Hydrogen is coming

[Wretched]

Hyundai has begun delivering the first of 10 ground-breaking, commercially available, hydrogen-powered trucks to Switzerland.
The trucks – the first in the world of their type, and a pointer to how heavy transport could make the switch to electrification – essentially use the same technology that will power the fleet of Hyundai Nexo hydrogen cars that will soon hit the roads of Canberra as part of a trial in the nation's capital.

In a fuel cell car – and truck – hydrogen is transformed into electricity to charge an onboard battery pack which in turn powers an electric motor or motors.

It means a hydrogen-powered car can refuel in a matter of minutes – just like a petrol or diesel vehicle – rather than the hours it takes for an electric car to fully recharge.

Billed as the world’s first fuel-cell heavy duty trucks, the Hyundai Xcient Fuel Cell is powered by a 190kW hydrogen system with a range of around 400km.

Korean car giant Hyundai plans to send a total of 50 trucks to Switzerland this year as part of its commitment to building a total of 1600 by 2025.

“Xcient Fuel Cell is a present-day reality, not as a mere future drawing board project," said In Cheol Lee, executive vice president and head of Hyundai's commercial vehicle division, in a media statement.

"By putting this ground-breaking vehicle on the road now, Hyundai marks a significant milestone in the history of commercial vehicles and the development of hydrogen society,” he said.

“Building a comprehensive hydrogen ecosystem, where critical transportation needs are met by vehicles like Xcient Fuel Cell, will lead to a paradigm shift that removes automobile emissions from the environmental equation.”

The Hyundai Xcient is powered by a 190kW hydrogen fuel cell system comprised of two 95kW fuel cell stacks. Seven separate hydrogen fuel tanks can hold a total of 32.09kg of hydrogen for a driving range of 400km. Refuelling takes between 8-20 minutes.

The range of 400km was developed to provide, according to Hyundai, “an optimal balance between the specific requirements from the potential commercial fleet customers and the charging infrastructure in Switzerland”.

Hyundai claims fuel cell technology is ideal for commercial applications by offering long range and short refuelling times. Hyundai also claims the twin fuel cell system is powerful enough to traverse mountainous regions of Switzerland, typically environments that are heavy on fuel consumption.

Hydrogen-powered vehicles can be thought of as mobile power stations – the hydrogen is used to power the fuel cell which creates electricity that charges an on-board battery pack which then fuels the vehicle’s electric motor. There are no emissions, with water vapour the only substance emanating from the exhaust pipe.

Hyundai Australia's senior manager for future mobility and government relations, Scott Nargar, told Drive the Xcient Fuel Cell truckis unlikely to make its way Down Under any time soon.

"Not in the short term," he said, "but we are always looking at opportunities."

He added the Xcient would be well-suited to Australian conditions thanks to its fast recharging capabilities, but stressed the charging infrastructure needed to be in place to make hydrogen-powered commercial applications a viability.

Hyundai has been a pioneer in fuel-cell technology, establishing a dedicated research team as far back as 1998.

In 2019, the Hyundai Nexo (pictured above) became the first commercially available hydrogen-powered car in Australia. However the first examples are not due to be delivered to the ACT Government as part of a trial until later this year.

https://www.drive.com.au/news/hyunda...trackLink=SMH3

Logistically easier for the Australian government to deal with that EVs; i.e. nothing for them to do
No need to subsidise charging points, put it back on Shell and BP.

[Ben73]

I want kmav's opinion on hydrogen

[happy1]

I had lunch with a business development guy in Perth last week, that said he also think Hydrogen is coming to Busses and Trucks etc. near you, possibly quite soon. He recently worked for a pump distributor that already are looking at being at the front of offering filling stations, and getting some pilot projects going. Some energy companies were also mentioned looking at this.

Here is a photo of a H2 filling station:
https://www.aussiefluidpower.com.au/...rogen-systems/

[MercuryT]

Thought I logged into wrong forum for a sec.

Carry on with car speak

[PG2]

...Refuelling takes between 8-20 minutes....

8-20 minutes is still too long in my opinion.

It is too long to just stand there but not long enough to leave it and go and have a cuppa etc while it is refuelling.

I'm sure with technological advances refuelling times will come down.

We are in for interesting exciting times in the next decade or so.

[chevypower]

Nikola says under 15 mins https://nikolamotor.com/hydrogen#hydrogen-advantages

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Ben73

I want kmav's opinion on hydrogen

He would only want to talk about the share price

[Crazy Dazz]

Companies have been peddling crap, since the Ugg brothers invented fire.
Just because Company X has knocked together a few examples and is trialling them somewhere, does not mean its the wave of the future.

Hydrogen fuel-cells make zero sense on so many levels.

A hydrogen filling station is going to cost a hell of a lot more than an EV station, and require a lot more maintenance.

Using hydrogen produced by electrolysis, is stupendously inefficient.
I'll give you a hint, NOBODY produces commercial hydrogen that way.

The range is truly crap. You simply can't store enough compressed hydrogen to make it viable. At least with an EV, the idea is that for most user, you simply leave the car on charge overnight at home. No drama. Eventually, if you can also plug it at work or in a public carpark, so much the better.
But the idea of having to go to the servo every day, and stand around while your car fills with hydrogen. Well lets just say that in American the incidence of people shooting their cars will rise dramatically.

Its also extremely dangerous, far more so than LPG which many seem to hate.
In developing their air-burst weapons (ie things that are meant to explode in the most lethal way possible) the USA rejected Hydrogen because it was too dangerous.
Hydrogen requires specialised tanks and fittings because under pressure it is highly corrosive and will eat through most metals and polymers.
If you get any air trapped in the tank, even a few ml everytime you fill, eventually it will ignite and explode.

The whole argument for Hydrogen, is based on the MYTH of infinite free (or at least damn cheap) electricity from Nuclear Power.
I say "myth" because the argument for "limitless cheap electricity" has been made for the last 100 years, but has never actually eventuated. Now I am no expert on the economics of running a nuclear power station, and maybe its just corporate greed, but the cost of buying nuclear-generated power (whilst cheaper) has never reached the super-cheap levels promised.

[guzzis3]

You know all through teh 80's and 90's I had people telling me about miracle fuels and motors every week. They really appreciated me explaining why the latest piece of media fuels BS didn't make sense... but yeah buy into it. Good luck with that.

You know we used to have hydrogen powered cars don't you ? 40 years ago. Compressed natural gas. Trouble is LPG won out, the CNG re-fuelers never got critical mass and it died out.

The only reason we didn't have mass takeup of electric cars in the 70's was batteries. Lithium has changed that.

Anyway engineering doesn't matter, all that matters is perception.

[happy1]

Hi,
I think you are forgetting that Lithium mining and battery production doesn't come without significant environmental impact also through its lifecycle.

El. power to produce H2 doesn't need to come from a nuclear plant, it can come from your rooftop PV, which we are getting more and more of.

Instead of having an expensive battery bank it can be made into H2 which perhaps can be stored more easily than electricity in a battery. Perhaps in a small scale, that you produce your own H2, rather than have a battery.

However it is a fair bit of equipment involved. Fuel cells does require some clean-up and rebuilding etc. I haven't studied that part of it.

Cheers,

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by PG2

8-20 minutes is still too long in my opinion.

It is too long to just stand there but not long enough to leave it and go and have a cuppa etc while it is refuelling.

I'm sure with technological advances refuelling times will come down.

We are in for interesting exciting times in the next decade or so.

We need our resident expert opinion on coffee and cake.

*Paging Cav, you have an appointment in 'The Pub'*

[guzzis3]

Originally Posted by happy1

Hi,
I think you are forgetting that Lithium mining and battery production doesn't come without significant environmental impact also through its lifecycle.

El. power to produce H2 doesn't need to come from a nuclear plant, it can come from your rooftop PV, which we are getting more and more of.

Instead of having an expensive battery bank it can be made into H2 which perhaps can be stored more easily than electricity in a battery. Perhaps in a small scale, that you produce your own H2, rather than have a battery.

However it is a fair bit of equipment involved. Fuel cells does require some clean-up and rebuilding etc. I haven't studied that part of it.

Cheers,

Except that PV are environmental disasters. There was a paper written a while back claiming they had reduced the pollution cost to produce them but it's probably propaganda. It inevitably costs a truckload of energy to melt silicon into crystals. I suspect if you trace the energy cost properly it's still more than you ever get out of the cells. But that doesn't matter, as long as the angry mob believe it's environmental that's all that ever matters.

I do quite like solar thermal. Obviously the mirrors involve a cost but the plants are relatively low tech high yield as long as your mirrors don't get clobbered too often. Maybe sacrifice some efficiency and use stainless rather than silvered mirrors.

Anyway...probably getting off topic. Supplying electricity for lectric' cars is probably not directly related to hydrogen cars.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by guzzis3

I suspect if you trace the energy cost properly it's still more than you ever get out of the cells.

It's about 6 months of generation to offset the energy consumed to produce them.

[Sprintey]

Toyota HQ locally was in trials with the Mirai, which is an existing Hydrogen fuel cell car.

BMW tried a different path, burning it it a huge V8 7 series on a trial.

It's probably true to say that it will take multiple different approaches to replace fossil fuels.

The big question for all of them is what is the EROEI (energy returned on energy invested)? Can any of it match the 100:1 of early oil? I think we under 10:1 currently and it's getting harder to find reserves (deep ocean, having to process tar sands, fracking etc), so do any of the alternatives feature a higher EROEI once all their manufacture, use and recycling are taken into account?

rough rule of thumb, EROEI > 5 is required to sustain a society, >10 to sustain a complex industrial one.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

I think we under 10:1 currently and it's getting harder to find reserves

nuclear is 14:1 ... if only we had the appetite for it.

[Fordman1]

Hydrogen requires more “Input power“ to liquify it from H2O, and other sources etc then it actually generates itself in a vehicle / power source.

This a dead end and a waste of time ��

(until we have cold fusion).

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by b0son

nuclear is 14:1 ... if only we had the appetite for it.

Does that include the entire life cycle and decommissioning of plants and 250,000 year storage of used rods, etc

Here's a link to "Into Eternity", the documentary on the Finnish Onkalo nuclear waste depository (and well done to the Finns, they have actually attempted a long term storage solution)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrGP87XeJjY

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Does that include the entire life cycle and decommissioning of plants and 250,000 year storage of used rods, etc

Considering the energy density of nuclear fuel compared to every other fuel, it surely must. If we ever get LFTR off the ground, the waste storage time will be slashed. It's telling that both China and India are investing significantly in it.

[Franco Cozzo]

There was a few blokes playing around with HHO injection on E series Falcons on the old Fordmods forum circa 2007.

Interesting novelty in that case.

[cheap]

Some of you young ones may not know, but in the late 1970’s early 1980’s there was an Aussie by the name of Horvath who had a Holden Kingswood converted to run on water...

Then there was another bloke who drove from Casino NSW to Brisbane ran using nothing but a cup and half of water...

[Sprintey]

Please tell more cheap

Was it a certain pulsed frequency that drastically reduced the energy required to break the H-O bonds?



& Franco/mods - any links for those HHO threads?

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Please tell more cheap

Was it a certain pulsed frequency that drastically reduced the energy required to break the H-O bonds?



& Franco/mods - any links for those HHO threads?

Big Oil got involved, paid out the inventors, sworn to secrecy, the prototypes destroyed and the designs locked away in a mysterious storage facility (much like - Ark of the Covenant)

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Please tell more cheap

Was it a certain pulsed frequency that drastically reduced the energy required to break the H-O bonds?



& Franco/mods - any links for those HHO threads?

http://www.fordmods.com/ford-lpg-hyd...as-t59449.html

http://www.fordmods.com/ford-lpg-hyd...o-t106905.html

2007 was when BMW did the Hydrogen 7 as well, it was their conventional V12 that could run on hydrogen or unleaded.

Except it did 50L/100km on hydrogen.

And the hydrogen had to be stored at -253C to be safe.

Cool technology experiment but I believe hydrogen fuel cell is the future rather than using it to fuel internal combustion engines.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by cheap

Big Oil got involved, paid out the inventors, sworn to secrecy, the prototypes destroyed and the designs locked away in a mysterious storage facility (much like - Ark of the Covenant)

lol, but any more about Horvath? Never heard of him.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

lol, but any more about Horvath? Never heard of him.

As I recall, he had the bonnet of the vehicle open for the TV cameras, generated much publicity. Vehicle was fitted with a different air cleaner, couple of additional hoses and next to zero technical details. I was in year 11-12 doing Physics and it caused much excitement until my Physics teacher told me it was utter crap. I think Dick Smith offered him $1million if 1% of 1% of his technology worked as he described.

At one stage Joh Bjelke-Petersen was going to rebuild Qld using hydrogen technology.

Horvath and hydrogen. https://www.skeptics.com.au/wp-conte...)%20No%204.pdf

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Hydrogen requires more “Input power“ to liquify it from H2O, and other sources etc then it actually generates itself in a vehicle / power source.

This a dead end and a waste of time ��

(until we have cold fusion).

It used to be but now with the introduction of catalysts, it has sped up the process and reduced power input. GHD Has just placed a considerable amount of $$$ into research from a Sydney Uni and is placing into production for houses or businesses. These all in one units will generate H2, store it and generate electricity and your off the grid .

According to (youtube engineering explained) the hydrogen fuel cell, is much more efficient than battery and ICE.

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

He would only want to talk about the share price

And surprise surprise you'd only want to play the man not the ball.
So much hatred you have towards a couple of people.
Thanks anyway for your incredible input.

[xxx000]

Originally Posted by cheap

Some of you young ones may not know, but in the late 1970’s early 1980’s there was an Aussie by the name of Horvath who had a Holden Kingswood converted to run on water...

Then there was another bloke who drove from Casino NSW to Brisbane ran using nothing but a cup and half of water...

You omitted the word 'claimed ' twice in your post

[71cop]

So is Christ apparently.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by xxx000

And surprise surprise you'd only want to play the man not the ball.
So much hatred you have towards a couple of people.
Thanks anyway for your incredible input.

Ah did I say anything about him personally?