Ford and Toyota in talks

ClevlndStemer · 27-12-2006, 08:06 AM

It looks like Ford it looking to Toyota for help. Not to keen on them wanting to adopt the hybrid tech (are there better alternatives?)

http://www.news.com.au/business/stor...70-462,00.html

Ringo · 27-12-2006, 10:03 AM

Porshe consulted Toyota in the mid 90's about how restructure their business. Porshe where losing money, spent way to long building their cars, made thier cars to complex and where looking at disaster.

They took on board the Toyota style of management and manufacturing principles and now make more money per car that any other car manufacturer in the world.

Ford US are in serious serious trouble. Wrong products, high manufacturer costs, losing market share every day and the company will drown in debt without drastic long term change.

Your the boss of Ford - Who you gonna call?

You call the best manufacturers of motor vehicles that the world has ever seen and ask them for help.

I had a Prius for 5 days a few weeks ago - one of the most interesting cars I have ever driven and yes I would have one as a second car, runabout, communter car. It doesn't quite suit every situation (ie towing) but it works brilliantly everywhere else. With more development I can see this technology being used in so many other vehicle platforms and making great cars even better.

Many automotive brands in the UK and the US have ceased to exist over the last 50 years as they stood still in the face of change and ignored the changing market.

I am pleased that my beloved Ford is open to change in the face of ruin and is consulting the experts of mass production.

Bill_R · 27-12-2006, 10:43 AM

They are looking at alternate technologies which is a good thing. I'm suprised Ford doesn't already have plans in that direction.

Bossxr8 · 27-12-2006, 12:57 PM

A few companies are now buying the hybrid technology off Toyota. I think Nissan have now started a Hybrid Altima for the US.

xr8man83 · 27-12-2006, 01:11 PM

I thought Ford had hybrid technology??

Bossxr8 · 27-12-2006, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xr8man83

I thought Ford had hybrid technology??

They sell the Hybrid Escape and Mercury Mariner.

chich · 27-12-2006, 05:03 PM

Interesting how one of the industries major players criticises Toyota for building boring and pointless cars then turns around and asks them for help. Should be interesting to see what eventuates. If i remember correctly Ford also used some of Honda's engineering resources back in the days of the XD/XE (?) alloy crossflow head.

S3SR · 27-12-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xr8man83

I thought Ford had hybrid technology??

LPG/ULP thats hybrid enough

**Bluehoon** · 27-12-2006, 09:13 PM

It is a credit that Ford have the acknowledgement in their faults to seek help for the benefit of us...

Abacus · 27-12-2006, 11:45 PM

FWIW, I think Ford US's position may be terminal. The rest of its world-wide businesses are probably salvageable, with a bit of help, but it is difficult to see how Ford US can get up while it is burdened with pensions and health care costs for its ex employees. This is particularly so given that most of its opposition (with the exception of GM - another basket case) are not encumbered with these liabilities.

It seems to me entirely possible that Ford may have no option but to sell its operations into a joint venture co-owned by another major manufacturer, and let the actual US parent die. This would be one way of retaining the worldwide infrastructure in some shape or form, and allow it to restart operations in the US with a clean slate.

No doubt there will be union outrage and potential legislative hurdles, but it may well came down to Ford saying "we can do it this way, or we close up shop". There is no way in the world that Ford can sustain too many years of losses on the scale it has racked up in the past decade.

My 2c of crystal ball gazing.

Now I think I'll have another beer.

Jayden · 28-12-2006, 02:09 AM

I think Ford in the US should fire their management, marketing and design teams and the head boss should fire himself, then hire people who like cars, know what people want to buy and like the Ford brand. People will buy it if its good, its no coincidence the 05 Mustang was popular.

If they focused on making a powerful 6 cylinder sedan that looked the part, not with chrome and useless crap all over it, made it look agressive and built as well as the newest Japanese imports which im sure they could do if they tried. and budgeted it towards the average american family. then im sure they could lift their sales. Their biggest problem has to be their useless marketing and lame design desisions.

their cars made to fill the biggest sales braket always look shite for some reason over there, time to move away from that trend.

now where'd I put my bourban?

Abacus · 28-12-2006, 03:26 AM

Yes, their local designs suck, but in fairness to their management the structural problems go back about 50+ years.

The issues with the pension plans and heath fund costs date back to the economic rush that marked the post World War II US economy, when their government froze the wages that companies could pay employees.

Large corporations like Ford, GM and Chrysler, desperate to attract and retain employees, struck deals with the unions that provided for generous fringe benefits, payable even when an employee retired. These pension and health care costs have become the albatross around the neck of much traditional US industry.

Ford and GM now find themselves in the position of being unable to adequately fund local car development because the contracted payments to former employees are bleeding them dry. It comes down to not being able to spend an extra $20 per car on better interior plastics and fabrics because they have to pay $20 health care to an employee who retired in 1985. Crazy stuff.

In fact its worse than that, the deals struck with the large US corporations in the late 40's and early 50's generally provided that even when the retired employee died, benefits would continue to be paid to his dependant spouse for the term of her life.

The difficulties for reform of these arrangements are, of course, aggravated by the US's near third-world approach to funding social security and health care. When the large corporations try to negotiate their way out of these deals, the unions quite justifably get upset, aware that there is no effective safety net to catch the former employees who suddenly lose their benefits.

There are other historical structural problems shared by Ford and GM. For instance, both have duplication of product ranges across their respective brands, e.g. Ford/Mercury and Chevrolet/Buick/Saturn. The various differentiations to trim etc needed to maintain these individual brands is very expensive. However, neither Ford nor GM can readily rationalise these brands because of their contracted arrangements with their distribution networks. Attempting to rationalise these networks by eliminating a brand or two would basically embroil them in massive litigation and compensation costs.

It is for these reasons that I suggest that the deep, deep, problems that both Ford and GM find themselves embroiled are pretty much unsolveable without external intervention. Chrysler was lucky enough to find a white knight in the form of Daimler-Chrysler after the near fatal collapse of Chrysler forced the unions to renegotiate the health care and pension deals. Unfortunately for Ford and GM, white knights are thin on the ground these days. If Ford has to go to Toyota, face to the ground and bum in the air, pleading to be raped gently, it may be Ford's only real avenue for survival.

I think I'll line up two beers.

csv8 · 28-12-2006, 10:47 AM

Camry as a Focus !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Corolla as a Fiesta !!!!!!!!!!
Aurion as a Falcon !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Homer1 · 28-12-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayden

I think Ford in the US should fire their management, marketing and design teams and the head boss should fire himself, then hire people who like cars, know what people want to buy and like the Ford brand. People will buy it if its good, its no coincidence the 05 Mustang was popular.

If they focused on making a powerful 6 cylinder sedan that looked the part, not with chrome and useless crap all over it, made it look agressive and built as well as the newest Japanese imports which im sure they could do if they tried. and budgeted it towards the average american family. then im sure they could lift their sales. Their biggest problem has to be their useless marketing and lame design desisions.

their cars made to fill the biggest sales braket always look shite for some reason over there, time to move away from that trend.

now where'd I put my bourban?

I still wonder why the Crown Vic is still being made......should have been made obsolete in the early 90s.

Abacus · 28-12-2006, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Homer1

I still wonder why the Crown Vic is still being made......should have been made obsolete in the early 90s.

And here we see the very nature of Ford US's problems. The Crown Vic is about the best car they've got!! Recent customer satisfaction surveys have the Crown Vic getting the highest satisfaction ratings for any US Ford.

I mean, what would you rather be sitting in, a Crown Vic or a Five Hundred?

28-12-2006, 03:55 PM

Check out www.fordboldmoves.com and watch all the vids, Shows the deepness of the problems Ford US are in.

There is a vid that talks about the development of alternate fuels and how Ford has jumped to alternate fuels as part of their Bold Moves strategy.

I think the meeting was to offer shared technical data for the Hybrid engine.

Jayden · 28-12-2006, 05:24 PM

I had a quick browse through their bold-moves site. I still think they are on the wrong track, some things are moving in the right direction but overall they seem to miss the point.

Why do they have this mentality that a car should have everything in it you dont need? I swear they concentrate way to much on crap like warning sounds and automatic stuff. I think they dont have a chance now consulting people like some american mom to come up with ideas for their suvs.

And another problem I speculate that they have apart from quality and appearence is their extreme line-up of cars, if I were an environmentalist there is no way id buy a ford hybrid simply because right next to it in the showroom is a massive ford F 1billion hippy killer truck. here in australia there is basically one good car that identifys the brand you say I drive a ford over here and people assume its a Falcon over there you say that and they will probably think your a car noob.

maybe they could divide into more brands or something if they cant fix their cars. so the big ugly cars are marketed seperatly.

smoo · 28-12-2006, 06:32 PM

Well, it looks like Ford have a more important problem on their hands...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=22838

Pathetic, Henry would be spinning in his grave

: No wonder that they're in the ****.

Quote:

If they focused on making a powerful 6 cylinder sedan that looked the part, not with chrome and useless crap all over it, made it look agressive and built as well as the newest Japanese imports which im sure they could do if they tried. and budgeted it towards the average american family. then im sure they could lift their sales. Their biggest problem has to be their useless marketing and lame design desisions.

Yeah in an ideal would they'd make it possible to build lhd Falcon and Territory over there, instead of an all new model.

CAMS290 · 28-12-2006, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

They sell the Mercury Mariner.

That sounds like an outboard motor

Bossxr8 · 29-12-2006, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jayden

I think Ford in the US should fire their management, marketing and design teams and the head boss should fire himself, then hire people who like cars, know what people want to buy and like the Ford brand. People will buy it if its good, its no coincidence the 05 Mustang was popular.

I think that the Ford US marketing team do an awesome job. Some of the ads they made for the Ford GT and Mustangs have been the best i've ever seen. The field of dreams ad for the Mustang with a digitally made Steve McQueen was pure genius.

If only Ford Australia had the creativity and advertising dollars that Ford US do.

Jayden · 29-12-2006, 03:01 PM

I guess they were good, alot to do with the cars themselves though.

Marketing is done right from the start though when determining what the public wants in a new car, that where its going wrong. Even I would buy mitsubishi sedan over their current line-up of sedans. the fusion is just corny and the five hundred is boring IMO. re-useing the platform and fixing the styling would probably do it.

still butter than http://www.chevrolet.com/ - how bad does that site look :hihi:

eb2fairmont · 29-12-2006, 03:01 PM

and only if the us had the decent product we have...

Homer1 · 29-12-2006, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abacus

I mean, what would you rather be sitting in, a Crown Vic or a Five Hundred?

Neither!!! If I was in the US, I'd get a Jap or German car

Homer1 · 29-12-2006, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoo

Well, it looks like Ford have a more important problem on their hands...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=22838

Pathetic, Henry would be spinning in his grave

: No wonder that they're in the ****.

Yeah in an ideal would they'd make it possible to build lhd Falcon and Territory over there, instead of an all new model.

That article is ummmmm.....old! Jac Nasser hasn't been Ford CEO for some time now.