Holden Falcon... :s

Bens_ELXR6 · 01-05-2007, 06:31 PM

Gday people.

I was talking to a mechanic of a saloon racing team earlier today. His team is sponsored by Ford, and they usualy run EF/EL's. With new unused/un-needed engines from Ford.

He told me that the new VE commodore runs a lot of Ford parts.
Eg. Ford heads, rear and front suspension setup to name a few (The list went on for a while!). The block is Holden, however as they are not happy with it, next year they will use Ford blocks.
I do not know if he was talking about the V6 or V8s. As he said Heads, I doubt the V6.

If its true, well I dont know what they spent the billions of dollars on devaloping this car, when they took the design from 4 or 5 different cars (Nothing origional, except the badges), and took the running gear and suspension from their rival.

I dont know how true this is, however this guy seems to know what he is talking about (as a team machanic would).

Does anyone know if this is true? And if it is, can somone shed more light on this please ?

Cheers,

Ben

**Polyal** · 01-05-2007, 06:33 PM

Oh my...this guy is working on your car?

DJL351 · 01-05-2007, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bens_ELXR6

Gday people.

I was talking to a mechanic of a saloon racing team earlier today. His team is sponsored by Ford, and they usualy run EF/EL's. With new unused/un-needed engines from Ford.

He told me that the new VE commodore runs a lot of Ford parts.
Eg. Ford heads, rear and front suspension setup to name a few (The list went on for a while!). The block is Holden, however as they are not happy with it, next year they will use Ford blocks.
I do not know if he was talking about the V6 or V8s. As he said Heads, I doubt the V6.

If its true, well I dont know what they spent the billions of dollars on devaloping this car, when they took the design from 4 or 5 different cars (Nothing origional, except the badges), and took the running gear and suspension from their rival.

I dont know how true this is, however this guy seems to know what he is talking about (as a team machanic would).

Does anyone know if this is true? And if it is, can somone shed more light on this please ?

Cheers,

Ben

Sigh...... here we go!

Race car or road car?????

Road car has no engine or driveline parts in common with current or future Falcons.

Race car, as in V8 Supercar, does run the same "designed" engine and driveline gear.

D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

Oh my...this guy is working on your car?

hehehehehehehehe..... :togo:

webby_191189 · 01-05-2007, 06:37 PM

The rear suspension was based on the ford design. So in other words holden copied fords design

**Fordman1** · 01-05-2007, 06:43 PM

Sounds like the V8 supercars.

Project blueprint means that some parts maybe shared, not sure which ones though. Heads ? Doubt it. But other parts perhaps.

blur1 · 01-05-2007, 06:44 PM

what a crock! has he got eyes?

Bens_ELXR6 · 01-05-2007, 06:54 PM

As is common for EVERYONE to see, they have nicked the designs of many cars. Why wouldnt they use up designs for components off other cars too?.

Webby has already said they used a ford designed rear suspension, I personaly dont find it difficult to beleive they would use up other ford designed parts.

I am talking about road cars that roll off the assembly line. Obviously the parts itself will not come from ford in a large truck with "FORD PARTS" on the side of it, but he suggested to me that they are parts designed by ford.

And please keep to the topic, and do not flame me, or the guy who told me this, as: THAT IS NOT THE TOPIC. Agree or disagree with the topic. Not the people.

Cheers, Ben

sleekism · 01-05-2007, 07:06 PM

Didnt the Holdens used SVO blocks in supercars during the 90's????

**Fordman1** · 01-05-2007, 07:06 PM

Disagree. Totally wrong. Not true. He's mistaken. Not likely. Not a chance. Incorrect. Absolutely not. No way. Nonsense.

1. Ford parts / designs are protected by copyright / intellectual ownership / design laws.

2. Ford would NEVER allow GM to use 'their' designs for anything bigger than a rivet or threaded screw !!

pertuan · 01-05-2007, 07:09 PM

I doubt they would use the same blocks seeing as the configuration and capacities are different. Ford uses I6 and Holden use V6. Ford uses Boss V8, Holden uses Gen4 V8. As for other parts, I would think it is a real possibility. They have common suppliers don't they?

And by other parts, I mean ancillary components, that are non essential.

**Fordman1** · 01-05-2007, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pertuan

They have common suppliers don't they?

For off the shelf stuff it's possible (hardware, and maybe transmissions etc).

But for large vehicle systems (eg: suspension, engine, electrical & electronic systems) which are Ford Proprietary designs (98% of parts) - NO WAY !!!!

These larger system components may be made by suppliers but they are made under license (and in most cases with Ford tooling) and can not be sold to anyone else.

Ford designed running gear ? Suspension designs ? ABSOLUTELY NOT !!!

DJL351 · 01-05-2007, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Disagree. Totally wrong. Not true. He's mistaken. Not likely. Not a chance. Incorrect. Absolutely not. No way. Nonsense. !!

Here is your answer sir.

Gobes32 · 01-05-2007, 07:29 PM

Does this mean Orion will have a Gen 4 under the bonnet? My goodness.

Bens_ELXR6 · 01-05-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Disagree. Totally wrong. Not true. He's mistaken. Not likely. Not a chance. Incorrect. Absolutely not. No way. Nonsense.

1. Ford parts / designs are protected by copyright / intellectual ownership / design laws.

2. Ford would NEVER allow GM to use 'their' designs for anything bigger than a rivet or threaded screw !!

If that is the case, whats "project blueprint" mentioned earlier. I dont know of project blueprint, but I was wondering what this extends to.

But there is no denying the fact they used Ford 'inspired' headlights(inspired is pretty much the same as designed when it comes to style in my books).

Regardless, there is obviously mixed opinions here. Which is good, would be boring if everyone thaught the same thing lol

Cheers,

Ben

Bens_ELXR6 · 01-05-2007, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acosta32

Does this mean Orion will have a Gen 4 under the bonnet? My goodness.

Your generaltisation isnt totaly accurate
Well, I mean this in the fact that I'm talking about specificly the VE commodore using non-holden parts.

But who knows what the Orion will come out with. It might just come out with a Holden designed V8, or it might come out with a go-kart inspired single potter? But I wouldnt write off the idea of a Orion with a Gen 4 inspired engine. Who knows, most people wont know untill much later on I guess?

**Fordman1** · 01-05-2007, 07:36 PM

Project blueprint was designed to make a level playing field and reduce costs in V8 supercars. These cars are really only a sillouette formula of tin top Australian sedan racing. The cars have really nothing in common with road cars except the basic shape.

Some basic parts are common from what I remember in the Holden and Ford V8 supercars.

The road cars are a completely different story though........

DJL351 · 01-05-2007, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bens_ELXR6

If that is the case, whats "project blueprint" mentioned earlier. I dont know of project blueprint, but I was wondering what this extends to.

V8 Supercars mate.

Bens_ELXR6 · 01-05-2007, 07:39 PM

Ah ok then, my appologies.

Bens_ELXR6 · 01-05-2007, 07:42 PM

A little off topic, but not totaly.
I heard that the Holden VE is overpowering the BF's this year in the V8 supercars. Does project blueprint assist in that? (ie. can the BF run the VE motor?). I dont think that would happen. But how far does this project blueprint extend? just simple things, or anything?
As you can tell, I'm not good with politics :P

all4ford · 01-05-2007, 10:12 PM

I think your mechanic friend would be talking about project blueprint in the V8 supercars. Both the holdens and fords run 5 litre injected engines with exact same head design. i.e. The chev engines the holden's are running have redesigned heads with the same even port spacing which is found on all fords (e.g. - - - - ) but different to the original chev design which has the two ports in the middle close together with a larger gap between each port on the outside of this (e.g. - -- -). They also run the exact same gearbox (hollinger 6 speed), differentials (modern developed diff similar to ford 9inch) and the holdens under project blue print have been allowed to replace their macpherson strut front suspension with double wish bone suspension which is similar to that found in ford road cars but different to that found in holden road cars. Add to this, the race cars are both put in a wind tunnel and the aero kit is designed so as to not give either manufacturer an advantage over the other. It kind of takes away from the Ford vs Holden rivalry so many of us enjoy, but its a winning formula that ensures the cars are as close as they are. What other category in the world has the top 20 separated by a total of 1 second in lap times?

flukey77 · 01-05-2007, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bens_ELXR6

A little off topic, but not totaly.
I heard that the Holden VE is overpowering the BF's this year in the V8 supercars. Does project blueprint assist in that? (ie. can the BF run the VE motor?). I dont think that would happen. But how far does this project blueprint extend? just simple things, or anything?
As you can tell, I'm not good with politics :P

Do not even compare the Falcon and Commodore V8 supercars to the actual Falcons and Commodores that the public can buy, the only thing that they have in common is the body shape! The front suspension is totally redesigned with both cars running the same setup, both cars use the same 9inch live rear axle and suspension, both use the same 6spd manual hollinger gearbox. The Falcons use a American Ford Motorsport 5L block, and the Commodores use a Chevy 5L racing engine. As previously mentioned, both engines are modified to make them as similar as possible.

Mate I wouldnt necessarily say that the Commodores are overpowering the Falcons, because the cars are so close its mainly just a battle between teams, not necessarily between the 2 brands. Currently the Tom Walkinshaw Racing team (which is the 4 car team that operates as the HSV and HRT teams) seem to be winning everything, but all the other cars in the top 10 are Falcon teams.

EDXRSW · 01-05-2007, 10:45 PM

Do not even compare the Falcon and Commodore V8 supercars to the actual Falcons and Commodores that the public can buy, the only thing that they have in common is the body shape!

even the body shapes are not the same as the road cars, things are changed that cannot been seen with out a measuring tape.

EDXRSW · 01-05-2007, 10:51 PM

Do not even compare the Falcon and Commodore V8 supercars to the actual Falcons and Commodores that the public can buy, the only thing that they have in common is the body shape!

even the body shapes are different to a road car

Bill_R · 01-05-2007, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bens_ELXR6

A little off topic, but not totaly.
I heard that the Holden VE is overpowering the BF's this year in the V8 supercars. Does project blueprint assist in that? (ie. can the BF run the VE motor?). I dont think that would happen. But how far does this project blueprint extend? just simple things, or anything?
As you can tell, I'm not good with politics :P

Holden aren't overpowering the Falcons.
The HRT and HSV teams have had a good showign so far but the rest of the Holdens are "also rans".
HRT and HSV have some controversy around them. Tom Walkinshaw has a big stake in both teams and owns and builds the cars. He leases them and his own expertise and that of his staff out to those teams. The two teams even share the same workshop. In effect they act like a single 4 car team but with the budget of 2 x 2 car teams and with resources that might be outside the budget allocation.

The Fords are doing very well over a number of cars. I expect and improvement with new engines for some teams due. it's the "working blokes" Holden's I feel sorry for. They struggle without the same support Walkinshaw and his mob provide.