Need advice. 2012 Fiesta auto issues

Tickford. · 01-04-2020, 05:36 PM

So my elderly uncle has owned a 2012 Fiesta from new. Purchased from Coffey Ford Dandenong Jan 2013. The auto has broken down once again (loud whine, no reverse, hard to start, etc), and is now due to go in for the forth time for a "repair". It has just over 70k, and has always been serviced at Ford dealers.

He has had enough and is sick of it. What are his options? I read the Ford Aus statement released 26/04/2018 on the powershift transmission. He said last time this happened he told the service manager that he is sick of it and wanted a replacement or refund, but was told 'we have a fix for it, should be fine from now on' or similar.

Just need some advice on where he stands? And what are his options from Fiesta owners who were in a similar position please?

Craig@AUDI · 02-04-2020, 08:44 AM

Call 13FORD / 133673 and lodge a RAVS case.

Tickford. · 02-04-2020, 06:38 PM

Thanks Craig. He called today and was told a case manager will call on Monday.

What does 'RAVS' stand for please?

Is a no cost replacement really possible? From the article linked in my post above:

Quote:

“Of particular concern was the Owner Loyalty Program, which resulted in customers paying an additional cost to buy new vehicles although they may have been eligible for a refund or no cost replacement vehicle. We now realise this program was flawed as it didn’t ensure an adequate assessment of customers’ rights under consumer law. It was discontinued in November 2016.

“We are committed to making right with these customers.”

If there's anyone on here who has been through this process, would love to hear about your experience and outcome.

GTLEGEND · 02-04-2020, 06:41 PM

Hard to get a no cost replacement because the equivalent vehicle is no longer offered by Ford, ie they don't sell Fiesta (apart from ST) anymore!

Good luck with your case.

Tickford. · 02-04-2020, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTLEGEND

Hard to get a no cost replacement because the equivalent vehicle is no longer offered by Ford, ie they don't sell Fiesta (apart from ST) anymore!

Good luck with your case.

Cheers GT. Yes please to the new Fiesta ST!!

He'd be happy to have the car fixed properly once and for all.

Is there even a proper fix for this vehicle? A new no cost replacement transmission perhaps??

Tickford. · 06-04-2020, 05:59 PM

Update: The car was taken in this morning to Freeway Ford, and was picked up a few hours later(??)

Scan came up with just one code - P2837(?). Was advised that the transmission needs replacing but they will not do so at no cost?? Freeway Ford are saying the mechanical issues of the transmission have nothing to do with the recall/previous issues related to the Powershift transmission that were fixed under warranty. Because the current Transmission Control Module is not faulty, apparently.

Reverse gear works randomly. But because it worked the one time they took it for a drive, apparently there's no issue. After a 20-30 min drive, if you turn the car off, or on, there's loud clicking from the left front. Again, randomly. Fails to start, randomly.

How is my uncle be expected to pay for a new transmission, when the now broken transmission is a result of a well known Ford issue?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Tickford. · 28-04-2020, 06:21 PM

Update: The car is still playing up just as much. My elderly uncle has only driven the Fiesta when absolutely necessary (shopping, doctors, etc) as he is very concerned about being stranded.

The Fiesta is going in again tomorrow to Freeway Ford for a transmission oil sample to be taken. Why? Freeway Ford have already stated on paper that the transmission needs replacing. Will Ford now tell him the test shows such and such is at an acceptable level and it's not Ford's problem??

He is a elderly retired gentleman who lives with his elderly retired wife. It's really sad how Ford Australia are giving this elderly man a hard time about something that is a well known issue.

GTLEGEND · 28-04-2020, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tickford.

Thanks Craig. He called today and was told a case manager will call on Monday.

What does 'RAVS' stand for please?

Is a no cost replacement really possible? From the article linked in my post above:

If there's anyone on here who has been through this process, would love to hear about your experience and outcome.

You never mentioned what the case manager advised?

Tickford. · 28-04-2020, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTLEGEND

You never mentioned what the case manager advised?

Case manager contacted him (06/04/20) to say they will investigate. Then two weeks went by with nothing. My uncle then rang the case manager to check progress, who then advised him that another case manager has taken over his case, and would contact him. Few days pass and nothing, so my uncle then called the new case manager, who asked him if Freeway Ford had called him to bring the car for a transmission oil sample to be taken. To which the answer was no. Next day (24/04/20) Freeway Ford called and made an appointment for the sample to be taken. Which is happening tomorrow.

Freeway Ford Cranbourne VIC have already stated on report that the transmission needs replacing, but it was not a warranty fix, and my uncle would have to pay for it. Which is a load of bull.

If the transmission needs replacing, why is Ford Australia now asking for an oil sample?

Tickford. · 02-05-2020, 05:50 PM

Update: He received a phone call yesterday. Oil sample is contaminated. Transmission needs replacing. But Ford will not refund or replace.

Ford Australia sent him the following letter:

Quote:

Our Assessment

Following our review, we inform you that we do not believe that you are entitled to a replacement vehicle under the Australian Consumer Law (ACL). This is because we believe the rejection period has ended.

Under Australian law, when a consumer buys products and services they come with automatic guarantees that they will work under what is referred to as Australia’s consumer guarantee rights.

If something goes wrong with their vehicle, a consumer may be entitled to a refund or replacement under the ACL.

However, according to the ACL, there are circumstances where a consumer is not entitled to a refund or replacement even if something has gone wrong with their vehicle. One of these circumstances is where the "rejection period" has ended.

The “rejection period” is the period commencing from the time a consumer bought a vehicle, during which it would be reasonable to expect a problem to appear.

The law does not specify how long the rejection period is for any particular vehicle.
It defines it as "the period from the time of the supply of the goods to the consumer within which it would be reasonable to expect the relevant failure… to become apparent having regard to" the:

Type of good;
Way in which the consumer is likely to use it;
Length of time for which it is reasonable for the good to be used; and
Amount of use to which it is reasonable for the goods to be put before the problem becomes apparent.

For illustration only, on a vehicle it may be in the order of years, in the case of a small electrical appliance it may be in the order of months, while on a food item, it may be in the order of days.

In your circumstance, we believe too much time has passed, that the rejection period has ended, and accordingly we do not believe that you are entitled to a refund or replacement vehicle under the ACL.

We hope this background assists to explain our decision. It does not constitute legal advice. You may wish to seek legal advice about your rights, including your legal options for pursuing a claim or what to do when considering the outcome of our decision. More detailed information about your rights under the ACL and where you can get help is included in Ford’s Customer Service Charter (available here).

We apologise for any difficulties you have encountered with your Ford FIESTA.

Rest assured, we will continue to support you throughout our dealer network. Should you experience any concerns with your vehicle in the future, please do not hesitate to contact us on 13FORD (13 3673), and we will seek to work to resolve your matter as promptly as possible.

Kind regards,
Ford Motor Company of Australia Limited

Very unfair of Ford. The transmission has been playing up since purchase. He has had a number of visits to Ford dealers to get the issue rectified with no result. He asked for a refund or a replacement vehicle a few years ago when he just got sick and tired of it, but was given the run around. Now they tell him "the rejection period has ended." Why did they bother to ask him to take it to the dealer for an oil sample then? If the rejection period had ended, why make him take it to the dealer? Seems to me Ford now knowing what the issue is, are trying to wiggle out of it.

What a way to treat an old man who has been a loyal Ford customer for a very long time.

If anyone can help with any advice going forward, it's much appreciated.

GTLEGEND · 02-05-2020, 05:59 PM

Curious, has anybody replaced the fluid anytime, because if the fluid is contaminated (with what?) then it appears the cause of this failure is due to them putting in contaminated oil as that's the only way it can happen unless the car went under water and water entered through the breather, there is no other way for the oil to become contaminated? You cant blame Ford if a dealer or other mechanic replaced the oil with something that was contaminated?

Either way it has not been a good experience for your uncle.

Tickford. · 02-05-2020, 06:10 PM

He wasn't told the details of what the contamination was. He did ask.

The car has only been serviced at Ford dealers. Ford have "looked" at the transmission a number of times over the years, so if at any time during these checks the transmission oil needed replacing/topping up, Ford dealers would have done it with the recommended oil. I hope.

The car has never been under water, or even close to it.

fiestaz · 02-05-2020, 07:40 PM

Wouldn’t this be covered under the warranty of the power shift gear box. I thought ford extended this to 7 years? Am I mistaking?

GTLEGEND · 02-05-2020, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiestaz

Wouldn’t this be covered under the warranty of the power shift gear box. I thought ford extended this to 7 years? Am I mistaking?

2012 Fiesta + 7 years = 2019, It would be out of that too..

Tickford. · 02-05-2020, 10:00 PM

Purchased new January 2013. So only 3 months out of Powershift transmission warranty. But the issue was well and truly identified during warranty period. Heck, it was bought to attention about a year after purchase.

GTLEGEND · 02-05-2020, 10:14 PM

Did you take up with Ford Australia (not the dealer) at any point before this last time?

Tickford. · 02-05-2020, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTLEGEND

Did you take up with Ford Australia (not the dealer) at any point before this last time?

Isn't a Ford Australia dealer a representative of Ford Australia?

No I don't think he has rang 13FORD about this issue prior. He was dealing with the same Ford dealer in hope that the issue would be rectified. And the dealer said everytime that it would be rectified. Obviously misleading tactics that Ford Australia had instructed their dealers to pass onto their customers as noted in their statement linked in the OP.

fiestaz · 03-05-2020, 08:22 AM

I’m no expert but I thought that you are protected still under consumer law if there is a failure just outside of warranty. 3 months out of warranty is not acceptable for the car to fail. Plus you’ve already got a history at the dealer that something was wrong within the warranty period which was not fixed.

Mondaveo · 03-05-2020, 09:14 PM

Disclaimer: I Am Not A Lawyer.

I think you should seek legal advice. You can start by contacting Fair Trading in your state for general advice and resources. Some consumer law services and firms provide free consultations that you can use to find out if your claim may have any merit.

Yes, Ford's standard MO is to fob you off until they've run out the time on the warranty and consumer guarantees (the "rejection period" in their response to you). The same happened with the Mondeo I bought (they fobbed off the previous owner over a Powershift defect, so that it was still present when I became owner out of warranty). It stinks that they only do the minimum required of them by law and won't go beyond to do the right thing by owners. Since they've successfully wrung you out to seven years by now, it's going to be hard to get them to come to party - and note that post-ACCC lawsuit they wouldn't be doing this if they didn't think they could justify under law. But seeing as your uncle is the original owner, and the car has essentially never been right from the start, you may be able to build a case.

You'll need to gather all the service history and any documentation and evidence you can to show when and what faults occurred and repairs were attempted. There are a few avenues you may be able to go with this. If there were a lot of failures and time spent being fixed from early on in the ownership period, then you can argue that constitutes a major fault and the vehicle was not fit for purpose from the outset, which should (7 years later) constitute grounds for a partial refund or goodwill repair of the current issue.

You should also follow up on the details of the extended Powershift warranty. If the current issue is covered in those terms (I'm not sure how specific they may be - the dealer seems to be implying you have a different kind of failure that isn't included) and you can show it was present during the warranty period, then you should be able to argue for a no-cost repair.

Your claim that your uncle asked for a refund "several years ago" and was denied by the dealer is an interesting one. As far as I know, if the product has a major failure and you ask for a refund within the "rejection period", the dealer doesn't get to refuse you while they keep trying (pretending) to fix it. So they may actually have acted unlawfully there, but whether you can get traction on a claim for this will depend on the details (timeframe, evidence, whether there was a formal request).

While you are investigating your legal options, you should politely contact your case manager and ask for a review of your case. In your submission, you should emphasise the points above (the vehicle was not of acceptable quality from the get go, the issues have been longstanding/were present and covered by warranty but not addressed, a refund was previously requested and unlawfully refused, etc - as far as those are applicable, which is to say, you'll need to check up the details). Mention that you are reviewing your legal options, but as a longstanding customer, you'd be willing to accept a no-cost repair (replacement) of the transmission as an act of goodwill, rather than pursuing a full refund.

And whatever the outcome, you use your experience of Ford's customer support to inform your decision of where to shop when you come to buy your next car.

Tickford. · 04-05-2020, 05:59 PM

Thank you very much Mondaveo for that very detailed post. Much appreciated. He is going to contact CCW Law Firm (firm handling the class action) and Fair Trading tomorrow.

The contamination was said to be metal particulates. WTF?? Ford are saying the clutch is the only part covered by the Powershift warranty and not the transmission. The transmission has failed due to the faulty clutch that has been replaced 3 times in 3 years, causing the transmission to fail.

He tried to plead his case today with Ford but was informed that his case is now closed.

The car went into limp home mode once again today while doing 80km/h. He lost all drive and panicked as there was no emergency lane to pull into. This is just a very bad accident waiting to happen.

Well done Ford Australia.

Mondaveo · 05-05-2020, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tickford.

Ford are saying the clutch is the only part covered by the Powershift warranty and not the transmission.

The three failure modes of the dry-clutch Powershift (those that generated all the headlines) were:

oil leak onto the clutches (termed "wet" shudder)
overheating and degradation of the clutches (termed "dry" shudder), and
failure of the TCM electronics (influenced by overheating).

It seems that the extended warranty on Powershift has been crafted to only cover those specific failures. Of course that doesn't preclude the transmission failing in other ways, and they seem to want to argue that you (your uncle) have a different failure (and why am I not surprised). Unfortunately, I don't think we can count on them honouring it under the extended warranty unless it can be shown the problem originates with clutch or TCM.

BTW I looked up that fault code you posted earlier. P2837 is "Shift Fork 'B' Position Circuit Range/Performance", indicates a problem controlling one of the electric motors that performs shifting. Here's a couple of links from Google:
https://www.engine-codes.com/p2837.html
https://www.transmissionrepaircostgu...lutch-problem/

Interestingly the possible causes/solutions list the TCM, so it might be connected, but then we have...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tickford.

The contamination was said to be metal particulates. WTF??

That doesn't sound good. "Metal particulates" usually means "something in the gearbox has lunched itself". Which is why you need a whole new transmission and not (just) another clutch pack or TCM. I'm sorry.

Two things I'd suggest. If the car is still driveable and being driven, get yourself an OBDII scan tool (I'd recommend OBDLink MX). Set yourself up with FORScan on a laptop or smartphone so that you can interrogate the car for any fault codes after each journey. They can be very informative for understanding the precise issue, but they won't necessarily appear on cue when you've taken it to a mechanic.

The other thing is to ring around and see if you can find a transmission specialist near you, get their independent diagnosis and quote to repair. They might dispute Ford's findings... and if it comes down to you paying for it, I guarantee they'll be cheaper than the dealer. If you were in Canberra I could recommend a place (might still be worth it to ask if they know someone in your area).

In the mean time, we cross our fingers and hope something comes of the legal places. Be interesting to see what CCW say. I find it quite perverse in Ford's response to you that they basically say seven years (with servicing by the book) is a fair length of time before you basically have to change out your transmission. I didn't see that one on the new Ranger or Escape advertising: "If you're lucky, it'll only grenade itself after seven years!". Would like to see that definition of "acceptable durability" tested by "reasonable consumers" in a court of law, though I really hope you won't have to take it that far on your own...