2.5 sunk warships 'Missing'???

[Yellow_Festiva]

Now this is a curly one!

Mystery as three huge warships that sunk during World War Two VANISH from the sea bed

Three Dutch warships that were sunk during World War Two have 'vanished' from the sea bed, sparking an investigation.

The HNLMS De Ruyter, HMLMS Java and HMLMS Kortenaer were all downed by the Japanese during the Battle of the Java Sea in 1942.

However, their wrecks were discovered 'intact' off the coast of Indonesia by amateur divers in 2002, 60 years after the deadly naval battle.

But now, an expedition to mark the upcoming 75th anniversary of the event has found that the ships have mysteriously vanished, officials say.

Sonar shows the imprints of the wrecks on the sea bed, according to The Guardian However, two of the vessels - and some of the third - have disappeared.

In a statement, the Dutch defence ministry said the wrecks of the HNLMS De Ruyter and HMLMS Java have 'seemingly gone completely missing'.

Meanwhile, a 'large part' of the HMLMS Kortenaer has disappeared.

The statement said: "An investigation has been launched to see what has happened to the wrecks, while the cabinet has been informed."

It added: "The desecration of a war grave is a serious offence."

More than 2,200 people died in the Battle of the Java Sea, on February 27, 1942.

Theo Vleugels, director of the Dutch War Graves Foundation, said of the wrecks' disappearance: “The people who died there should be left in peace.”

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/...45P?li=AAgfLCP

At first I was thinking these just dissolved away but apparently not?

It doesn't say exactly how 'some' of the 3rd vessel was detached.

Could it have sunk through the sea floor silt?

Scrap steel poachers??

[superyob]

That is a curly one YF. One would presume that scrapping such vessels would be near impossible in those conditions???

[Itsme]

Easy answer,tsunami's are known to change sea floor conditions, Indonesia has had a couple of these events in recent years.

Most likely the wrecks have been dragged to different location.

[66FAIRLANE]

A good explanation. I was in Mauritius earlier in the year and went down in a sub. There was a purposely sunk fishing trawler that was resting about 30m down in two pieces. I was surprised to learn that it was sunk whole and broke up as a result of a cyclone some years later! Tsunami conditions would be much much worse.

Now lets find the Montevideo Marau.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by trublu

Easy answer,tsunami's are known to change sea floor conditions, Indonesia has had a couple of these events in recent years.

Most likely the wrecks have been dragged to different location.

Having said that, I understood that to be the case when the water was quite shallow.

If it was deep I can't see how it would have been able to shift such a large vessel that was probably half buried.

Of course I'm no expert.

Still love to know the nature behind the way part of a ship went missing?

Cut? torn? Bent? rusted away?

[DJR-351]

Illegal salvaging of sunken ships, war ships or otherwise, has been going on for years around Indonesian/Malaysian waters.

The illegal salvors use explosives to blast the wrecks apart and bring up the scrap piece by piece, the company I work for was contracted by the US to park a vessel over a WW2 wreck just north of the Sunda Straits about 12 years ago. Can't remember the name offhand but rats had already been chewing at it with most of the superstructure gone and one of the forward turrets blown clear of the wreck....

Here's another example around the same area of the OP, it also mentions the Dutch ships....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nging-java-sea

....these guys have been at this for generations, basically the family business for many....

[Yellow_Festiva]

Well there you go....

Nothing surprises me these days.

[Stefan]

F####k me, if that is the case, there surely has to an easier way to make quid? These things are not made of gold are they?

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by Stefan

F####k me, if that is the case, there surely has to an easier way to make quid?

I guess Indonesian supermarkets don't sell grapes that customers tend to "accidentally" slip on.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Stefan

F####k me, if that is the case, there surely has to an easier way to make quid? These things are not made of gold are they?

The same happened to HMS Repulse & HMS Prince of Wales, the propeller's alone (8 off between the two ships) are made out of phosphor bronze, the scrap price for phosphor bronze (from the below article) is around £3,800 per ton, with each of the eight propeller's weighing an estimated 15 tonnes, do the math then convert to Aus $$ then of course you have the value rest of the ships various metals, big bickies for a Malaysian

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-...wwii-for-scrap

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rap-metal.html

Mr Shaw said he had repeatedly chased off scrap metal scavengers from above the wrecks, but if they continued their work unchecked, Mr Shaw there would be nothing left of the vessels in as little as a decade.


Made of phosphor bronze, the massive propellors would have earned a bumper payday for the scrap metal merchants. The scrap price for phosphor bronze is around £3,800 per ton, with each of the eight propellors weighing an estimated 15 tonnes.

But having stripped the wrecks of those components, the scavengers have now started to take other ferrous metals, primarily brass and copper, as well as large chunks of steel, such as the propellor shafts, and high-grade aluminium.

"There are no longer any propellors or shafts left on either of the wrecks and there are now a number of locations on both ships that have been extensively damaged by the use of explosives," Mr Shaw said.

I'm pretty sure where the Dutch investigation will end up.....

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Having said that, I understood that to be the case when the water was quite shallow.

If it was deep I can't see how it would have been able to shift such a large vessel that was probably half buried.

Of course I'm no expert.

Still love to know the nature behind the way part of a ship went missing?

Cut? torn? Bent? rusted away?

The ship isn't in deep water if amateur divers could get to it.

150ft requires extensive knowledge and exotic gasses.

Sadly it seems the Indonesians have also been raping HMAS Perth which is in the same waters.
Australian Government and war graves commission should hang their heads in shame. The ship is being dismantled in front of them and they won't lift a bloody finger! Makes me want to spew.
These people died for our country and we stand by and let their graves be desecrated...

http://www.news.com.au/national/scav...-1226783163131

[Rockape]

Destroying war graves like that can't be aloud. Justice should be swift and very harsh.

[Pedro]

The RAN used to moor laid up ships in Athol Bight in Sydney Harbour. Back in the 60's or 70's a couple of enterprising divers removed the prop of one of them using semi-submerged flotation equipment and spirited it off to the scrap metal recyclers - no questions asked.

[Pedro]

Originally Posted by trublu

Easy answer,tsunami's are known to change sea floor conditions, Indonesia has had a couple of these events in recent years.
Most likely the wrecks have been dragged to different location.

Look what happened this week in NZ when that quake devastated the Kaikoura coast. In one section the sea floor has risen two metres above sea level.

See here ... http://www.9news.com.au/world/2016/1...d-seabed-by-2m

[aussiblue]

The steel used in the pre Atomic Bomb ear is highly sought after has added salvage value see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-background_steel

Or perhaps not so much http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-radioactivity

[JG66ME]

The wrecks of HMS Exeter (Ex Battle of the River Plate) and HMS Electra (rescued survivors from HMS Hood and HMS Prince of Wales) have also disappeared in the same area. Just depressions in the seabed.

[mostly_broncos]

Steel isn't worth much right now. I scrap cars and $60 USD a ton has been the price for the last 6 months. I've been letting them pile up in my yard. I have 15 vehicles at the moment.

However in 2011 it was $400 USD a ton so if there was a time when it was worth scrapping underwater metal it probably was around then.

[Lunch]

Originally Posted by 66FAIRLANE

I was in Mauritius earlier in the year and went down in a sub.

the mile below club?

[Bill M]

Not new news unfortunately...
https://news.usni.org/2014/08/25/rep...-houston-wreck

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Bill M

Not new news unfortunately...
https://news.usni.org/2014/08/25/rep...-houston-wreck

How are they going to stop this?
This has to be organised crime, surely. I can't see how the 'locals' could get down to 120ft without good diving gear.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

How are they going to stop this?
This has to be organised crime, surely. I can't see how the 'locals' could get down to 120ft without good diving gear.

The organised crime would probably the bloody Malaysian or Indonesian governments. The Malaysian government are that blatantly crooked and corrupt they would sell their own family members if it meant profit ...

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

How are they going to stop this?
This has to be organised crime, surely. I can't see how the 'locals' could get down to 120ft without good diving gear.

Nothing special about the dive gear they use other than it's all very second/third hand and cobbled together. Loads of ex commercial stuff out there for sale cheap if you don't mind out of survey and un-certified equipment, dive compressors, hookah's, tanks, regs, umbilicals etc....ton's of stuff, and very much bush mechanics when it comes to maintenance/repairs, it also helps that there is no Work Health and Safety/HSE regs to worry about, lots of deaths and accidents is of course a downside, and yes the are very organised, and protected....

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Nothing special about the dive gear they use other than it's all very second/third hand and cobbled together. Loads of ex commercial stuff out there for sale cheap if you don't mind out of survey and un-certified equipment, dive compressors, hookah's, tanks, regs, umbilicals etc....ton's of stuff, and very much bush mechanics when it comes to maintenance/repairs, it also helps that there is no Work Health and Safety/HSE regs to worry about, lots of deaths and accidents is of course a downside, and yes the are very organised, and protected....

How about gasses, do they have access to that?

I've never dived myself but have spent a lot of time in a hyperbaric chamber and breathing air at 50m is a recipe for disaster.

One thing I learned in that chamber is that diving can be a very dangerous business when you start going deep.

[Interceptor]

explosives and an electromagnet?

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

How about gasses, do they have access to that?

I've never dived myself but have spent a lot of time in a hyperbaric chamber and breathing air at 50m is a recipe for disaster.

One thing I learned in that chamber is that diving can be a very dangerous business when you start going deep.

They don't gas dive, there not going that deep for that long, also these guys are some of the toughest you are ever likely to meet, they will free dive to depths that most would poop there pants at just thinking about it.

As I mentioned earlier, these guys have been doing it for years, most started going deep before you and I lost our pushbike training wheels, all the commercial divers I work with in the Oil & Gas have tons of respect for what they do diving wise, they might not agree with what they do for a crust, but diver to diver, most are in awe.....

[Mercury Bullet]

True.

I've seen some of the old aboriginies who free dived for oysters/pearls up at Broome.
The time they could spend under water without taking a breath was extraordinary.
Poor buggers couldn't walk by the time they were 40 though. It ravaged their bodies.

[2011G6E]

Steel poachers.
Have a look around at some news items from Africa and Eastern Europe at the things that get stolen.
I don't mean some cans for recycling...I mean things like kilometers of copper electricity cable, steel structures, etc.
Couple of memorable cases...virtually overnight a large steel span bridge in Turkey was stolen. The whole thing. Cut up and removed.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/sh...shed-overnight
Another one was in Eastern Europe when a train driver was cruising along and in foggy conditions he thought the track ahead looked "odd" so he stopped for a look. Something like 2 kilometers of track had been cut up and removed...

Cutting up and stealing rusty old warships from shallow water would be a doddle, especially using cheap expendable crew of workers.

[chamb0]

Originally Posted by JG66ME

The wrecks of HMS Exeter (Ex Battle of the River Plate) and HMS Electra (rescued survivors from HMS Hood and HMS Prince of Wales) have also disappeared in the same area. Just depressions in the seabed.

Really interested in where you heard this, as I have family history with the Electra and have done a bit of research on it. As far as I'm aware, the only recorded dive on it was done in 2003, when the poor old wreck was discovered intact although covered in old fishing nets.

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by chamb0

Really interested in where you heard this, as I have family history with the Electra and have done a bit of research on it. As far as I'm aware, the only recorded dive on it was done in 2003, when the poor old wreck was discovered intact although covered in old fishing nets.

Also HMS Encounter. Very sad and disappointing. Do a search, there is plenty of info out there. :-(

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...nging-java-sea

Right at the end:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Electra_(H27)

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by chamb0

Really interested in where you heard this, as I have family history with the Electra and have done a bit of research on it. As far as I'm aware, the only recorded dive on it was done in 2003, when the poor old wreck was discovered intact although covered in old fishing nets.

Nope...all gone...just a depression on the sea bed.