Hypothetical-would Ford be in better position if it had FG wagon instead of Territory

Resurrection · 25-04-2013, 10:21 AM

A FG wagon with EcoLPI would have been a fantastic fleet seller. All the benefits of the EcoLPI sedan but no issues with luggage space. The previous Egas wagon comfortably outsold the Egas sedan.

But would the FG wagon have sold more than the Territory?

Yellow_Festiva · 25-04-2013, 10:54 AM

Doubt it, actually... no way. The Territory was / is a huge success. It was made to meet the needs of the market and did so very well.

Which is also why the wagon wasn't continued. Sales were probably on the decline and there wasn't justification to invest X hundreds of millions of dollars to develop a product that had declining demand.

I wonder.... would a dropped Territory with only RWD have worked as a wagon substitute???

arronm · 25-04-2013, 11:05 AM

Doesnt really matter anymore ford dont have a station wagon any more. So now the obvious choice is sportwagon. The taxi guys would have driven a few of the FG wagons. You cant compare a territory to a wagon. To me a territory is like a landcruiser and a wagon is similar to a sedan, And yes I have driven one. The rear section is to small and to high.

Anyrate even if ford had a wagon I may still may have bought the sportwagon, its so good and by the numbers on the road in WA a great success.

How many of those car are lost ford sales?

SumoDog68 · 25-04-2013, 11:15 AM

I don't know if it would of made a difference to Ford bottom line but I would buy one. XR6t wagon auto in white.

Smoke Pursuit · 25-04-2013, 11:21 AM

No way....

They sold about 400 Egas wagons a month back in the hay day... To be honest the only people who still probably would have bought them are the Taxi's, Telstra and possibly the police. Alot companies with sales reps put them in odd ball cars now days to try and make some sort of statement, e.g. Tupperware use Territory's because they allign with their family values.

Resurrection · 25-04-2013, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arronm

Doesnt really matter anymore ford dont have a station wagon any more.

That is why it is a hypothetical question.

Auslandau · 25-04-2013, 11:39 AM

No way ..... the Terri outsells Falcon, never did the wagon outsell the sedan. The fact is SUV's are more popular than wagons in these times. Many companies I know have them for company cars as opposed to the useless Sportswagon and seen many Terry taxi's running around

SumoDog68 · 25-04-2013, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DASH GT

No way....

They sold about 400 Egas wagons a month back in the hay day... To be honest the only people who still probably would have bought them are the Taxi's, Telstra and possibly the police. Alot companies with sales reps put them in odd ball cars now days to try and make some sort of statement, e.g. Tupperware use Territory's because they allign with their family values.

Falcon wagon in BF and earlier was a boxy load Luger not a sports wagon in euro mould. Holden changed tack and went the sports route and it partially worked.

Brazen · 25-04-2013, 11:42 AM

The biggest selling Falcon variant when the wagon was around was the XT wagon.

They are better off with Territory as it diversifies the manufacturing base a bit. Ironically the Holden Sportwagon has outsold the Territory most years - but probably not this year.

I guess you got to weigh up the costs involved in having separate cars, the Territory doesn't share that much with Falcon at the moment so it is an expensive exercise to update both cars separately.

I think the bigger issue is Ford not utilising Territory as much as it should, a RTV spec and XR6 spec could add hundreds of units a month.

Rusty62 · 25-04-2013, 11:44 AM

I was surprised to find out the Terry is SWB same as Falcon. I would have thought they should be LWB same as the wagon, IMO that would make them even better than they already are.

gtxb67 · 25-04-2013, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auslandau

No way ..... the Terri outsells Falcon, never did the wagon outsell the sedan

please dave, no common sense

arronm · 25-04-2013, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auslandau

No way ..... the Terri outsells Falcon, never did the wagon outsell the sedan. The fact is SUV's are more popular than wagons in these times. Many companies I know have them for company cars as opposed to the useless Sportswagon and seen many Terry taxi's running around

"Useless sportwagon" does everything I need. At least I dont drive a box on wheels.

And if the sportwagon was so useless why has holden made a VF model.

That was a stupid comment.

gtxb67 · 25-04-2013, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arronm

"Useless sportwagon" does everything I need. At least I dont drive a box on wheels.

And if the sportwagon was so useless why has holden made a VF model.

That was a stupid comment.

i see both your points
to me they are useless (compared to our rav4), but no doubt they have some advantages over a commode dore sedan
they do look sportier than a sedan which no doubt helps as well, but holden fans and people pretending to be patriotic will buy anything

not all the commode dore hatch buyers are sheep, but many would be (between 10% and 90% will be the sheep)

Rodge · 25-04-2013, 12:03 PM

No. I reckon the Falcon wouldn't still be in production without the Territory which appears to have higher profits per unit.

**Bluehoon** · 25-04-2013, 12:09 PM

As a base fleet hack and taxi spec, the lpg wagon works. As a concept, idea it has merit.

However that segment is a limited market and IMO rubbishes a premium brand being built by ford.
They don't want to be known as the taxi company and are trying to remove that stigma.
The territory is far more modern, purposeful and meet what consumers want. A wagon does not.

In Sydney Taxi's are turning to Camry's of all sorts as the Bf series start disappearing off the ranks.

Assessing where Ford want to be and what they want to sell, dropping the wagon made sense, regardless of sales.

BDA074 · 25-04-2013, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auslandau

No way ..... the Terri outsells Falcon, never did the wagon outsell the sedan. The fact is SUV's are more popular than wagons in these times.

+1 nothing more needed to be said...

arronm · 25-04-2013, 12:34 PM

This is the problem.

"Of the 97,400 cars sold in Australia last month (march 2013, just 3.5 percent, or 3418 sedans, wagons and utes, were the ‘traditional Aussie family car’ carrying a Ford or Holden badge on the nose."

jpd80 · 25-04-2013, 12:47 PM

Some should check out Russell's technical Resources section, there's a lot of compelling evidence
to show that losses in large car market share have been almost directly replaced by a corresponding rise in
the popularity of small and medium SUVs. Had Ford not developed Territory, Falcon would be history by now.

**Gothefalcon** · 25-04-2013, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resurrection

That is why it is a hypothetical question.

It's been said before, that Ford dropped the Wagon so as not to steal sales away from the Territory... it's new baby (at the time)
I personally believe that the markets for a Falcon based Wagon and the Territory are two very different ones. In the past 12 months, as I've driven through most states of Aus... through large cities, country towns and outback "middle of nowhere" places in my AWD Falcon Wagon... many, many people have come up to me to tell me they would have bought a Wagon like mine, but would not buy a Territory. (&, like me, they don't want a Holden)
The Territory has been a huge success... so there's no doubt there is a market for it... But would it have been so successful if it was available in "taxi-pack" only, like the BF series Wagons ? I doubt it.
Holden's Sportwagon would not have been anywhere near as popular either, had it only been available in "taxi-pack", entry level, trim.
Had the Falcon Wagon range been expanded to mid & high series (as they used to be) but also included optional V8, Eco-LPI, Eco-boost, XR6/8, XR6T, "RTV" style & AWD versions... then I believe it would have remained as popular as it used to be (if not even more so)
A lot has been said about the cost to develop a new FG Wagon.. and even more so if it came in several different spec levels... but I"d pose this question too.... What has been the cost of NOT developing one ?? Perhaps the answer to this is partly the reason for the current sales slump ??
A mix of models & body styles can draw attention to the brand... which can draw people into showrooms for a look... which may result in a sale... which may result in more sales as friends and Family check out your "great new car"
(ie: you might have bought a G6ET Wagon... they might then go and buy an XR6 !??)

The Falcon Ute was also almost lost to us, as Ford decided not to develop an "E"series version.... instead continuing to sell the XF for much longer than it should have... slowly reducing versions/options down to one size fits all "taxi-pack" only... and it's death was near ! If it wasn't for a group of dedicated Ford Engineers who couldn't stand to lose the Falcon Ute... it would have been gone years ago ! Through updating the motor in XG... and then building a "cut n' shut" version in XH.. and expanding the range to appeal to a greater number of people... the Falcon Ute became more popular again... which bolstered the business case to develop an "all new" Ute with the AU range ! If what happened to the Ute, back then, proves anything here, it's this... If you stop giving people the option of buying what they want... they'll go and buy something else... but if you do provide a range of different options, it will appeal to many more people.. and they will once again buy the version that suits them best !

Something else to note :- Previous model ranges were all developed of the same platform... Falcon & Coupe off SWB, Ute, Van, Wagon & Fairlane off LWB (with a mix of LWB & extra-LWB for LTD, depending on model).... By XE it was Falcon SWB, Fairlane/LTD LWB, & Wagon, Ute & Van LWB (but different rear structure/suspension)... by AU it was Falcon SWB, Fairlane/LTD LWB, Wagon LWB (but different rear structure/suspension) & Ute extra-LWB (with a completely different rear structure)... and then add Territory into the mix, with a slightly different length wheel base again.... the costs of developing all these variations to the main architecture must be prohibitive !??
It seems Holden recognised this when they developed VE... so for economies of scale, they have basically gone back to 2 variations of the same platform with Sedan, Wagon, Ute off a LWB... and Statesman/Caprice off an extra LWB.
Given the correct resources... Ford Aus could re-align their thinking this way too.... even if it is with a new common "1 Ford" platform... and maybe... just maybe... we could see the return of a multi-model Falcon range !!??? (Holden has been there before too... and brought back the Ute & Statesman after a big break !)

These are just my thoughts... and I'm sure some will disagree with some of them... but as someone who has enjoyed owning many big Fords over the past 30 odd years... I hate seeing what's happening to Ford Oz & the Falcon range now.... and if it all disapears, I'd be very disapointed.. that's for sure !

D

FPV GTHO · 25-04-2013, 01:26 PM

There was quite some time though between Territory going on sale to Falcon wagon finally being dropped - 2004 to 2010 IIRC.

Theres also the fact that Holden had the Adventra, that despite sales performance elsewhere in the Commodore range, couldnt get anywhere near Territory sales.

ryeman · 25-04-2013, 01:54 PM

A leaf sprung solid axle for towing but that's the Ranger market.

bazza1000 · 25-04-2013, 01:57 PM

Hi, new to forum and only joined to check out peoples views of the territory. Having just had my xr6 stolen I thought a terry might be less stealable ( or not so popular to the crims ) so checked out all the views on this forum and decided on a new terry in emperor colour TS version and petrol powered 6 speed box. Basically the same as the facon in drivechain and colour.Off to Ford I go cash in hand and the nice salesman says yes I can have the car within two weeks, I had seen a thread on this forum warning you to put a clause in the contract enableing you to pull out if delivery date is not met so I mention this to him and he say's of course you can but there will be no problem but ok I will put it in so you are happy.I pay my deposit and off I go contract in hand and a very happy wife.NOW!!!! two days later the salesman rings me sorry sir no cars available except one in WA and it will cost you to much to transport over to QLD. Cost me I say is that not your problem, no of course not.So now I have the option to wait until its built approx. May30 and then a week or two to put the extras on or buy something else probably foreign like a santa fe. Now I thought in my stupidity that the car industry had too many cars and no buyers but I am obviously wrong. So people what would you do if you were me, bearing in mind my wife is ****ed off and I am getting a hard time over this. BAZZA

**Gothefalcon** · 25-04-2013, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

There was quite some time though between Territory going on sale to Falcon wagon finally being dropped - 2004 to 2010 IIRC.

Theres also the fact that Holden had the Adventra, that despite sales performance elsewhere in the Commodore range, couldnt get anywhere near Territory sales.

Good points... but Falcon Wagon sales actually picked up a bit, when Ford started saying it was going to drop it from the range.... Fleets (mainly, as it was only fairly base spec by now) moved to update their current vehicles, before Ford actually ceased production... which inturn, kept production going for a few years longer than intended... and even lead to the BF3 version (but unfortunately, not enough to warrant an "all new" FG)

The thing with Adventra, as I see it... It actually sold pretty well, until the Terry was released... then sales fell away. It was an AWD version of a pretty "old design" Wagon... which after about a year, was pitted against an "All new" SUV style vehicle ! SUV's were also seen as the latest greatest thing at the time... so, unfortunately for Holden... it was a bit of an unfair fight really ! Had it been a VE Wagon (& had Holden brought that out at the same time as the VE sedan)... then people might not of jumped ship quite so fast !!?? Maybe ?? For me... the V8 version was too thristy for an everyday car... and the V6 was too underpowered (with all the additional weight of the AWD)... and the Falcon's I6 falls smack in the middle of those... a wee bit thirsty at times... but powerfull enough to do whatever's asked of it. (I spose Terry is proof of that)

Subaru seems to do pretty well with it's Liberty/Outback Wagon.. and Tribeca (spelling) SUV.... Granted their Wagons are slightly smaller "mid range" vehicles... but what I'm saying here is, Subaru seem to recognise the Wagon & SUV segments as different markets... and provide for both !?? I would see perhaps, an AWD Falcon/Commodore Wagon as a larger chioce over, say, the Outback... and the Terry/Captiva up against the Tribeca (& everything else in that market segment

)

Just food for thought

D

**Gothefalcon** · 25-04-2013, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bazza1000

Hi, new to forum and only joined to check out peoples views of the territory. Having just had my xr6 stolen I thought a terry might be less stealable ( or not so popular to the crims ) so checked out all the views on this forum and decided on a new terry in emperor colour TS version and petrol powered 6 speed box. Basically the same as the facon in drivechain and colour.Off to Ford I go cash in hand and the nice salesman says yes I can have the car within two weeks, I had seen a thread on this forum warning you to put a clause in the contract enableing you to pull out if delivery date is not met so I mention this to him and he say's of course you can but there will be no problem but ok I will put it in so you are happy.I pay my deposit and off I go contract in hand and a very happy wife.NOW!!!! two days later the salesman rings me sorry sir no cars available except one in WA and it will cost you to much to transport over to QLD. Cost me I say is that not your problem, no of course not.So now I have the option to wait until its built approx. May30 and then a week or two to put the extras on or buy something else probably foreign like a santa fe. Now I thought in my stupidity that the car industry had too many cars and no buyers but I am obviously wrong. So people what would you do if you were me, bearing in mind my wife is ****ed off and I am getting a hard time over this. BAZZA

6 or 7 weeks is not all that long to wait for something you'll probably keep for years.... why would you compromise on something your going to use everyday, just because it took a few extra weeks to be delivered ? Also.. for me... if it supports the local industry... I'd wait how ever long it took !
That's just me... good luck with whatever you choose to do !

D

csv8 · 25-04-2013, 02:26 PM

Gothefalcon..thats why people buy other vehicles..no waiting period..Why wait 7 weeks when you can have it next day??? Looked at a Kia Sorrento ?? Ford must have limited build time if it takes 7 weeks..4 weeks would be reasonable??? Keep away from Great Wall etc etc..

AndyXR6T · 25-04-2013, 02:27 PM

I would buy a FG XR6T wagon or GS wagon in a heart beat. I think they would of been an awesome seller considering how many VE SS wagons you see getting around. But in saying this the Territory is in its own league not comparable to sedans/wagons so I think the option of either Territory or FG wagon should of been on the cards from ford

csv8 · 25-04-2013, 02:36 PM

bazza1000 ...don't know where you are but Jarvis Ford Adelaide have one .... from their website

Vehicle 2013 FORD TERRITORY SZ TS SEQ SPORT SHIFT RWD
Price $42,490 * Drive Away No More to Pay
Kilometres 0
Body 4 door 7 seat WAGON
Colour EMPEROR
Transmission 6 speed Sports Automatic
Drive type Rear
Engine 6 cylinder Premium Unleaded Multi-point injected
VIN 6FPAAAJGATDP30652
Stock # 798486

**Gothefalcon** · 25-04-2013, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by csv8

Gothefalcon..thats why people buy other vehicles..no waiting period..Why wait 7 weeks when you can have it next day??? Looked at a Kia Sorrento ?? Ford must have limited build time if it takes 7 weeks..4 weeks would be reasonable??? Keep away from Great Wall etc etc..

Not knowing the exact details of the Terry mentioned above... so leaving that aside... I'm sure if you wanted an "off the shelf" example... one could normally be sourced fairly quickly... and if you didn't want an "off the shelf" Kia Sorrento... but a "special order for you" version... how long does it take to get it here from OS ?? (only asking, as I don't know)

I must admit though.. I don't quite undersatand the "now society" either

Maybe it's just me... but I'd be prepared to wait for that time, so I could enjoy the vehicle of my choice, everyday there after... for years !??

Good things come to those who wait !

(or so I was led to believe !??)

D

PS: I wasn't bagging a Kia Sorento BTW... I was just noting that they'd already decided on buying a Terry.

And apologies to the OP.. this is a bit off topic

Auslandau · 25-04-2013, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arronm

"Useless sportwagon" does everything I need. At least I dont drive a box on wheels.

And if the sportwagon was so useless why has holden made a VF model.

That was a stupid comment.

As useless as a Ferrari would be. Might be wonderful for you. I am happy you are happy with it but Useless for me. I, as in me, do not need a Commodore Hatchback ..... do not need, like nor want. So please, don't get so precious.

Seriously though ..... of course VF is coming out in a sportswagon (as opposed to station wagon that has usable space) .... they don't have a Territory equivalent

atec77 · 25-04-2013, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Resurrection

A FG wagon with EcoLPI would have been a fantastic fleet seller. All the benefits of the EcoLPI sedan but no issues with luggage space. The previous Egas wagon comfortably outsold the Egas sedan.

But would the FG wagon have sold more than the Territory?

I owned Ford wagons utes and sedans forty years , now I own another brand and without a decent ford wagon will continue to drive the Euro , personally the territory is ugly and thirsty , I dislike the car and will never consider owning one .