2012-30

JPFS1 · 12-01-2008, 12:37 AM

I thought i'd raise this with all the forums members as this is something of interest to me and would like to gauge some feedback.

I'm not going to get into the deep economic forces driving oil prices up and consumer sentiment of large cars down (globally)... let's just agree that we are certainly approaching a time like no other when it comes to perception and acceptance of large gas guzzling sedans, let alone V8 models for main stream bread and butter cars.

So i speculate....

the new ecoForce engines being developed by Ford....

What would be the reaction from the enthusiast on this forum if NO V8 was available AFTER Orion?

Now answer that if you can from a Jo Bloggs perspective....

Also note, the options are V6, V6T and V6TT, all direct injection and the performance derivatives more than compensate for the lack of a V8 in all areas...(maybe except sound) etc etc etc...

thanks.
Jem

fmc351 · 12-01-2008, 12:48 AM

Stuff like this is always annoying to me. A forced 6 can be quick, and often enough are quicker than the same manufacturers 8, but said 8 usually lacks the tech of the 6. Its like comparing apples to oranges.

If all things were equal, a 6 wont keep up with an 8. Im not criticising 6's, just the comparison angle. Its always a high tech 6 with turbo v old tech EFI 8. Put the same favourable designs into the 8, slap on a blower and bye bye 6.

JPFS1 · 12-01-2008, 01:00 AM

You are missing the point.

There are so many things i can bring into this that would show a lot of evidence to suggest the V8 or any other large dimension engine is dying a slow death.

I'll put it another way, would you be surprised if Ford Australia didn't offer an 8 post Orion?

RG · 12-01-2008, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEM

You are missing the point.

There are so many things i can bring into this that would show a lot of evidence to suggest the V8 or any other large dimension engine is dying a slow death.

I'll put it another way, would you be surprised if Ford Australia didn't offer an 8 post Orion?

I would be surprised, but judging by some of your other posts around here and your "insider" knowledge I think there is something more to this. Personally I think the V8 will live for at least another 10 odd years but it will be of a smaller capacity with a lot more technology.

Holden on the other hand may be in some trouble, you can't just keep upping capacity to make more power. This isn't the 1960's.

LTD Ute · 12-01-2008, 01:06 AM

As long as 8's (and indeed diesel 10's) are being produced for the
F100's, Dodge and Chev variants, they will always find their way
into a production model sport sedan / coupe.
If Toyota and BMW are offereing V8's then Ford and GMH will likewise.

MITCHAY · 12-01-2008, 01:11 AM

Well I'm not loyal to a particular engine configuration. As long as it puts out I don't care really if it's 2, 4, or 6 cylinders.

At this point in time I'd get a F6 or XR6T if I were to buy a Falcon anyway so no big loss for me really.

fmc351 · 12-01-2008, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEM

You are missing the point.

There are so many things i can bring into this that would show a lot of evidence to suggest the V8 or any other large dimension engine is dying a slow death.

I'll put it another way, would you be surprised if Ford Australia didn't offer an 8 post Orion?

Na I didnt miss the point, I ignored it and focused on the aspect of a 6 having the same power as an 8. Its an argument often put forward that theres no need for an 8 as the 6 is just as good, but its not a fair comparison due to tech differences.

Ford axed the 351, it axed the 8 altogether, Holden dumped the 308 in favour of the 253 and returned with the 5.0 and then the 350. its been done before so no, it wouldnt surprise me. Its inevitable given petrol prices and oil supplies, Im just not willing to speculate when. The market is changing as said, its not the 60's or 70's, but Im a child of the 70's so its in me to favour an 8 while respecting anything with power (incl. Rotaries). Ford will sell what the market wants, with reference to variables about what is still feasible given extraneous factors like fuel supplies and costs.

wodahs · 12-01-2008, 01:56 AM

let me put it this way
as long as i can get an 8 and fuel it i will
thats like asking me if i cant buy a ford what will i do

**Falcon Coupe** · 12-01-2008, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEM

What would be the reaction from the enthusiast on this forum if NO V8 was available AFTER Orion?

Despair i imagine, some would buy the next best thing (V6TT), others would turn to the opposition to satisfy there V8 needs.

If everyone dropped the V8 fine, if Ford were the first to do it ?
Surely they learned from it in the 80' losing a whole generation of V8 fans.

ClevlndStemer · 12-01-2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedXR347

Holden on the other hand may be in some trouble, you can't just keep upping capacity to make more power. This isn't the 1960's.

They're not the only ones.
Mercedes are now at 6.2l for their V8.

atec77 · 12-01-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEM

I thought i'd raise this with all the forums members as this is something of interest to me and would like to gauge some feedback.

I'm not going to get into the deep economic forces driving oil prices up and consumer sentiment of large cars down (globally)... let's just agree that we are certainly approaching a time like no other when it comes to perception and acceptance of large gas guzzling sedans, let alone V8 models for main stream bread and butter cars.

So i speculate....

the new ecoForce engines being developed by Ford....

What would be the reaction from the enthusiast on this forum if NO V8 was available AFTER Orion?

Now answer that if you can from a Jo Bloggs perspective....

Also note, the options are V6, V6T and V6TT, all direct injection and the performance derivatives more than compensate for the lack of a V8 in all areas...(maybe except sound) etc etc etc...

thanks.
Jem

A well made v8 of similar capacity will provide better efficiency than a same sized 6 , add some tech and you have a better motor with the 8 pots.As an example the 4l Toyota is incrdibly tough and has excellent fuel and power response , add some boost and they have more breathing than almost any current 6 with a fundamentally unbreakable design , check out the Audi v8.. amazing car and sounds wonderful when it's stamoed ..

Bossxr8 · 12-01-2008, 11:19 AM

You're forgetting that Ford will have a twin force version of the new V8, with claims of the big power of a V8 with the economy of a V6. Best of both worlds. With the amount of V8's Holden are selling Ford would have to be absolutely retarded to drop the V8 again, surely they learnt their lessons from the past.

**Falcon Coupe** · 12-01-2008, 11:29 AM

The typical AFF Tangent arises, i see maybe two on topic answers.

The question is:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEM

What would be the reaction from the enthusiast on this forum if NO V8 was available AFTER Orion?
thanks.
Jem

Powdered Toast Man · 12-01-2008, 11:43 AM

To answer the question: as long as dropping V8s is a trend that other manufacturers are also taking then I don't think enthusiasts will mind too much and will adapt. As long as there is something to be enthused by we're all good lol. The old school V8 crowd will always bemoan it and reminisce about the good ol' days, but that happens.

Personally I don't think it will happen anytime soon. V8s are making a comeback and I think europe is leading the charge into the future with small capacity, high revving V8s and forced induction. That will be the way to go. I think diesel V8s will make a good showing too, all the low down torque of the traditional large capacity V8 (more in most cases) with better economy and they still have that meaty V8 sound.

fmc351 · 12-01-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

The typical AFF Tangent arises, i see maybe two on topic answers.

The question is:

Given his subsequent post, the question revolves around would you be surprised, when would it happen, and the reactions of people even if an equivalent substitute was available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEM

You are missing the point.

There are so many things i can bring into this that would show a lot of evidence to suggest the V8 or any other large dimension engine is dying a slow death.

I'll put it another way, would you be surprised if Ford Australia didn't offer an 8 post Orion?

So far the answers have focused on varying parts of those questions. There is no equivalent, only unfair comparisons. No one knows when they would, but can offer reasons why they shouldnt by reference to the past and current opposition practices, and each of these responses on their own by default display the reaction of the poster.

FalconXV · 12-01-2008, 01:06 PM

I think the V8 is a necessary part of the lineup, but can empathise that it is becoming increasingly impractical. The Falcon has developed its history and heritage with a V8 model so to restrict this to XR8 and GT for mere image purposes would be the way to go. i hope ford brings out a frugal alternative at the bottom of the range too .

asusdragon · 12-01-2008, 01:16 PM

me personaly i not to fussed by a V8 or I6 soon to be V6, so if ford did drop the V8 oh well i would still be able to get a really powerfull 6. but i dont see them doing it i personly think they will either go down two road, if there is still a market for V8 in say 10years or whatever (still selling and selling enough to warrent designing the engine), they will looking in to more hi tech engines with a smaller capacity, so DI, TT, etc etc. but if there isnt enough selling to warrent the V* i think you will see them droping off pretty quickly, not sure who would go first though for main stream V8's (ford GM) maybe ford due to GM using the V8 in more applictions.

LeadFoot81 · 12-01-2008, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEM

I thought i'd raise this with all the forums members as this is something of interest to me and would like to gauge some feedback.

I'm not going to get into the deep economic forces driving oil prices up and consumer sentiment of large cars down (globally)... let's just agree that we are certainly approaching a time like no other when it comes to perception and acceptance of large gas guzzling sedans, let alone V8 models for main stream bread and butter cars.

So i speculate....

the new ecoForce engines being developed by Ford....

What would be the reaction from the enthusiast on this forum if NO V8 was available AFTER Orion?

Now answer that if you can from a Jo Bloggs perspective....

Also note, the options are V6, V6T and V6TT, all direct injection and the performance derivatives more than compensate for the lack of a V8 in all areas...(maybe except sound) etc etc etc...

thanks.
Jem

It wouldnt surpirse me at all if manufacturers (in this case ford) started phasing out V8s.

As an enthusiast and V8 owner its dissapointing, turbo 6s etc just doesnt have that X factor...

From a 21st century Joe average point of view Im not fussed because new engines are making more than enough power, and petrol is getting more expensive everyday.

ClevlndStemer · 12-01-2008, 02:20 PM

Personally I wouldn't care if the V8 is dropped, the only decent one they have had since the re introduction is the one in the AU3 TS/TE50. The 6 that ford has (and will in the future) is a far better piece of kit.

vanman_75 · 12-01-2008, 02:26 PM

dont care i stil got me economical clevo.

Ghiadude · 12-01-2008, 03:30 PM

the fans would cry like they did last time. Then Ford will suffer sales losses like they did last time. This would breed yet another generation of sheep that only like holdens beause they kept the 8 like they did last time. then ford will bring it back and the cycle is complete. Holden have made the v8 work for them. HOW? theirs works - thats how. Dont drop the V8 because it isnt selling.... make it sell instead. 50% of holdens sold are V8 how many of fords sales are??

irlewy86 · 12-01-2008, 03:37 PM

I think the answer is obvious, the enthusiasts will be ****ed. But it will be a business decision none the less.

If the industry pulls its finger out and develops a decent battery electric motors will make far better performance cars. Torque accross the board and high RPM's.

I think thats what will matter most, if the V8 goes what do we get instead?

EF347 · 12-01-2008, 04:22 PM

I would be dissapointed -Proud Aussie, just love a bent Henry!!!
V6 Supercars - Naa, Just doesn't sound right

Walkinshaw · 12-01-2008, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fmc351

Holden dumped the 308 in favour of the 253 and returned with the 5.0 and then the 350

erm....the 253 was droped before the 308 was discontinued (returned as a carb'd 304).

LeadFoot81 · 12-01-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tx3dude

the fans would cry like they did last time. Then Ford will suffer sales losses like they did last time. This would breed yet another generation of sheep that only like holdens beause they kept the 8 like they did last time. then ford will bring it back and the cycle is complete. Holden have made the v8 work for them. HOW? theirs works - thats how. Dont drop the V8 because it isnt selling.... make it sell instead. 50% of holdens sold are V8 how many of fords sales are??

How many Fords/XRs sold are turbo powered? If Ford import and develop the TTV6, so its just as or more powerful and quicker than comparable V8s (ie Holden) how many 21st century enthusiasts will care if the v8 is dropped?

Fords original dropping of the V8 was a disaster because it wasnt handled properly, they had no equivalent 6 cylinder engine (and no sporty models, not even blinged out pov packs) handled properly the transition could be made.

I'd like them to keep the 8s tho.

Powdered Toast Man · 12-01-2008, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Fantastic_Ford

How many Fords/XRs sold are turbo powered? If Ford import and develop the TTV6, so its just as or more powerful and quicker than comparable V8s (ie Holden) how many 21st century enthusiasts will care if the v8 is dropped?

Fords original dropping of the V8 was a disaster because it wasnt handled properly, they had no equivalent 6 cylinder engine (and no sporty models, not even blinged out pov packs) handled properly the transition could be made.

I'd like them to keep the 8s tho.

Actually the EFI 4.1 in the XF was almost as powerful and as quick as the contemporary 5.0L V8s from Holden, and both the EFI 6 in the XE and the more powerful successor in the XF were highly regarded in their day.

Ford had S Packs in the XF which were the XR6s of the day with sports suspension, interior trim and sports instrumentation. Some even came with S pack exterior detailing. My old man owned one for 10 years.

EF347 · 12-01-2008, 05:31 PM

Dropping the V8 - How would aftermarket componentry fair..lot of speed shops out there prodomently specialists in either small block ford or chev.

ivorya · 12-01-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JEM

You are missing the point.

There are so many things i can bring into this that would show a lot of evidence to suggest the V8 or any other large dimension engine is dying a slow death.

I'll put it another way, would you be surprised if Ford Australia didn't offer an 8 post Orion?

No!! I wouldn't be surprised!!!!!! However, We (Ford) has dropped the v8 in the past and i think we're now seeing the concequences of the actions with the size of the red army. How many people back then went red? and now we're seeing son's/daughters of these people buying 'What daddy/Mummy drive' Can Ford economically accept more people leaving their brand because of an engine option??
I think it's great that Ford are developing these new, more fuel efficient engines, but i think they need to remember, there's alot of people out their who don't care about fuel prices, they've got fuel cards or are just financially right, they just can't turn their back on these people. And lets face it, it's a tick the box option that may cost another $3000...

fmc351 · 12-01-2008, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkinshaw

erm....the 253 was droped before the 308 was discontinued (returned as a carb'd 304).

Erm, there were a series of VH's that only had a 6 or 253 (I think even the starfire was gone by then, so it cant be early on in VH as they did doa 4 banger version VH), no 5.0 could be bought. IIRC the last VH's saw a return of the 5.0 alongside the 253 due to the fans reactions. Im not sure if it was the last VH's or midway, but the 5.0 was dropped first and Holden only had the 253 V8, then the 253 was dropped completely. The early VK still had a 5.0 308 and no 253, the LV2 4.9 was introduced part way through VK and continued in the VL.

fmc351 · 12-01-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivorya

No!! I wouldn't be surprised!!!!!! However, We (Ford) has dropped the v8 in the past and i think we're now seeing the concequences of the actions with the size of the red army. How many people back then went red? and now we're seeing son's/daughters of these people buying 'What daddy/Mummy drive' Can Ford economically accept more people leaving their brand because of an engine option??
I think it's great that Ford are developing these new, more fuel efficient engines, but i think they need to remember, there's alot of people out their who don't care about fuel prices, they've got fuel cards or are just financially right, they just can't turn their back on these people. And lets face it, it's a tick the box option that may cost another $3000...

Even before Ford dropped the V8, Holden fans outnumbered Ford fans, it dates back to holden being branded the 'Aussie' car. Never was, never will be, no more so than any Ford, still doesnt matter that huge numbers of people believed it.

During the 70's and 80's, there was an association of Ford and Chrysler to Europeans ('wog chariots'), while the Holden was for Aussies. Wasnt exactly right, but like many stereotypes there was some truth to it. Over time many Europeans kids were favouring the Monaro etc (why? dont know, but I cant say a HK327 or HT-HQ350 Monaro isnt nice, to be honest I prefer them over the Ford coupe, although I like the Ford coupe so dont anyone get their knickers in a knot), and there was a shift from who owned what. The stereotype no longer has any truth to it.

Thats my take on it anyway growing up in that time.