R.i.p gm 1908-2011 rest in pieces

[HSVKILLA]

http://detroitnews.com/article/20111...-09-bankruptcy

And Ford keeps on truckin.

[csv8]

With the F Trucks!!

[jpd80]

Well, I see a company that screwed up big time but got of scot free thanks to the efforts of the
US government and UAW acting as debtor in Possession financing for GM when no one else would.

Now the New GM is all cashed up with $45 billion in the bank, they haven't learned a thing.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Well, I see a company that screwed up big time but got of scot free thanks to the efforts of the
US government and UAW acting as debtor in Possession financing for GM when no one else would.

Now the New GM is all cashed up with $45 billion in the bank, they haven't learned a thing....

This is exactly what I was thinking...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by lotski

This is exactly what I was thinking...

As of November 30, GMNA's truck inventory stands at 205,000 or 105 selling days supply.
With a new Silverado ready to for sale, GM will have heavy incentives onto existing stock and
if recent history is anything to go by, $6,000 to $10,000 cash on the hood will be offered to buyers.

Meanwhile, F Truck is steaming along with much tighter inventory, higher average transaction prices and low incentives....

Well done Ford.

[FPV+fteT3]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Well, I see a company that screwed up big time but got of scot free thanks to the efforts of the
US government and UAW acting as debtor in Possession financing for GM when no one else would.

Now the New GM is all cashed up with $45 billion in the bank, they haven't learned a thing....

Whilst I agree with this it's not exactly true they have learned that they can send to the wall their suppliers and not pay their bills and walk away with a clean slate. The GM board should say lets do it every 10 years or so and remain profitable all the parts we buy in for our vehicles would be free eventually. Only in the good 'ol USA.

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by jpd80

As of November 30, GMNA's truck inventory stands at 205,000 or 105 selling days supply.
With a new Silverado ready to for sale, GM will have heavy incentives onto existing stock and
if recent history is anything to go by, $6,000 to $10,000 cash on the hood will be offered to buyers.

Meanwhile, F Truck is steaming along with much tighter inventory, higher average transaction prices and low incentives....

Well done Ford.

Doesn't surprise me.
Where I am manufactures and supplies holden and Ford Aus with parts, building double for Holden what they do Ford....

[XBROO]

Looks like more commodores to the USA. LOL

[jpd80]

GM's business philosophy embodies that of old Detroit where manufacturers would "production"
themselves out of trouble. When ever a recession came along GM, Ford and Chrysler would keep factory
order books full ( because that's how managers and suppliers would make their money) and just clear that
excess stock with aggressive cash incentives, buyers seeing significant cash back would respond and
the process continued over and over.

In the mid 2000s, Ford realised that they were making lots of vehicles for fleets that made little or no money,
their customers were unimpressed because the huge discounts on new cars destroyed residual values on leased
and financed vehicles, forcing manufacturers to subveen leases by increasing residual and Ford to wear more losses.
Ford were bleeding money everywhere, the Performance Auto Group actually cost them close to $12 billion in losses
and with approx $13 billion in front product cycles coming, it was cheaper to cut losses than keep PAG going.

So Ford decided to sell, Avis, Aston Martin, Jaguar, land Rover and Volvo, stop producing all those low return or
loss making vehicles and in short, right size production to true market demand, the intent was to make less
and sell for higher prices.

GM and their fans laughed at Ford, thoughts the cuts and refinancing was unnecessary but Ford knew different.

Ford achieved everything GM did under Chapter 11 but kept control of the company and more importantly their reputation...


The situation is the same in Australia, you only have to look at the current local situations Ford and Holden
find them selves in, Holden is producing a lot of cars where Ford makes half but sells the lot, at good prices too...
Territory refresh increased average transaction prices by close to 10,000 as everyone wants the diesel and
hopefully, FGII updates will be enough to lure buyers into the show room and buy better appointed models.

Not sure what's happening with Holden. exports are pretty low but they're making lots of cars,
last month they made close to 6,000 Commodores and around 4,000 Cruze so if they're not exporting much,
where are all the cars sitting, are we seeing that with huge discounts underway at the moment?

In contrast, Ford is building to customer orders and dealer stock so not too much 2011 stock will be unsold.
If you look up an aerial shot of Broadmeadowes in January 2012, I have a feeling it will be very empty...

[mik]

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

Whilst I agree with this it's not exactly true they have learned that they can send to the wall their suppliers and not pay their bills and walk away with a clean slate. The GM board should say lets do it every 10 years or so and remain profitable all the parts we buy in for our vehicles would be free eventually. Only in the good 'ol USA.

yes it would be nice if the new GM would pay some remittance to the people and companys that got left out in the cold when it had it`s slate wiped clean.
doubtful it will happen though.

[Kryton]

If anyone thinks GM's reputation has been affected.........

[jpd80]

IMO, additional vehicles Ford should be building in Australia are those that command higher retail prices:
- Kuga
- Mondeo
- T6 "Everest" call it: Bronco ( current SUV sales in Asia is quite low)

These vehicles all offer opportunity to increase sales for Ford Australia while allowing modest
regional exports and being global vehicles, the outlays are not too bad, being plugged into Ford
Asia supply network would allow all of these vehicles to be built here.

[imugli]

Just had a look at nearmaps for Ford plant and Holden Elizabeth plant. Last pic Nov. 24 and there are definitely more cars in the yards at Holden than at Ford. Seems most of the cars that people were talking about on the lawn at Ford have gone...

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Not sure what's happening with Holden. exports are pretty low but they're making lots of cars,
last month they made close to 6,000 Commodores and around 4,000 Cruze so if they're not exporting much,
where are all the cars sitting, are we seeing that with huge discounts underway at the moment?

Six thousand??!!! Lets assume they sell 3,000 domestically - export another 1,500 - that's still 1500 Commodores sitting around idle. Sounds like a great way to run your business.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Ford_The_Win

Six thousand??!!! Lets assume they sell 3,000 domestically - export another 1,500 - that's still 1500 Commodores sitting around idle. Sounds like a great way to run your business.

Commodore exports have crashed, nothing to Middle Middle east, South America dried up overnight due to taxes, G8 is finisghed in the US.
Caprice is 200/mth to middle East and around 150/ mth to USA. Zeta was green lighted on the premise of around 40,000 exports PA.
Clearly, that is not happening and they are squealing that Cruze production might soon exceed Commodore.....

I have a feeling that GMNA agreed to take 10,000 Caprice PPV but that's looking very shaky,
are we looking at another $200 million write down for Holden?

A lot of people think Holden is fine and dandy because they appear to be by selling lots of vehicles
but it's what they have to do to get those sales, the financial outlay and return after discounting.
A lot of those sales could be zero nett profit.

[2011G6E]

Meanwhile Ford USA keeps producing real-world extremely relevant cars like the F150 Raptor I saw on Top Gear USA last night, which they gushed over enthusiastically..."It's got a new massive 6.2ltr V8, and while it is soft and squishy and handles horribly on bitumen, it's made for what people don't do, go off road! Yay!"

They really don't get it, do they...Australian makers keep making better and better family cars that are more and more efficient, and the Yanks live in thier own little world and build shoddy cars that pretend it's the 1950's...

I found a Ford dealer in the USA owned by people wit the same name as me, and sent off to ask if they had one of those dealership stickers, the little ones that go on the back window, and they ended up sending me a big box full of pens, key rings, Ford branded chrome number plate surrounds (unfortunately in USA licence plate sizes), calenders, and brochures. I had emailed some photos of our G6E and some details about it, and the guy that wrote back gave it high praise, and said he'd been keeping an eye on Ford Australia on the net and reckoned that they could sell hundreds of our Falcons a month if they could get them.

Ford in the USA shouldn't feel so smug...the GM problem shows that no matter how big a car maker you are, no matter how long and proud your history, if you make a few bad decisions you'll go down the gurgler easily.

[Powdered Toast Man]

Holden did this back in the '80s or '90s didnt they? They went bankrupt, ceased to be GMH and became GMHA or something. So this is common GM company practice.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Meanwhile Ford USA keeps producing real-world extremely relevant cars like the F150 Raptor I saw on Top Gear USA last night, which they gushed over enthusiastically..."It's got a new massive 6.2ltr V8, and while it is soft and squishy and handles horribly on bitumen, it's made for what people don't do, go off road! Yay!"

Don't swallow everything Clarkson and his mates say, here's the real deal:
F Truck sales last month were approximately 50,000 and of that, two thirds
of them were F150s - 34,000 with the folloing break down:

3.7 V6 - 5% or approx 1,700
Ecoboost V6 - 45% - or approx 15,000
5.0 V8 - 45% - or approx 15,000
6.2 V8 - 5% or approx 1,700

They really don't get it, do they...Australian makers keep making better and better family cars that are more and more efficient, and the Yanks live in thier own little world and build shoddy cars that pretend it's the 1950's...

Much bigger market where they pay much less for vehicles and fuel.
I think your view is very warped and out of date with reality in modern USA,
competition is fierce and car makers that don't meet the grade don't get the sales.

I found a Ford dealer in the USA owned by people wit the same name as me, and sent off to ask if they had one of those dealership stickers, the little ones that go on the back window, and they ended up sending me a big box full of pens, key rings, Ford branded chrome number plate surrounds (unfortunately in USA licence plate sizes), calenders, and brochures. I had emailed some photos of our G6E and some details about it, and the guy that wrote back gave it high praise, and said he'd been keeping an eye on Ford Australia on the net and reckoned that they could sell hundreds of our Falcons a month if they could get them.

Unfortunately, our Falcon is seen as a big engined mid sized car, not a large car,
that's also the reason why Pontiac G8 struggled, it was seen as overpriced
at $30k with most dealers adding $5K to be rid of them...not their only problem but still a big one.

Our G6e is stil lacking a lot of US accessories expected on this genereation
and due to cost controlling essential for local manufacturing adoption new features
is out of the question until those costs are amortized elsewhere, stuff like
park assist, active cruise control, My Ford Touch voice control, heated seats,
lane avoidance ... the list goes on and on but there's a lot odf stuff there that
would gap other manufacturers here...

Ford in the USA shouldn't feel so smug...the GM problem shows that no matter how big a car maker you are, no matter how long and proud your history, if you make a few bad decisions you'll go down the gurgler easily.

In the last two years, they have paid off $14 billion debt and made near $11 billion profit,
You don't do that by being complacent....

[imugli]

GM paid off $780m accrued losses and re-capitalised and restructured.

They've been through a number of official name changes over the years, but I don't think they've had much to do witht he financial structure.

The latest change, to GM Holden Ltd. took place in 2005.

This is as per the font of all knowledge (wikipedia) anyway...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by imugli

GM paid off $780m accrued losses and re-capitalised and restructured

They've been through a number of official name changes over the years, but I don't think they've had much to do witht he financial structure.

The latest change, to GM Holden Ltd. took place in 2005.

This is as per the font of all knowledge (wikipedia) anyway...

Wiki are playing fast and loose with the truth....

That was holden in the mid 1980s...

[imugli]

Originally Posted by jpd80

No, they split the company in two, asset stripped Old GM and laid as many debts off there as they could,
while the Government and UAW acted as Debtor in possession financiers taking stock in the company.
New GM was given an Escrow fund of approx $ 20 Billion to pay down debts and a cash float
which GM did proclaiming to the world that they had paid off all their debts..........

Now, the US government looks like losing $15 billion on sale of its stock, so too the UAW..
but who cares, GM is now sitting on $45 billion cash in hand and less than $6 billion debt....

Doesn't seem right.......GM is like a drunk that been cleaned up and given a full wallet.


Wiki are playing fast and loose with the truth....

My post was in response to the question about Holden, not specifically about GM :-)

I know GM got off scott free :-)

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by imugli

My post was in response to the question about Holden, not specifically about GM :-)

I know GM got off scott free :-)

Yeah, sorry now I see...

But part of Holden survivability was approx $350 million from US congerss to implement Cruze in Australia
as GM told Congress that Holden's long term viability depended on it and as such Holden received US funding
through its corporate...

- Without that money, Holden wouldn't be doing Cruze, the borrowing costs would make it out of the question...

[imugli]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yeah, sorry now I see...

But part of Holden survivability was approx $350 million from US congerss to implement Cruze in Australia
as GM told Congress that Holden's long term viability depended on it and as such Holden received US funding
through its corporate...

- Without that money, Holden wouldn't be doing Cruze, the borrowing costs would make it out of the question...

Again, I'm aware of that. :-) And we all know that without RuddBank's $200m line of credit (that was never drawn down on), Holden would have been sold to the Chinese...

The question specifically related to Holden being bailed out by GM in the 1980s and how it related to their name changes :-)

[jpd80]

Maybe so but this thread is about GM corporate...

Part of linking what's gone before with what's happening now. Manufacturing is a
separate entity to Engines but not sure of the debt/financial break down between the two ATM,
Holden are being very coy with debt levels so I'm thinking it's a lot as it has only made one or
two years profit since 2005.....my estimate on public records is around $750 million and why
you won't be seeing an all new commodore any time soon and very guarded about after 2014...

We know that FoA's internal debt sits about $450 million at the moment and that's where profits
were mostly channeled last year and the previous. So what the public sees is only a fraction of the sheets..
Ford ha time ion its hands to get that figure down before 2015, they'er surviving on small updates to get there.

Territory is doing the job, the turnaround in average transaction price means roughly an extra
$7M/mth revenue to Ford and dealers - you can see how that really adds up in no time flat...

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Premier Auto Group

Fixed.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Meanwhile Ford USA keeps producing real-world extremely relevant cars like the F150 Raptor I saw on Top Gear USA last night, which they gushed over enthusiastically..."It's got a new massive 6.2ltr V8, and while it is soft and squishy and handles horribly on bitumen, it's made for what people don't do, go off road! Yay!"

They really don't get it, do they...Australian makers keep making better and better family cars that are more and more efficient, and the Yanks live in thier own little world and build shoddy cars that pretend it's the 1950's...

I found a Ford dealer in the USA owned by people wit the same name as me, and sent off to ask if they had one of those dealership stickers, the little ones that go on the back window, and they ended up sending me a big box full of pens, key rings, Ford branded chrome number plate surrounds (unfortunately in USA licence plate sizes), calenders, and brochures. I had emailed some photos of our G6E and some details about it, and the guy that wrote back gave it high praise, and said he'd been keeping an eye on Ford Australia on the net and reckoned that they could sell hundreds of our Falcons a month if they could get them.

Ford in the USA shouldn't feel so smug...the GM problem shows that no matter how big a car maker you are, no matter how long and proud your history, if you make a few bad decisions you'll go down the gurgler easily.

The days of Ford US building shoddy cars is long gone. Their quality has gone through the roof, they are ranked pretty highly in the JD Power quality surveys over there now. I even think Ford owned Lincoln was 2nd overall, and I think Ford was 5th, better than most of the big Euros and most Jap brands.

[Nikked]

[QUOTE=jpd80],
Holden are being very coy with debt levels so I'm thinking it's a lot as it has only made one or
two years profit since 2005.....my estimate on public records is around $750 million and why
you won't be seeing an all new commodore any time soon and very guarded about after 2014...QUOTE]


I tell you what, you look at the VT-VZ era of commodores, compared to the VE...


The VT platform had countless variants, multiple concepts, and 4 major updates.

The VE on the otherhand has had little happen to it...

Either GM-H lost money on the VT era, or the money isn't there to waste.

[jpd80]

[QUOTE=Nikked]

Originally Posted by jpd80

,
Holden are being very coy with debt levels so I'm thinking it's a lot as it has only made one or
two years profit since 2005.....my estimate on public records is around $750 million and why
you won't be seeing an all new commodore any time soon and very guarded about after 2014...QUOTE]


I tell you what, you look at the VT-VZ era of commodores, compared to the VE...


The VT platform had countless variants, multiple concepts, and 4 major updates.

The VE on the otherhand has had little happen to it...

Either GM-H lost money on the VT era, or the money isn't there to waste.

That V-Car was an Opel design adapted to Australian conditions, a platform shared with GM's European division.
A lot more things were possible then because costs relative to competitors was much lower,
these days a Commodore and falcon is much more expensive to build compared to the competition.

I'm not trying to say that Holden or Ford are stoney broke, just that they have to watch their pennys with local cars.
You see it with what's being done with Fusion/Taurus and Malibu/Impala, those cars are getting seriously good...

[imugli]

[QUOTE=Nikked]

Originally Posted by jpd80

,
Holden are being very coy with debt levels so I'm thinking it's a lot as it has only made one or
two years profit since 2005.....my estimate on public records is around $750 million and why
you won't be seeing an all new commodore any time soon and very guarded about after 2014...QUOTE]


I tell you what, you look at the VT-VZ era of commodores, compared to the VE...


The VT platform had countless variants, multiple concepts, and 4 major updates.

The VE on the otherhand has had little happen to it...

Either GM-H lost money on the VT era, or the money isn't there to waste.

I think back to the countless threads titled "Why can't Ford build x concept or y concept?" The R5 ute was one, the 300+ coupe was another (After all, Holden had Monaro and Crewman). Everything Holden build Ford should build too, seemed to be the mantra.

It looks like FoA may just have known what they were / are doing after all...

[imugli]

I think the thing that has hurt Holden the most is the dying in the **** of their exports.

As you mentioned jpd, they basically don't exist at the moment. So all of a sudden, a large (by Oz standards) $1billion budget for what was supposed to be a "world" car seems awfully expensive for a one market car.

If I remember correctly, the ute only got the green light based on export numbers, which haven't eventuated, and the same went for the wagon.

As you have mentioned, PPV isn't selling and they're not selling LWB cars here, either. The budget for LWB, if I remember correctly was based on exports to Middle East, which have dried up because of poor quality.

For years Ford have been lambasted for not having an export program for Falcon and the press have continually said that is the chink in it's armour - it's a 1 market car. FoA developed their cas based on that, so nothing gained nothing lost.

Holden and the VE on the other hand...