing in countries such as ukraine and romania. Workers there work longer, for a cheaper rate and are more flexible in terms of shifts and training programmes.

There were a few interesting articles in some Business magazine .

Bill_R · 13-11-2006, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ck11

... Workers there work longer, for a cheaper rate and are more flexible in terms of shifts and training programmes.
.....

and to go along with your point about it moving on from China after x years - it's usually the case that workers wages catch up and they change to elsewhere that is in economic developement.
I'm not sure how the substantial tooling costs would factor in for cars. You'd need a very long-term commitment, the ability to pack up and go or design for limited life-cycle.

csv8 · 13-11-2006, 11:35 PM

Seen the SSANG YONG Chairman ?? Thats a Statesman !!!!!!!!!!
Also Ford build the Fiesta in India, but it is for the Indian market only. But for how long ???

GTjake · 13-11-2006, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akiklovich

The build quality will never be the same because the chinese steel manufacturing plants are cheap as well.... It all starts from the raw materials. If they are not as good, the product made by them will be rubbish too.

Chinese steel contains a hell of a lot of scrap. Including alot from decommissioned ships of suspect build.
Not only that, but quality control as far as monitoring what grades / alloys go into the melt is very very poor.
Hence the steel is $h!t and varies too much in spec.
Illiterate peasants using reject machinery making steel to compare with Japan, Aus or the US? Dont f'n think so!

BUT, it's cheap so who cares right?

Outbackjack · 13-11-2006, 11:45 PM

As I have said before, when China becomes too expensive, it will be off to Africa for the big corporations. But buy then China will for a short time be the only country buying the products.... Countries like Australia and new Zealand, Pommy land will be third party product users.... At least some will be. If everything goes over seas and it is, exactly what does Australia have left to offer???

I bet most here dont know about the CA15..... It was a aeroplane. A single seat, single engine fighter. The prototype flew in 1945. Big deal you all say, who cares!! Well we should all care. Look at this in perspective. This aircraft was concieved, designed and biult in...... Australia. On its second or third test flight (cant remember which) it broke the record for straight and level flight (it was done over Melbourne). You would think that from there Australia could have biult a viable hi tech aircraft industry. But no. The government decided that our british masters knew best and we should buy british. The war ended as well, which didn't help. Now I am sorry for waffling but I just wanted to get a point across about how this country is going backwards.
BTW, no-one has been able to tell me what will happen when the resources boom collapses..... MO is probably correct, depression.

http://www.dropbears.com/f/felix_noble/ca15.htm

The people of this country could do wonderful things if we had a government that could see past the next election.

new2ford · 13-11-2006, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_R

and to go along with your point about it moving on from China after x years - it's usually the case that workers wages catch up and they change to elsewhere that is in economic developement.

One thing we might be overlooking here is that China is a communist country with a controlled economy and not subject to the same market forces - even though a form of controlled capitalism is practised where it suits them. I don't think they'll allow their competitive advantage to be lost. They'll be with us for a very long time.

The check that does operate to prevent the Australian industry going down the drain (at least in the immediate future) is whatever interest the Commonwealth Govt has in retaining a local heavy industry capacity and how vulnerable we are without it. Otherwise what we are turning to is our intellectual capital. For example the design of world cars in Australia, an area of expertise we have recognised capability in.

csv8 · 13-11-2006, 11:48 PM

Australia also invented the black box flight recorder, Owen Gun, the Ute (Ford), Pavlova, Lamington, etc etc

13-11-2006, 11:50 PM

On a related note, I'd rather a Philippine made Ford Focus (which exports to the rest of S.E Asia) over a South African made one.

Talking to relos over there, they don't have the fit and finish problems the SA ones we get here seem to have. Ford actually topped a customer satisfaction survey for new cars in the Philippines. Average time from ordering to delivery is 3.5 days FYI.

There are very little differences between parts of a Euro made focus and the SA made focus (one is headlight lens glue is more suited to hot weather), but workmanship can make all the difference in how the customer will feel how quality a car is.

If Holden do go down this path, and it may be inevidible for the rest of local car manufactuing divisions, the 2 main factors will be keeping up with demand (in both parts needed and cars exported) and workmanship quality.

My rambling 2c

repsol · 14-11-2006, 12:44 AM

the barina for example take a car that wasnt selling well here rebadge it to holden barina and up the price and it is selling,i would however like to see the sales figures of the previous model and compare.

Rep

XR Martin · 14-11-2006, 01:04 AM

Again, people jumping to conclusions before knowing the facts.
They will be built here, as 'complete knock down' units, like how alot of cars came here in the 50s, 60s and 70s.
Basically all the parts will be sent to China, and they just assemble it. Can fit alot more units on the ship that way.

XR Martin · 14-11-2006, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

Seen the SSANG YONG Chairman ?? Thats a Statesman !!!!!!!!!!

No its not, its a two generation old E-Class Merc

Jayden · 14-11-2006, 01:18 AM

i would prefer having a car built in Australia, thats for sure.
Cheaper it may be to use chinese labour, but its just plain wrong to f* Australian workers to save a few bucks, Id refuse to buy fords too if they started building in china. Not to mention that the quality would be quite suspect, I have no doubts about that.

BeStRaFe · 14-11-2006, 01:21 AM

whats wrong with china....

i worked at a driveshaft place in sydney...

the quality was GREAT..

it only took them 6 batches to actually get it right

holden GO and use china...and watch your warranty claims go through the roof....
look at the chinease cars that are already in europe

XR Martin · 14-11-2006, 01:30 AM

How are they ******* over Australian workers? The way I see it is that they are creating Aussie workers with this deal. Holden exports are only going to rise with this, more cars, whether they be complete or not, means more jobs here.
Last time I looked Ford was the only one cutting jobs. :rolleyes:
Its not like they were exporting complete WMs and suddenly decided to change to just exporting the parts, this is a new deal, meaning more jobs, not less.

Hally · 14-11-2006, 07:49 AM

I think people are under the mis-conception that the Chinese made cars are going to be sent back to Australia. It is not the case, the cars are for local Chinese/Asia consumption. As some-one else said, unlikely to effect Aussie jobs negatively.