Ford & Holden rivalry

[johnydep]

Just feel like annoying a few people :nutsycuck

I think the tide has turned and Holden are on a downward spiral.

The Commodore was never an Australian designed vehicle, just a Euro Opel that some bean counter thought could save GMH a few dollars in design costs.
This gave Ford the jump they needed, after people saw what the Commodore really was, a small 4 cylinder car with a 1960's engine & drive train shoe horned into it.
After repeated attempts to sway the Australian public into accepting the Commy, Holden bit the bullet & went for what the market wanted size.
So out came another Euro model, remodeled for Australia with a 1960's American V6 vibrator and a 1980's drive train.
This worked; the public loved the extra power, size and 4 speed auto. So sales went up while Ford played catch up, having no 4 speed ready in time & an engine that didn't quite produce the goods.
A few more bad decisions by Ford management gave Holden the chance to improve on the AussieEuro with more old technology, and the public loved every bit of it, that Datsun 180B rear suspension, that rattly sounding engine with clunky auto and sloppy MacPherson (designed by Ford UK in the 60's) front end. Commodores sold like hot cakes.
Then some **** got kicked at Ford Headquarters and the BA Falcon was produced, A true Aussie car, with an Australian designed engine that was powerful & smooth, an Aussie designed gearbox and a handling package that worked.
"Sh*t", that's what the Holden execs said. So out comes the new Holden V6 that sounded like the old one, matched up with the old trans and a five speed that no other auto manufacturer will touch. That'll see us right for a while, they thought.
But Ford releases the Territory, which takes Australia by storm. An Australian designed vehicle, the public go mad over it, with just about every motoring journalist in the country raving about it. Except for the few poor Commodore lovers that see the righting on the wall, 'only fleet buyers love and buy new Commodores'.
Even Holden knows that there time is running out, so the new model will be more Euro than ever, with a V6 designed for Opels & Vauxals and no wagon for at least two years after the sedan, if at all. And a Korean wanabe to compete against the Territory.
:king: Yep, I can see sunny days for Ford Australia. :king:

RIP Commodore :


This is multiple choice

[MITCHAY]

I like the holden large car segement but prefer the small ford car segement over holdens small car sgement anyday

[MethodX]

Not this old argument again.

Both are multinationals using resources from their parent companies.
If the commodore is a reworked Opel, Then the BA Falcon is basically an updated XK Falcon.

Even the mighty XY Phase 3 used Mustang parts (shock horror).

Hate Toyota and Mitsubishi instead.

[K_Man]

As much as i am a blue oval fan, i personally hope the Commodore does keep going successfully, only because i dont think either Ford or Holden would have the (relatively) high quality products that they do today with the Falcon and Commodore if they weren't always trying to one up eachother for market leadership. Imagine where Ford would of gone with the EA if no VN came along? *shudders*

[MITCHAY]

Wasnt the commodore the best selling car for 8 yrs or so in a row? I mean hasnt the BA falcon got car of the year and they still dont sell more? It comes down to preference and it seems to me that more people prefer the commodore than the falcon.

But i must admit that BA is tons better than the AU anyday. I think another reason attributing to the commodores success is its more of an evolution of the model. Correct me if im wrong but hasnt falcons gone from the EL sorta shape to the AU which was completely different to the BA which is a mix of both.

And then there is people complaining that holden only do minor changes to their models. Could this be the reason why they are so successful? Why change something though if it has proven to be successful.

I mean would they really of changed the AU to the BA if it was successful?

Just some questions to think about.

[Bucknaked]

You have your faithfulls who only ever buy Falcon or Commodore, then you have the middle man. The guy who buys the best value car. Best bang for buck. Likes to save a couple of bucks and has no problem switching between commodore or falcon if one has a bigger cup holder than the other.

[EA2BA]

Likes to save a couple of bucks and has no problem switching between commodore or falcon if one has a bigger cup holder than the other

The comodore do have a very nifty cup holder though

[Laminge]

Originally Posted by Dellboy999

The comodore do have a very nifty cup holder though

So does my computer!!!

Though I am still waiting for tech support to get back to me to show me where I insert my DVD floppy Disk!

[FNQracing]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I mean would they really of changed the AU to the BA if it was successful?

Not to the extent in which they did. AU failed becuase it was (and is) the ugliest car ever to be penned here in Oz. And that gawd awful interior just made people want to throw up.

Naturally, no-one wanted to be seen dead in one and sales floundered. MEanwhile, the Commodore was going from strength to strength. If Ford did not do as good a job on BA and Terry, they would have been in Mitsubishi's shoes. Big Trouble.

Ford now need to completely rid itself of the AU styling, which still exists in BA to a large degree, and never ever look back.

They need to fix their performance image too. Holden has and is king of the local V8's. Just look at the number of young guys wanting Commodores vs Falcons.

I think you can't have one without the other in this country. Both Ford and Holden have pushed each others boundries and as a result we get better cars to choose from.

[parawolf]

I ticked a few boxes:

Ford wake up and smell the roses, and the reasoning is that aftersales support from Ford Motor Company needs to be tracked better then it is. Don't rely on those mail back forms. Call people up and ask for a 5 minutes of their day to answer questions. If they don't agree, or say at the service center that they don't want a call, then mail something out.

Ford Australian Icon: basically because it is. One of the largest employers in Australia, has been in Australia longer than Holden, and many other companies, and invests heavily in the community.

Territory, way of the future: this is self explanatory. The Territory is the right car for the next few years. It could do with some more enhanced options (diesel engine is the one i'm still hearing the most for, more so than a turbo petrol).

I almost ticked another overseas company, because I can see that if free trade agreements go with China - Ford Australia construction could end up being put overseas. You might see high skilled work such as modelling, complex fluid dynamics and perhaps I6 and Boss V8 engine builds here (if the I6 remains - but that would be uncertain). However I can't see that the I6 future is locked in, if it goes, that will hurt Geelong big time - and that would be socially damaging to Ford in Australia - almost to the point of that they wouldn't do it.

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by RATT

I think you can't have one without the other in this country. Both Ford and Holden have pushed each others boundries and as a result we get better cars to choose from.

You reckon? If one left, what would the other do? You'd be competing in the large car segment (price excluded) in Magna/Galant/380, Avalon, BMW 5 Series, Mercedes Benz E Class, and other Euro/Jap/US imports.

Assume Holden left, Ford Australia Falcon would be left to compete with low torque Front Wheels that are built locally, or expensive more similar drive train imports. So either the Falcon would improve in price, or get dropped completely for a revised 'global' platform.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by MethodX

Not this old argument again.

Both are multinationals using resources from their parent companies.
If the commodore is a reworked Opel, Then the BA Falcon is basically an updated XK Falcon.

Even the mighty XY Phase 3 used Mustang parts (shock horror).

Hate Toyota and Mitsubishi instead.

I said that I felt lile annoying a few people :evil3:

Now to say that the BA is basically an updated XK is like saying the XK is an updates Model T.

GM have had a policy of sharing platforms for the past 25 years, of course the Commodore is different to the Opal, but the biggest differences have only come about recently because of Holden Australia's success, compared to the rest of the GM family.

My point is, that Holden have had it easy because of Fords blunders for the last 10 years.
Which blunders?
EF - great car, but most people hated the no grill design, and how many A/C problems did it have (condensor, reciever drier, compressor, evaporater) bumper off to fix things, coil packs.
EL - still a great car, but only a fake grill, still with A/C problems, almost forgot about the rust problem.
Ford had to offer huge discounts to compete against Commodore, which destroyed the resale value.
AU, mechanically it was great, but the body. How many complaints did ford get about wind noise around the door, and how was it fixed? The droopy front & rear sides didn't do much for potential buyers.
So again Ford offered huge incentives, again resale value dropped. This kept fleet buyers away in droves.

While this was happening Holden was going from strenght to strenght with design & inginuity.

But, like I mention, I think the tide is turning & it is Fords turn.

The VZ commodore, is ugly, that huge holden badge, which gets bigger with every model. what is the idea there, brain washing?

[Paxton]

Holden aren't going anywhere any time soon. The VZ Commodore may put them in a position to re-think their strategy where the cars come into play, and we may see the commo on a Front Wheel Drive platform (I recall reading an article that stated GM Bosses refused to pass the new commo drivetrain due to costing, and Daewoo.)

The Falcon will be Rear Wheel Drive and I6 for as long as Ford are in Australia. The I6 is about as Aussie as VB or the Hills Hoist. It will be a cold day in Hell before the Falcon gets a V6. I do hope that we get a more competitive V8, but that may already be in the pipeline.

The Territory WILL be the first Aussie Ford to go to the USA in 10 years by the end of the decade. The Soccer Mom's over there will love it, and the Territory will need its own dedicated plant, which may or may not be in Australia (think USA or Canada) however, it will always be Australian in design, and will always have Australian themes in the interior (think Eucalyptus Leather).

The Falcon is 45 years old, and it has had the commo/kingswood to compete with for that long, it will be around for atleast another 45 years in one form or another.


-Andrew

Originally Posted by parawolf

You reckon? If one left, what would the other do? You'd be competing in the large car segment (price excluded) in Magna/Galant/380, Avalon, BMW 5 Series, Mercedes Benz E Class, and other Euro/Jap/US imports.

Assume Holden left, Ford Australia Falcon would be left to compete with low torque Front Wheels that are built locally, or expensive more similar drive train imports. So either the Falcon would improve in price, or get dropped completely for a revised 'global' platform.

If one left the other won't have incentive to produce XR's or FPV's as much as they do now.

Competing against front drive low torque V6's will result in Ford probably dropping the V8 again and dropping the 4.0l 6cyl for an imported V6. Why would you do more when you're up against a Camry/Avalon/Magna. Ford/Holden/Toyota/Mitsubishi are in no way competitors to BMW/ Merc Benz either.

Proof of this is that if there was no SS, there be no XR8/XR6T. If there was no HSV, there would be no FPV.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by RATT

Proof of this is that if there was no SS, there be no XR8/XR6T. If there was no HSV, there would be no FPV.

Yep thats the jist of it all and couldnt agree more.

[Pilch]

Originally Posted by RATT

Proof of this is that if there was no SS, there be no XR8/XR6T. If there was no HSV, there would be no FPV.

If that is the case than why did Holden continue to produce a V8 when Ford dropped the V8??? Your line of thought seems to be that if there is no competition than there is no market.

If the Commodore (or Falcon) stopped production, you would still see these cars produced because there is a market there. Ford and Holden ARE spurred on by each other, but only to capture more of the same market! The improvements just wouldn't be as good without the competition.

eg. Holden V8's improved significantly since Ford re-introduced the V8 to their options list.

[VZSS250]

C'mon guys, I know the BA has brought Ford a bit closer to the top of the game, but lets not forget the widespread human misery caused by the AU. The current product is fantastic (I'm buying an XR8 ute shortly to park next to my SS), despite the concerns over the weight, But while Holden is pumping out 6.0 V8s the Ford camp is going to struggle to surpass Holden's domination. And what about Monaro? Gameover.

[BlueRaven]

I actually had a serious(ish) response to this thread...but I decided against it.

I can see no value in predicting the future of either company or examining the rivalry between them.

As stated before, the rivalry that we enjoy (which is no different to rivarly between anything else) will only benefit us and annoy us.

[merlin]

Originally Posted by VZSS250

C'mon guys, I know the BA has brought Ford a bit closer to the top of the game, but lets not forget the widespread human misery caused by the AU. The current product is fantastic (I'm buying an XR8 ute shortly to park next to my SS), despite the concerns over the weight, But while Holden is pumping out 6.0 V8s the Ford camp is going to struggle to surpass Holden's domination. And what about Monaro? Gameover.

Yep I can see Holdens 6.0L V8 being real successful in the face of current fuel prices... _ (though in truth ALL V8 products will probably suffer).

Thats why I dont think Territory is the future - The future will see a shift to smaller more fuel efficient cars unless they develop a hybrid engine (or very efficient diesel) for territory which they probably will if the market demands it.

[rick69]

Originally Posted by Pilch

If that is the case than why did Holden continue to produce a V8 when Ford dropped the V8???

Because a group of motoring journalists started a campaign with the public to write letters of demand to Holden to keep the V8 alive.
It was called the V8's till 98 campaign.

[RAREV8]

[QUOTE=johnydep]Just feel like annoying a few people :nutsycuck

I think the tide has turned and Holden are on a downward spiral.

The Commodore was never an Australian designed vehicle, just a Euro Opel that some bean counter thought could save GMH a few dollars in design costs.
This gave Ford the jump they needed, after people saw what the Commodore really was, a small 4 cylinder car with a 1960's engine & drive train shoe horned into it.
After repeated attempts to sway the Australian public into accepting the Commy, Holden bit the bullet & went for what the market wanted size.
So out came another Euro model, remodeled for Australia with a 1960's American V6 vibrator and a 1980's drive train.
This worked; the public loved the extra power, size and 4 speed auto. So sales went up while Ford played catch up, having no 4 speed ready in time & an engine that didn't quite produce the goods.
A few more bad decisions by Ford management gave Holden the chance to improve on the AussieEuro with more old technology, and the public loved every bit of it, that Datsun 180B rear suspension, that rattly sounding engine with clunky auto and sloppy MacPherson (designed by Ford UK in the 60's) front end. Commodores sold like hot cakes.
Then some **** got kicked at Ford Headquarters and the BA Falcon was produced, A true Aussie car, with an Australian designed engine that was powerful & smooth, an Aussie designed gearbox and a handling package that worked.
"Sh*t", that's what the Holden execs said. So out comes the new Holden V6 that sounded like the old one, matched up with the old trans and a five speed that no other auto manufacturer will touch. That'll see us right for a while, they thought.
But Ford releases the Territory, which takes Australia by storm. An Australian designed vehicle, the public go mad over it, with just about every motoring journalist in the country raving about it. Except for the few poor Commodore lovers that see the righting on the wall, 'only fleet buyers love and buy new Commodores'.
Even Holden knows that there time is running out, so the new model will be more Euro than ever, with a V6 designed for Opels & Vauxals and no wagon for at least two years after the sedan, if at all. And a Korean wanabe to compete against the Territory.
:king: Yep, I can see sunny days for Ford Australia. :king:

RIP Commodore :


I might be mistaken, but doesn't the BA and the commodore essentially share the same T5 gearboxes? I was also under the impression that this was a Jap designed box?

I think that although some good rivalry is great, especially for the motorsport side of things, it is a little pointless comparing the two otherwise- the commodore and the falcon are the same thing, designed under the same restrictions, to fulfil the same tasks in the same marketplace at the same price point.........

And....whether we like it or not, both companies are really American anyway!!

There was a very interesting article written by the head designer of Jaguar. It was claimed that the similarities between the latest offerings from Jag bear rather more than a passing resemblance to the latest Aston.
Said designer was, previously, the head designer for Aston but the reason that the two cars looked the same was due to the regulations that both cars came under. They are 2 cars designed to do the same thing in the same marketplace and as they are both cutting it as finely as poss within these design laws, "tis small wonder they appear so similar.

Bear in mind that to the average person, Commys and Falcs both look so similar, and are just repmobiles and family transport......

I am playing Devils Advocate and I am a Ford fan but its my point of view!!

(Feel free to castigate me regarding the gearbox thingie as I'm not sure!)

[johnydep]

Why I think Territory is the future.

Sedan & wagon sales have been dropping for years, with vehicle manufacturers having to offer all maner of vehicle types to keep the public interested. With most sales going to the cut-throaght fleet market.
4WD & SUV sales have been increasing every year for the past 5 -8. The reason, people want a family freindly vehicle that will fit the kids, their freinds, the dog & the kitchen sink, with the capabilities of traveling with comfort & safety. Seven seats is a preferable.
So sales went to the 4WD & people mover sector, even though potential buyers didn't want to go that way.
Ford & Holden both see the whats happening to the market, so both released there answer; Holden the Adventra, Ford the Territory.

Which one is selling well?

So Ford have picked up a new market sector: People that would never have purchased a new vehicle, are now buying Territory's. Owners of 4WD's & people movers are trading for Territory's. Commodore & Falcon owners are moving into Territory's. A huge export market.

The private market is more profitable than the fleet.

What will Holden's answer be, a imported modified 4WD.

The Commodore is being exported in Monaro & Statesman form, a very limited market.
The Territory has a base here with huge potential in the Americas, Sth Africa is already a customer and possibly a few European markets.
Yes economy is an issue, but you need to learn how to crawl before you run. A six speed auto is around the corner and probably a desiel engine.

With the Territory & Falcon coming off the same production line, costs can be kept down and production can fluctuate to either vehicle.

So which company has a brighter future?

[Pilch]

Originally Posted by rick69

Because a group of motoring journalists started a campaign with the public to write letters of demand to Holden to keep the V8 alive.
It was called the V8's till 98 campaign.

never heard of that! so why are Holden still producing V8's than, it's 2005 :

[rick69]

Originally Posted by johnydep

So which company has a brighter future?

I don't know why you are so worried about this..... In the end the profits are going into their pockets, not yours........

[Pilch]

Originally Posted by johnydep

4WD & SUV sales have been increasing every year for the past 5 -8

don't know if it's just a solitary month, but i heard on the radio this morning that large car's and 4wd's had declining sales of around 16%, while the small & medium segments increased 16% for the month of june..... don't have the facts in front of me, so I may be completely wrong.

Still, the Territory is kicking some serious a$$ and is having good sales in a dieing market segment.

Large 4wd are in decline but the SUV (small and medium) is the growing segment.

Also Pilch what I meant was that if Holden/ Ford completely shut the doors (rather than just dropping the V8), neither if them would have enough incentive to continue to produce turbo's and V8's.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by rick69

I don't know why you are so worried about this..... In the end the profits are going into their pockets, not yours........

I'm not worried, just feel like annoying Commodore lovers :lookedat:

If I was worried about profits going into other peoples pockets & not mine, I'd never buy anything.

In the end if a company is not profitable, they go out of business or their products resale value is worthless, look at Magna's. I'd rather Ford were profitable

[rick69]

Originally Posted by johnydep

I'm not worried, just feel like annoying Commodore lovers

Well you can annoy all you like, but Commodore sales are as strong as ever and show no signs of declining, and they will only continue to grow once the VE hits the market.

[Pilch]

Originally Posted by RATT

Large 4wd are in decline but the SUV (small and medium) is the growing segment.

Also Pilch what I meant was that if Holden/ Ford completely shut the doors (rather than just dropping the V8), neither if them would have enough incentive to continue to produce turbo's and V8's.

are okay, either i misheard the radio or the radio was "summarising" and making it misleading.....

I still would've thought they'd keep making V8's / Turbo's. Just the improvements wouldn't be as constant nor significant. It's only my opinion after all, real aussie wants a aussie (yank) built V8 for a affordable price. i think the Turbo's are a worthwhile model in the Falcon line up to stay on also.