Potential NSW L and P speed limits changed

[casabonka]

Sorry if already posted, but couldn't find anything

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/f...215-2bgbz.html

Learner drivers will be allowed to drive faster than 80 km/h if the NSW government adopts the advice of police and motor safety experts.

A government-appointed advisory group has met the Roads Minister, Duncan Gay, to propose a revised licensing scheme that could result in L-platers driving at up to 110km/h on freeways, as allowed in some other states.

The changes, supported by the NRMA, could also reduce the hours learners must log before progressing to their P-plates. But learners might be forced to complete a hands-on driver training course as a trade-off for fewer hours on the road.

The approach represents a big turnaround in attitudes to driver training. Traditionally, government-appointed safety regulators have been dismissive of driver training, arguing that it contributes to over-confidence in young drivers.

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It is understood that Mr Gay supports the idea but a spokeswoman insists there has been no formal consideration of the advisory group's recommendations.

Revisions to the learner licensing scheme will be announced in the first half of 2013. If approved, the changes will align NSW with Victoria and Queensland, where learners can drive at up 110 km/h. In Western Australia and South Australia, learner drivers are limited to 100km/h.

Learners in the Northern Territory, Tasmania and the ACT are limited to 80km/h.

An experienced NSW police officer said the rise in speeds for learners made sense. ''They need to know what a car does at freeway speeds before they go out there and do it on their own,'' he said.

''At the moment there's too big a speed disparity between learner drivers and other drivers on the freeway and it just causes more problems than it solves. They get out there and have people tooting and giving them the middle finger.''

The changes are being considered as thousands of learners prepare to hit the road during summer holidays, trying to log hours behind the wheel on long trips with families.

The NRMA president, Wendy Machin, says the group's members and members of the public complain of being stuck behind learners on the state's freeways, especially in summer.

''Parents see the holidays as a good time to get the logged hours up and you have learners grinding along at 80km/h when it would probably be safer for them to do the same speed as the rest of the traffic,'' she said.

The Pedestrian Council chairman, Harold Scruby, opposes any increase, saying young drivers should learn to handle a car before being allowed to drive at 100km/h. ''We all get stuck behind L-plate drivers from time to time,'' he said. ''It's something you have to accept.''

Sydney-based driver training veteran Ian Luff said many new drivers were intimidated by high closing speeds on NSW highways.

"Vehicles interact better if there is no speed disparity,'' he said. "We've put more than 1500 learner drivers through our program. They're all freaked out at the closing speed, particularly when they are on freeways.''

Thoughts? I think it will help stop a lot of anger towards younger drivers, and hopefully have younger drivers better educated!

[flappist]

Yes good idea.

Using reality as a basis for laws rather than theory and agenda is, I suspect, a scary concept for many.
I hope this goes ahead.

[Silver Ghia]

Certainly would make it a lot safer by reducing lane changing and overtaking by other drivers, which can easily cause serious accidents.

[deesun]

Ive never been a fan of this idea and have been criticle of the fools who arent watching the road in front and needlessly have to brake and then swervr because they arent watching. But I am also open to the idea as well. Maybe 100k could be a maximum. Most in the left lane are only doing that anyway.

[Neale]

Finally they are starting to see the light with quotes like these..



"Vehicles interact better if there is no speed disparity,'' he said. "We've put more than 1500 learner drivers through our program. They're all freaked out at the closing speed, particularly when they are on freeways.''

Totally agree with this statement. There is nothing more intimidating driving along a freeway forced to do 80 & theres a B Double closing at sometimes more than 20kph faster with no where to go, then they ride your *** because your doing 80kph.
I dont think its safe for a learner to do 100kph on a freeway when they first get in a car, but with the amount of time that you have to spend on your "L's" these days racking up the hours, in a lot of situations its would be safer for them to be doing 100/110kph

"The approach represents a big turnaround in attitudes to driver training. Traditionally, government-appointed safety regulators have been dismissive of driver training, arguing that it contributes to over-confidence in young drivers."

I'm glad that the government is starting to finaly see sence in driver training & education. Their old approach of driver training contributes to over confidence should be filed away with the old notion that seatbelts were dangerious & its safer to get thrown clear of the accident.

[grandpa_spec_F6]

Just drove from Coffs to Brisbane today... two major holdups were:

A.) Learner at 80km/h stuck on a section with no passing lanes for ages, ~8 or so cars backed up behind. Some were so intent on getting in front when the passing lane came to a close they nearly merged the learner onto the shoulder when the passing lane ended.

B.) Red P-Plater, see above.

I should also give an honorable mention to all the speed cameras in NSW, "I've never felt so safe in my life, it was a pleasure to know there would be almost no chance of an accident thanks to the strict speed and fatigue monitoring cameras" /sarcasm

Funny thing was the only road rage I copped was in QLD, Volvo driver merged in front of me and slammed on his brakes because he didn't see the speed camera ahead, I merged out from behind him and he yelled at me.... then sped up to block me passing... volvo drivers

[zilo]

Cool...they can now drive at the same speed as others.
Now the learner drivers in NSW will be able to sit in the right hand lane same as in Victoria.
Just like mum and dad do when they drive.

[Ben73]

I drove the F3 yesterday and the only times it felt dangerous was when everyone caught up to an L plater at the same time and everyone wanted to pass them straight away so it was a mad dash for the right lane as always.

[BDA074]

Agree. Great idea. Doing 30km slower than rest of the traffic is just dangerous. I have a 16yo son and would prefer to be in the car when he does 110km/hr for the first time...

[rancidpunx]

Definitely some sense in the idea although the usual suspects have to have their say against the idea.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Neale

Finally they are starting to see the light with quotes like these..

"Vehicles interact better if there is no speed disparity,'' he said. "We've put more than 1500 learner drivers through our program. They're all freaked out at the closing speed, particularly when they are on freeways.''

Totally agree with this statement. There is nothing more intimidating driving along a freeway forced to do 80 & theres a B Double closing at sometimes more than 20kph faster with no where to go, then they ride your *** because your doing 80kph.

Originally Posted by Ben73

I drove the F3 yesterday and the only times it felt dangerous was when everyone caught up to an L plater at the same time and everyone wanted to pass them straight away so it was a mad dash for the right lane as always.

I've just come back from 6 months driving in Europe where trucks are limited to 90 km/h (thank god) and general motorway traffic is doing up to 130 (and even up to over 200!) and there is really no problem with slow and fast vehicles interacting, it all goes very smoothly.

The whole idea of motorways is that vehicles can move at varying speeds as long as slower vehicles always move over to the kerb lane/s. In this sense there is nothing wrong with learners doing slower speeds. In Europe I think learners are allowed to do the higher speeds and encouraged to practice that, so that they can understand the issues of high speed and overtaking in a variable speed environment.

One thing that spooks me back here, apart from the general standard of driving being all over the shop, is the aggressiveness of some of the truck driving, quite dangerous really. In Europe they're more like train drivers, more regulated. Driving a truck up someone's clacker at 110 in Germany for example will have you in front of a magistrate! Doesn't help learners to learn when they have to cope with that.

[Trevor 57]

As a former (Victorian based) driver trainer, I could never understand the NSW laws in regard to limiting L platers, it was lost on me.

Kids need to learn to drive in 'real' conditions, they need to experience 110 km/h, they are under supervision so what is the problem?

They could come in to Victoria and do 110 legally

And to top it all off I have seen some really stupid driving around kids doing 80km/h on L's in rural areas, 80 on a freeway is fine, easy to overtake, but on 2 laned roads people can be dowright unsafe trying to overtake a car doing 80km/h

[mike_nofx]

Yep I like the idea, because it does get frustrating stuck behind a slower L plate driver when there are no overtake lanes.

Worst places I have seen is heading down the coast in NSW's South coast, usually in holiday periods when roads are packed.

[82XD393.3v]

now they need to do something with the oldies that drive up to 40kmph below the speed limit on the highways

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by 82XD393.3v

now they need to do something with the oldies that drive up to 40kmph below the speed limit on the highways

With an indicator left on, in the right lane, a crocheted blanket with a hat sitting on top on the rear shelf and eyes just millimetres above the steering wheel.

But what can they do?

[Simple6]

That Harold Scruby bloke is a bit off the mark saying they need more experience before doing 110kmh and that's why he opposes it? Is he making the assumption that the first thing an L plater will do after passing the test is head to a freeway and do 110kmh? Not unless the parents are suicidal, after all they still need to be supervised. Or maybe he agrees with the idea of getting driver training before 110kmh.

Either way 110kmh was fast back pre-1990s - with cars built today 110kmh is a crawl. Though that's another argument.

[Hayden1]

Finally! I fall asleep going 80. If this doesn't go ahead then there needs to be an update with the learning process (or the lessons in the book) that involve pulling over and letting people through, of course on single laned roads..

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Simple6

That Harold Scruby bloke is a bit off the mark saying they need more experience before doing 110kmh and that's why he opposes it? Is he making the assumption that the first thing an L plater will do after passing the test is head to a freeway and do 110kmh? Not unless the parents are suicidal, after all they still need to be supervised. Or maybe he agrees with the idea of getting driver training before 110kmh.

Either way 110kmh was fast back pre-1990s - with cars built today 110kmh is a crawl. Though that's another argument.

Scruby is a rabid car hater.

His agenda is the restriction of privately owned motor vehicles to "valid reason" and type of vehicle to "required type". (e.g. weekend cruising is not a valid reason and Falcon GTs are not a required type)

He will do any and everything possible to make driving and ownership more difficult for car enthusiasts.

[buddy92]

What's the speed limit of us red P plates? We are doing 90 and a L plater hammers past doing 110?

[Streets]

I'm usually pretty happy with most speed limits but agree that arbitrarily limiting learners and P-platers is one of the most idiotic ideas about road safety getting around.

This is Scruby's opinion:

The Pedestrian Council chairman, Harold Scruby, opposes any increase, saying young drivers should learn to handle a car before being allowed to drive at 100km/h. ''We all get stuck behind L-plate drivers from time to time,'' he said. ''It's something you have to accept.''

(from http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/f...215-2bgbz.html)

First of all, I don't know why the president of the jaywalkers sympathy club is being consulted regarding highway speed limits; pedestrians have nothing to do with highways. Secondly, he seems to think that the worst thing that can happen is that you get stuck behind an L-plater, and that it's just a matter of inconvenience. But in reality, a car going at 80kph on a roadway where all other traffic is going 100-110 is not inconvenient, it is dangerous -- especially when merging. It puts the safety of the learner/P-plater at risk, as well as the safety of everyone else on the road around them. Not only that, it fails to teach the young driver the proper techniques and behaviour that they will need when they obtain their open licence. Why would you train a driver to obey a road rule that won't exist for them anymore when they get their full licence? It's absurd.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by buddy92

What's the speed limit of us red P plates? We are doing 90 and a L plater hammers past doing 110?

L Platers are under supervision, you aren't

[ltd]

If Harold Screwball is against it, then I'm definitely for it.
I swear this guy is such a renegade dead***t that Toyota should name a Camry after him; "Toyota Camry Scruby Edition" - it's slow, old, over-imposing and has too many brain farts.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Hayden1

there needs to be an update with the learning process (or the lessons in the book) that involve pulling over and letting people through, of course on single laned roads..

Man have you hit a vital nail on the head there! This should be imbued right through driving culture here - consideration for others around (behind) you.

If there was a single difference I could define between European and Australian driving practice I would point out that in Europe the whole driver mentality is focussed on whether you are holding someone up and they are trained, seemingly from birth, to think that way. So if you see someone behind wants to go faster than you, you pull to the right (i.e. our left) onto the usually wide road verge (or at first opportunity) and let them pass.

In Australia the prevailing mindset seems to be "staying in front at all costs", so we have that defining country road image of the small ute doing 80 in a 100 zone, with a wide verge at the roadside, and a kilometre-long tailback behind him. (There's a hill you come down near Tomerong on the Princes Highway where you get a great view of these tailbacks from the hill before you join them!) The other manifestation of this is the driver who'll madly overtake, get in front, then slow down to his preferred speed.

There needs to be a shift in mentality from the learning process onwards, through all age groups, to this sort of more considerate thinking. That's what I think of when I see a learner driver with a long tailback and the (often "professional") instructor sitting alongside obviously NOT saying to the driver: "have you checked your mirror for a tailback so you can move into the verge as soon as you can to let them pass?"

Edit: of course I remembered that in Europe, when the verge comes to an end the drivers behind will let the slower driver back in and wait for the next opportunity. In Australia the ones behind will cram past to the bitter end and force the slow driver into the ditch rather than let him back in. Well that's another thing for the development of a considerate mentality!

[Franco Cozzo]

I don't see what the big deal of 110km/h is for learner drivers, my first time driving, my driving instructor takes me to Kyneton and then lets me take over driving around the housing estates, crawling around at 30km/h.

Then he takes me onto the Calder freeway to go home and I'm doing 110km/h 30 minutes later.

[buddy92]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

L Platers are under supervision, you aren't

So P plate limits are staying the same, 90km red 100km green.

Being under supervision doesn't make the car any different.

[Trevor 57]

No, but there is deemed to an "adult" in control, and legally the accompanying driver is in charge as well

[xtremerus]

Agree with all the others that 80kph for L-platers is dangerous on highways.
Just watch these Xmas holidays conga lines, with them all getting their hours up.

[MRG6ET]

Originally Posted by ltd

If Harold Screwball is against it, then I'm definitely for it.
I swear this guy is such a renegade dead***t that Toyota should name a Camry after him; "Toyota Camry Scruby Edition" - it's slow, old, over-imposing and has too many brain farts.

And don't forget that he is the President of the pedestrian council that he set up himself.

Why the any one even listen to him is beyond me. He is an absolute deadshit.

[BENT_8]

I find it ironic that the same people who advocate driver discretion when talking about speed limits find it acceptible that L platers should be able to do speeds to match the rest of us.

I suppose all L platers should be able to do 255k/hr now as long as they believe it is safe to do so late at night on a freeway with no one else around...

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I find it ironic that the same people who advocate driver discretion when talking about speed limits find it acceptible that L platers should be able to do speeds to match the rest of us.

I suppose all L platers should be able to do 255k/hr now as long as they believe it is safe to do so on a lonely freeway with no one else around...

Well I'm in Victoria and I did 110km/h on my Ls and I'm still alive.

Unfortunately for some.