The Truth About Ev's, maybe?

[Maka]

A interesting link from Forbes.com about ev's lol -

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurenf...tric-vehicles/

If what the author says is true, maybe there is a long way to go for ev's before it truly reaches mainstream acceptance in the US & in the future here in Oz, any thoughts?

cheers, Maka

[whynot]

Originally Posted by Maka

A interesting link from Forbes.com about ev's lol -

If what the author says is true,

I leased an Outlander PHEV for three years. So, I have some firsthand experience with electric vehicles.

Let’s deconstruct Ms Fix’s assertions.

* Ms Fix - EV are presently more expensive than petrol. True, they are. However the fuel cost (electricity) is about 1/3 that of petrol.

* Ms Fix - EV wear out brakes more. FALSE. Because EV use regenerative braking to recover energy, brake pad consumption is significantly less. So much so, that the rear disk brakes on the PHEV are surprisingly small.

* Ms Fix - EV wear out tyres earlier because they weigh more. FALSE. The battery+electric+petrol drivetrain in the Outlander PHEV weighs around 400kg more than petrol equivalent. This lifts the weight of the Outlander PHEV from 1600kg to around 2000kg (a gross weight that Territory owners would be familiar with). Do Territory owners lie awake at night worrying about tyre wear on their two tonne vehicle? In my experience with the Outlander PHEV, tyre wear was similar to my previous Territory.

Before leaving the topic of EV maintenance costs, there was a recent article in the Wall Street Journal on the massive changes taking place in the ownership of US Car Dealer franchises. The looming introduction of EV, with their significantly lower maintenance costs, was a contributing factor in the shakeup.

* Ms Fix - EV are bad because they use exotic materials from “unstable places like Congo and China”. Partly TRUE. But these minerals are also sourced from “unstable” countries like Australia.

Further, Australia is the world’s second largest reserve of cobalt and Australia is the largest producer of nickel. EV present Australia with another mineral boom opportunity. (Seriously, this took two minutes to confirm on Google. How slack is this type of opinion piece that passes off as journalism?

Contrast the concerns over supply of cobalt and nickel with Australia’s precarious reliance on overseas petroleum and lack of strategic reserve (to the point in not being compliant with IEA recommendations for a 90 day stockpile) in liquid fuel stocks. Seems ironic from my perspective.

* Ms Fix - rant about lack of range and slow recharging times. Obviously never hear of fast chargers.

After leasing an Outlander PHEV for three years, I came to the conclusion that while electric vehicles are not cost effective now, they will be once
battery technology has evolved a bit further. A full write up is available here:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/mitsu...ort-spierings/

In short, Ms Fix’s rant is rather ill informed. Once battery technology has progressed a bit further, EV have the potential to break Australia’s reliance on Middle East oil and become energy independent.

And in the interest of full disclosure, my present transport is a new CX-5.

[nt0351]

dont know where this silly cow got her info from ,.Id guess this was a sponsored biased article from oil company interests .the environmental and financial benefits are enormous
EV is here now and its here to stay ,..the only issue currently in a vast country like ours is range ,..meaning you shouldn't have to be forward planning and thinking where am i going to charge up so Im not left stranded,..in a couple of years this wont be an issue
I had a Tesla S for a week ,absolutely loved it, if the charging station infrastructure was readily accessible in regional areas Id buy one tomorrow .

[Maka]

How long will it be before the mid priced ev & associated tech (chargers etc) match their i.c.e counterparts on all levels?

My usual interesting links (from both sides of the debate ) to peruse lol -

https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-estab...s-Teslas-range

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...-engines-2040/

https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...e-road-by-2035

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/eamo...17204-Jul2017/

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewa...me-mainstream/

cheers, Maka

[jpd80]

There are two ways to look at this,

Hybrids, PHEVs and EVs are a way of reducing the cost and dependence on oil as it gets more expensive

Hybrids, PHEVs and EVs are a way for oil companies to extend their reserves and charge more for them.

The take away for me is that oil companies are not our friend but equally,
spending more in front just to say you've saved on fuel bills is self defeating.

The potential performance with EVs is simply staggering and is hard to match with ICE.

[Maka]

It can be argued ease of ownership & especially the owner convenience of the ev's compared to i.c.e powered vehicles is not quite there yet.

Ev's will one day match & surpass i.c.e powered vehicles on all levels, though high end ev vehicles will get that state of the art tech first before affordable mainstream ev's.

When will the trickle down of that tech to the affordable end of the market happen, it seems thats where the profits are to be made & where the inroads to the i.c.e grasp of the market will be impacted the most.

I think i.c.e power is not going anywhere for a good while yet before the ev's totally take over & that could be decades for many a reason.

cheers, Maka

[whynot]

Looks like the article has been, if you pardon the pun, yanked from the Forbes' web site.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by whynot

Looks like the article has been, if you pardon the pun, yanked from the Forbes' web site.

Which "article" whynot if i may ask lol?

cheers, Maka

[whynot]

Originally Posted by Maka

Which "article" whynot if i may ask lol?

cheers, Maka

This article now generates a 404 error.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurenf...tric-vehicles/

[Maka]

ABB just launched worlds fastest ev charger -

"By operating at powers of up to 350 kilowatts, the newest model from ABB, Terra High Power charger, adds up to 200 kilometers of range to an electric vehicle in just 8 minutes. The new charger is ideally suited for use at highway rest stops and petrol stations."

https://reneweconomy.com.au/abb-laun...r-messe-59915/

cheers, Maka

[Maka]

Originally Posted by whynot

This article now generates a 404 error.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurenf...tric-vehicles/

Well I'll be.., yep its gone dohh lol. Thanks for the heads up whynot, we got to read the article in the short time it was up & its generated some debate here & elsewhere on the matter i guess.

I'll keep posting links for, against or in between on the interesting subject of ev's, if anyone else would like to post links here in this thread please be my guest.

cheers, Maka

[Maka]

Heres a older Lauren Fix story that kind've sets up that Forbes article that was just removed & which whynot expertly debunked lol -

https://transportevolved.com/2014/02...expert-advice/

The comments section is pretty full too.. lol!!

cheers, Maka

[jpd80]

The US power grid could not support mass exodus of vehicles to EVs.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Maka

Well I'll be.., yep its gone dohh lol. Thanks for the heads up whynot, we got to read the article in the short time it was up & its generated some debate here & elsewhere on the matter i guess.

I'll keep posting links for, against or in between on the interesting subject of ev's, if anyone else would like to post links here in this thread please be my guest.

cheers, Maka

Perhaps you could post the titles of the articles in case they are moved / archived to a different link?

[Maka]

There we go jpd80, The Truth About Electric Vehicles by Lauren Fix.

Why can't established car manufacturers build an EV that matches Tesla's range? Quora

Electric Cars May Rule the World’s Roads by 2040, National Geographic

BP Predicts 100 Million EVs on the Road by 2035. But They ‘Won’t Be a Game-Changer’ for Oil Demand, GreenTechMedia.com

When Will Electric Cars Become Mainstream? eevblog.com

Electric cars are about to go mainstream in a dramatic way' thejournal.ie

Lauren Fix Disses EVs (Again) on Fox Business. We Set The Record Straight On Her ‘Expert’ Advice, transportevolved.com

cheers, Maka

[Maka]

Link titles continued -

ABB launches world’s fastest e-vehicle charger at Hannover Messe, reneweconomy.com.au

cheers, Maka

[stefcio007]

PHEVs are more realistic here than EVs.

I would be looking at hydrogen powered electric cars, making big progress in California.
Are Hydrogen Cars the Next Big Thing … Again? - TheDrive
http://www.thedrive.com/tech/14431/a...ig-thing-again

They have the feasibility to power trucks plus it appears to be easy to retrofit petrol stations to supply this stuff.

Seeing as Aus's grid at the moment seems to be struggling what happens if you can't charge your EV because of a power outage? Although by that point I hope most people would have energy stored at home from their solar system.

[Fordblue1000]

Great research there Maka. We had a 2014 outlander phev and now running a 2017. The dc charge capacity is great.

Some interesting facts.

We are also running an Imiev and that was one of the 1st in oz. It is now 8 years old and the battery is still at 85% capacity. We are well aware the price on a new battery will mean this car will be dumped at end of life though.

The imiev is a great little commuter car and there is a great convenience of free parking and charging in the cbd in adelaide. So thats a real bonus to not pay for parking.

There will be some more vehicles on the roads soon. The renault zoe and the hyundai ionic. Both are low 40s in price but both have a good range of 300 klms. I have a feeling the ionic will be a good fleet car as it is a good size car with decent range and priced well.

They both have 22kw charge capacity so you can recharge in 2 hrs full range if you have the capacity to do so.

Not forgetting the bmw i3 is selling more but tha tprice is still up there a bit.

Nissan leaf may well be on the market again soon as well.

Teslas are commonplace these days.

Dyson is to release their model next year, with a totally new design structure for the battery packs. And a much lower battery cost too.

For the fast charge stations they are an enormous cost. No change out of 30 k for a 100kw unit. But from a commercial point of view thay are starting to look interesting.

I have seen the development 350kw units. And they are an impressive kit. Not too sure how some of the weaker people will go with the plugs though. They are liquid cooled cables and plugs to transfer the heat generated during charge.

But it does not stop there. Busses are running 500kw charge stations these days. Thats right. 500kw.

As for the power grid side. Well you can charge at home on the off tarrif rates, when the grid is at a lower capacity demand. Will save heaps on the power and will still charge for you in the morning. No different to charging your phone each night.

It will take decades to become mainstream, but it will slowly become more popular.
When you look at what other countries are doing in regards to ev growth it is encouraging. Small things like free parking, use of transit lanes, free tolls, and a discount on rego to name a few. Adelaid eairport has free charging in their carpark.

The one saving grace is that all charging systems - AC OR DC FAST are basically the same protocol, following either of the 2 international standards. The only difference really is the plugs and that is easily fixed with an adaptor. (But tesla is tesla specific- they dont follow any charge protocols)

And think of this, the biggest .arket in the world for ev's at the moment is china. Imagine if they started to sell some of their cars here, it could really turn the tables.

Could be interesting times ahead but it will be a slow change, especially in oz.

Sent from my SM-G928I using Tapatalk

[solarite_guy]

Originally Posted by Maka

How long will it be before the mid priced ev & associated tech (chargers etc) match their i.c.e counterparts on all levels?

My usual interesting links (from both sides of the debate ) to peruse lol -

https://www.quora.com/Why-cant-estab...s-Teslas-range

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...-engines-2040/

https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...e-road-by-2035

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/eamo...17204-Jul2017/

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewa...me-mainstream/

cheers, Maka

Hey Maka,

Apologies, I read this a few days ago and then got distracted.

There is some good battery technology in the works and coming down the pike and, maybe for the best, it is off the radar of most, except a few notable hackers (China, Korea and...regrettably Japan).

Who have heard of Dr. Goodenough (NO not the good twin of Boris Badenov)

.

Dr. Goodenough was 1/2 of the engineering team that brought the world the first lithium battery. Has teamed up with Maria Braga this time with a replacement to Lithium battery technology:



The "expensive" mineral component of this battery technology? Sodium.
Anybody got a salt lake, salt bed, salt mine or maybe an ocean somewhere?

Rechargeable in minutes. Power density multiple times great than lithium batteries. Recharge multiple times more than lithium. Catch on fire? Nope.

From the horses mouth:

https://about.bnef.com/blog/goodenou...-batteries-qa/

https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/g...ery-technology

This requires a full read:
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/cha...e-magn/513183/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_battery

https://www.google.com/search?q=gr+g...nt=firefox-b-1

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/03/06...ate-batteries/

etc, etc, etc.

[jpd80]

The instant EVs get to 400-500 km range in an affordable vehicle, people will start leasing them

but listen, Bosch has magically found a way to manage diesel emissions down to one tenth of current standard limits
with existing hardware by controlling exhaust temperature......LINK

[Maka]

Originally Posted by solarite_guy

Hey Maka,

Apologies, I read this a few days ago and then got distracted.

There is some good battery technology in the works and coming down the pike and, maybe for the best, it is off the radar of most, except a few notable hackers (China, Korea and...regrettably Japan).

Who have heard of Dr. Goodenough (NO not the good twin of Boris Badenov)

image.

Dr. Goodenough was 1/2 of the engineering team that brought the world the first lithium battery. Has teamed up with Maria Braga this time with a replacement to Lithium battery technology:

image

The "expensive" mineral component of this battery technology? Sodium.
Anybody got a salt lake, salt bed, salt mine or maybe an ocean somewhere?

Rechargeable in minutes. Power density multiple times great than lithium batteries. Recharge multiple times more than lithium. Catch on fire? Nope.

From the horses mouth:

https://about.bnef.com/blog/goodenou...-batteries-qa/

https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/g...ery-technology

This requires a full read:
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/cha...e-magn/513183/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_battery

https://www.google.com/search?q=gr+g...nt=firefox-b-1

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/03/06...ate-batteries/

etc, etc, etc.

Thanks heaps SG, very impressive list of info/reading there lol, ive got a job on my xr to do atm, when i get back in, I'll definitely have a read of all the links & make a comment for sure.

cheers, Maka

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by solarite_guy

Hey Maka,

Apologies, I read this a few days ago and then got distracted.

There is some good battery technology in the works and coming down the pike and, maybe for the best, it is off the radar of most, except a few notable hackers (China, Korea and...regrettably Japan).

Who have heard of Dr. Goodenough (NO not the good twin of Boris Badenov)

image.

Dr. Goodenough was 1/2 of the engineering team that brought the world the first lithium battery. Has teamed up with Maria Braga this time with a replacement to Lithium battery technology:

image

The "expensive" mineral component of this battery technology? Sodium.
Anybody got a salt lake, salt bed, salt mine or maybe an ocean somewhere?

Rechargeable in minutes. Power density multiple times great than lithium batteries. Recharge multiple times more than lithium. Catch on fire? Nope.

From the horses mouth:

https://about.bnef.com/blog/goodenou...-batteries-qa/

https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/g...ery-technology

This requires a full read:
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/cha...e-magn/513183/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_battery

https://www.google.com/search?q=gr+g...nt=firefox-b-1

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/03/06...ate-batteries/

etc, etc, etc.

Nice idea but this sort of stuff currently in labs will take years, more likely decades before it reaches mass market. There's always a wrench that gets thrown in somewhere.

I've seen it in medicine.
So many breakthroughs on the horizon and nothing eventuates.

Call me a sceptic.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The instant EVs get to 400-500 km range in an affordable vehicle, people will start leasing them

but listen, Bosch has magically found a way to manage diesel emissions down to one tenth of current standard limits
with existing hardware by controlling exhaust temperature......LINK

oddly i watched a vid of a family drive a tesler model 3, serous range maybe 400 miles..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSuYVwhqujI

[vztrt]

China is pushing for ev vehicles. They local manufacturers all have cars in development.

The outside manufacturers will follow due to the China market.

Expect these to become more cheaper and mainstream. The infrastructure will be Australia's biggest problem.

[Maka]

Dr Goodenough is the real deal imo, in 10 years his & professor Braga's tech can potentially be on the road & everywhere else etc np.

Its a matter of when now, if Dr Goodenough & co can get the full support from all stakeholders, his solid state batteries in ev's etc will revolutionize the ev industry & better than match i.c.e powered vehicles in every aspect imo.

Exciting times are ahead for ev development & it will be very interesting to see how, when & where Dr Goodenough & co's tech will be deployed.

Solarite_guy's excellent links are a must read & i highly recommend you guys take the time & have a read!!

cheers, Maka

[Sabantien]

Whatever problems there are with EVs, they're going to be sorted out. Battery technology will improve out of sight, and charging infrastructure will develop too.

It's not going to suit everyone for a long time yet, but honestly, for most people in the city who never leave the city (and that's a LOT of people) it's pretty perfect. So long as they have somewhere to charge and aren't parked on the street (although if you work in a place that offers free EV parking AND free charging, you'd never charge at home).

I have sometimes thought an Outlander PHEV would be nice to have out here. I'd maybe get to work and back on pure battery, and then make use of the engines on longer runs, but I also think the 10k price difference buys a lot of fuel.

Ford are going to be releasing a lot of hybrid trucks in the near future, so it will be interesting to see how they work out, maybe electric will not be so far off in the bush.

That said, i'm not likely to buy a car brand new, and I wouldn't particularly want something electric second hand.

Back in the city? Maybe. While my girlfriend thinks we should have one car between us, I think we should have two, and in the city that would work out well with a small EV for running around town, and then something better suited to long runs bush.

[solarite_guy]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Nice idea but this sort of stuff currently in labs will take years, more likely decades before it reaches mass market. There's always a wrench that gets thrown in somewhere.

I've seen it in medicine.
So many breakthroughs on the horizon and nothing eventuates.

Call me a sceptic.

The good thing with Dr. Goodenough involved is he has been through these research and development cycles before with lithium technology. In addition he is very familiar with both the strengths and weaknesses of lithium technologies and why they are.

I think one of the teams biggest challenges and wastes of time will be fending off the worlds known hackers and intellectual property thieves.

I have noticed more recently he and his team have become more guarded about some of the technical specifics. I wouldn't be surprised if their lab now operates with an air gaped network now. Even this takes time and resources out the day every time the gap needs bridging through one or multiple means.

Having been to the rodeo before helps.

Of course at least one of his competitors has little to no concern where the technology originates nor for human safety and working conditions, unless something absolutely catastrophic happens. Then someone or more are hauled out and executed as a token gesture. Maybe we will see how their methods production working advanced battery products.

I wouldn't be surprised if the biggest leaks of the technology happens once the commercial battery companies get involved in product development.

We will see about that and time to market.

[solarite_guy]

Originally Posted by Maka

Dr Goodenough is the real deal imo, in 10 years his & professor Braga's tech can potentially be on the road & everywhere else etc np.

Its a matter of when now, if Dr Goodenough & co can get the full support from all stakeholders, his solid state batteries in ev's etc will revolutionize the ev industry & better than match i.c.e powered vehicles in every aspect imo.

Exciting times are ahead for ev development & it will be very interesting to see how, when & where Dr Goodenough & co's tech will be deployed.

Solarite_guy's excellent links are a must read & i highly recommend you guys take the time & have a read!!

cheers, Maka

Thanks Maka.

You are right about the reading. A quick read through or even relying on my little synopsis does little justice to the technology.

I have tried to follow the teams progress since I first learned about their efforts. They know and understand the weaknesses of the current technologies inside and out in contrast have set some meaningful goals to make noticeable improvements over the existing weaknesses.

As MB mentioned though, it is not uncommon for obstacles to crop up during the development and implementation of new technologies.

I am remaining optimistic though.

[Cruzycuzz]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Nice idea but this sort of stuff currently in labs will take years, more likely decades before it reaches mass market. There's always a wrench that gets thrown in somewhere.

I've seen it in medicine.
So many breakthroughs on the horizon and nothing eventuates.

Call me a sceptic.

Many horse and buggy owners laughed at Henry Ford back in the day too.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Cruzycuzz

Many horse and buggy owners laughed at Henry Ford back in the day too.

Not laughing at anyone.

I've been carrying a superbug for the last 25 years.
25 years ago our most powerful antibiotic was Vancomycin. Today our most powerful antibiotic is still Vancomycin.

This is with some of the world's finest minds working the problem.

New battery tech would be fantastic, just don't expect it in your car in the next few years.
From the lab to reality ain't easy, is all I'm saying.