body swaps

ESPJG32 · 22-02-2017, 03:40 PM

Hey Guys,

This one is for older guys who worked in the panel industry.
Reading the latest Aust Muscle Car in the Muscle Mail section there is a letter from a guy who was an apprentice in 1974 and he talks about crashed cars getting re bodied as a matter of course - new bodies were bought from the factory and a car was re bodied onto a new shell, it seems like GM, Ford and BMC were supplying new shells to the industry to make repairs to badly damaged cars more viable- probably even insurance jobs.

I know it is now a very touchy subject and considered illegal now - don't respond with "its illegal" etc - I am not asking for your opinion - I am asking the guys who were in the industry back then - did it happen and did it happen a lot??
I know it has happened for race cars - it's the road cars of the era I am interested in-thanks

Itsme · 22-02-2017, 04:01 PM

It would have been legal, the body would have been issued with a new ID number & must be approved by an engineering firm for compliance.

One of my friends actually purchased a brand new body from Ford in 1999 for his EL & had to get an engineer for compliance before Vic Roads issued new body ID.

OBTW the body was not cheap & in the long run probably little savings compared to purchasing another vehicle.

Vesper Martini · 22-02-2017, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESPJG32

Hey Guys,

This one is for older guys who worked in the panel industry.
Reading the latest Aust Muscle Car in the Muscle Mail section there is a letter from a guy who was an apprentice in 1974 and he talks about crashed cars getting re bodied as a matter of course - new bodies were bought from the factory and a car was re bodied onto a new shell, it seems like GM, Ford and BMC were supplying new shells to the industry to make repairs to badly damaged cars more viable- probably even insurance jobs.

I know it is now a very touchy subject and considered illegal now - don't respond with "its illegal" etc - I am not asking for your opinion - I am asking the guys who were in the industry back then - did it happen and did it happen a lot??
I know it has happened for race cars - it's the road cars of the era I am interested in-thanks

Your talking early 70's late 60's I don't see why it wouldn't have been viable back then, labour was cheap and the cars a lot less complicated.

ESPJG32 · 22-02-2017, 04:38 PM

Hi Guys,

TruBlu, you are thinking about the later era, yes compliance would be an issue in the later times.

The Letter was talking about the earlier days, compliance didnt exist back then or was just starting - ADR's didnt start till jan 1970 and even then it was about things like seatbelts etc.

I am just trying to get a feel for how much of it was likely to have happened - no new body ID's in those days I believe.

There could be some cars out there still that were actually re bodied in the day and no one thought any more about it. I imagine most of those cars would have finished up in the crusher in later years when no one saw any value in them, but maybe, just maybe there is still some out there, that is why I am trying to figure out was it done a lot??

Tassie f100 · 22-02-2017, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESPJG32

Hey Guys,

This one is for older guys who worked in the panel industry.
Reading the latest Aust Muscle Car in the Muscle Mail section there is a letter from a guy who was an apprentice in 1974 and he talks about crashed cars getting re bodied as a matter of course - new bodies were bought from the factory and a car was re bodied onto a new shell, it seems like GM, Ford and BMC were supplying new shells to the industry to make repairs to badly damaged cars more viable- probably even insurance jobs.

I know it is now a very touchy subject and considered illegal now - don't respond with "its illegal" etc - I am not asking for your opinion - I am asking the guys who were in the industry back then - did it happen and did it happen a lot??
I know it has happened for race cars - it's the road cars of the era I am interested in-thanks

Happened fairly regularly in the 70s & 80s.An XF sedan body with all panels painted white was under $4000.I knew a fellow who bought a badly damaged rollover ZL Fairlane for $5000 and $7000 for a complete body and a few secondhand bits and pieces.$12000 and a couple of weeks work he had an $18000 car.Took it Vicroads and registered.Had an argument at Vic Roads because they wanted to hit him for stamp duty on $18000 not the $1200 it cost him

ESPJG32 · 22-02-2017, 04:56 PM

Hi Tassie F100 - Ah yes.... the Govt missing out on revenue, we cant let that happen can we!!!

**FairmontGS** · 22-02-2017, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESPJG32

Hey Guys,

This one is for older guys who worked in the panel industry.
Reading the latest Aust Muscle Car in the Muscle Mail section there is a letter from a guy who was an apprentice in 1974 and he talks about crashed cars getting re bodied as a matter of course - new bodies were bought from the factory and a car was re bodied onto a new shell, it seems like GM, Ford and BMC were supplying new shells to the industry to make repairs to badly damaged cars more viable- probably even insurance jobs.

I know it is now a very touchy subject and considered illegal now - don't respond with "its illegal" etc - I am not asking for your opinion - I am asking the guys who were in the industry back then - did it happen and did it happen a lot??
I know it has happened for race cars - it's the road cars of the era I am interested in-thanks

It's another of those "You know, Ford did a lot of strange things back in the day" myths I reckon, along with people who reckon their 78' Fairlane has a factory-fitted winged sump and 4V heads

I know older people who have worked in insurance all their lives and they all laugh when I bring up the topic of factory replacement body shells. If a car was that badly damaged that it need a new shell it was written off by the insurer.

As AMC magazine runs out of decent copy it's starting to fill the pages with tripe like this. The same column has some knucklehead claiming that an RPO had one drum and one disc for brakes. Yeah... sure

And Auction Action in the same issue details an automatic XA GT with factory 4V heads

XRtowcar · 22-02-2017, 05:49 PM

Remember seeing bare bodies quite frequently in the 80's.
White sedans for sale, mainly around northern suburbs of Melbourne.

**cs123** · 22-02-2017, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FairmontGS

I know older people who have worked in insurance all their lives and they all laugh when I bring up the topic of factory replacement body shells. If a car was that badly damaged that it need a new shell it was written off by the insurer.

How much labour does it cost to have a production line worker fit parts to a new vehicle?

How much labour does it cost for a panel beater to remove parts from one vehicle and fit them to another?

Can't see it being viable, especially when you consider all the little things like interior parts, underlay, roof trim, wiring, weather seals.

Ford17 · 22-02-2017, 05:53 PM

In the Book "Ford Australia: The Cars and The People Who Built Them" it shows a 1960's photo of spare parts in the factory, with a couple of XP(?) Falcon body shells sitting on top of the parts shelves.

Tassie f100 · 22-02-2017, 05:55 PM

[QUOTE=FairmontGS;5883094]It's another of those "You know, Ford did a lot of strange things back in the day" myths I reckon, along with people who reckon their 78' Fairlane has a factory-fitted winged sump and 4V heads

I know older people who have worked in insurance all their lives and they all laugh when I bring up the topic of factory replacement body shells. If a car was that badly damaged that it need a new shell it was written off by the insurer.

Your "friends" would be correct in saying the insurance co,s wrote the vehicle off but that didn't mean that people wouldn't buy the wreck and rebuild it with a new body shell

Nikked · 22-02-2017, 05:56 PM

You could order a "body in white" (replacement shell) from ford up until the AU run ended iirc.

lra · 22-02-2017, 05:59 PM

If you have the 'Ford Aus car and the people who built them' book, on page 107 are a Zephyr and XK Falcon bodies 'on the shelf' as spare parts.

**Raptor** · 22-02-2017, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XRtowcar

Remember seeing bare bodies quite frequently in the 80's.
White sedans for sale, mainly around northern suburbs of Melbourne.

A lot later than that as well, certainly into the 90's maybe even the noughties. Bare Falcon 'bodies in white' used to be advertised in Unique Cars/Just cars and similar publications for just this purpose. From memory the sellers were some of the larger dealership spare parts depts.

.

**FairmontGS** · 22-02-2017, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Your "friends" would be correct in saying the insurance co,s wrote the vehicle off but that didn't mean that people wouldn't buy the wreck and rebuild it with a new body shell

Correct, but maybe go back and read the OP's original question regarding what went on in the industry, not in your mate's brothers' back yard...

danzvtil · 22-02-2017, 06:25 PM

Happened in the 90's, my friends P plater brother slid his VS Calais sideways into a tree, after much too-ing and fro-ing with the insurance co, it was a replacement body shell, car was worth 30k at the time.

Bushbasher · 22-02-2017, 06:48 PM

I remember seeing an XW HO shell advertised by a panel shop closing down, in Unique Cars or some similar mag, back in the late 80s'-early 90's that was described as a rebody shell that was never used. Can't remember too much more about it except it had all the correct HO body mods over the regular shell, and thinking that it would have to be one VEERRRYYY rare item and worth a motsa.

FG50T · 22-02-2017, 07:01 PM

I know a place where VL Walkinshaws went to become born again in the early 90's.. 18 is the official number of how many and yes I am deadset serious they all went through the same workshop. I can't speak for other types of cars buy I know the VB-VL HDT/HSV cars were his specialty for rebodies.

tranquilized · 22-02-2017, 07:23 PM

Falcon body shells were available via Ford spare parts in the late 90's - I was selling parts at a Ford dealer at the time. I remember one time Ford were doing a deal and they bought several in, had a yard full of them. At least a few found their way onto the second hand lot filled with a crashed donor vehicle's bits.

Blue Shadow · 22-02-2017, 07:37 PM

I was doing my apprenticeship in the mid 70s, never done or heard of a rebody in the industry, there were a lot of cut & shuts. Even back then I couldn't see it being viable for a business to do it or an insurance company paying for it, considering cars were written off at 75% of the value. Maybe it was done privately, but you could buy bodies for all brands

Warrenk · 22-02-2017, 07:47 PM

Although it is illegal to rebirth a car with a aftermarket body, it proberbly will be legal if the vehicle is built under the guidlines of an ICV.

Warren

ozpacman · 22-02-2017, 08:04 PM

I commenced my panel beating apprenticeship at a country Qld Ford dealership in 1976 and qualified as a tradesman in 1980. I then worked for only a few more years in the trade before realising that it wasn't something I wanted to keep doing for the rest of my life.

I can only recall doing one re-body during that time and that was in about 1978/79. The vehicle was an XC S pack sedan, 4.9 and may have been a manual and was 'Satin Spruce' in colour. It belonged to our dealership Service Manager and he managed to put it on it's roof when it was only about a month old.

It was an insurance job and my boss quoted to repair it using a new body. It was a pretty big job but as the car was almost new it was obviously an economical way to do it because otherwise the insurance company would have written it off.

As far as body numbers and compliance plates are concerned, I clearly recall we simply swapped the plates to the new shell (holes were already there) and stamped the original numbers onto the new body using a set of stamps we borrowed from the dealership mechanical workshop. No one would have considered if it was legal or not back then - we were just trying to make his damaged car like new again!

We absolutely loaded that new body with 'Rust Rid' rust prevention product before it was reassembled as we were the local agents for it. Barring any subsequent major bingles, if that car survives today I'll bet it would be almost rust free!

Cheers,

Russ.

4stanger · 22-02-2017, 08:19 PM

The panel shop I worked at in Central Qld. did a rebody on a VP commodore wagon,
The Commodore wagon belonged to Qld. Rail (a state government public service) they were "self insured", a brand new body factory painted white was delivered in a timber crate with all doors attached, but missing the front guards and bonnet which were fitted later, mechanic shop down the road came up to us to swap all the mechanicals, panel beaters fitted the rest, I was in the paint shop so I wasn't really too much involved with this job, but it was the only re-body job I have seen, I think it was 1993 or 94 when this was done. Original car was badly damaged from a roll over, obviously Qld. Rail must have paid for this as a cheaper alternative to selling the wreck and purchasing another new one. I wonder where this car is now

roddy1960 · 22-02-2017, 08:21 PM

G'day , If the body remains with all the compliance plates/indented numbers /VIN and so on..and passes over necessary pits inspection..that's good enough to constitute legal isn't it ? Doesn't matter if engine or other components are replaced in it's lifetime because I suppose those components are wear out-able but eminently replaceable of course... Happened to me once..

In the early 1980's I had the misfortune to own a dodgey VC Commodore for a time..At just on 120,000 kays the blue 202 just went bang bang bang driving home from work one night .Unrepairable broken piston skirt..Required a new short motor and I can't recall whether I had to update the rego papers or not...My father in later years got his old Kingswood resprayed and I know he was told by the panelbeater to amend the rego papers then because he decided to totally change the colour. I remember him contacting Motor Registry for rego compliance reasons... Cheers Rod..

.:4:. · 22-02-2017, 08:30 PM

These days I'm pretty sure if the motor complies with the emissions law applicable to the make and model of the body it's fitted to and there is proof of ownership it can be done. Updating the colour of the exterior on the rego makes sense with all the rego apps out there, and the info the federales have. ie, if I sprayed my silver fairmont black for arguments sake and it got stolen, I'd report a black fairmont. Their records would state a silver one. That creates a black spot of doubt if fake.plates from a black fairmont were stolen and not yet reported.

ESPJG32 · 22-02-2017, 11:05 PM

Humm....looks like a practice that did happen even for government dept's - bodies in white on the shelf available for purchase...and as one guy said it even had the holes pre drilled for the ID plates.

It raises the old argument for race cars....how much of the original body do you have to have to have the original car.....with bodies in white available the answer could be - NONE.....maybe only the ID plate is needed...

I note that in the UK, British Motor Heritage have started making replacement morris Mini bodies using the original tooling making original pressings and assembling them .....these amount to bodies in white.....there will be those who say it is not made by the same company, but they are made using the original tooling, so is the company structure the thing that makes the difference...or the original tooling...vexed question

lra · 23-02-2017, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roddy1960

At just on 120,000 kays the blue 202 just went bang bang bang driving home from work one night .Unrepairable broken piston skirt..Required a new short motor and I can't recall whether I had to update the rego papers or not... ... Cheers Rod..

Things were simple last century. I had a Higginbottom motor fitted to my HJ Kingswood, drive-in, drive-out, never changed the rego details, never got questioned at roadworthy time. I had it 30+ years from new till scrapyard, so I don't know if there would have been a problem on selling it.

Tassie f100 · 23-02-2017, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lra

Things were simple last century. I had a Higginbottom motor fitted to my HJ Kingswood, drive-in, drive-out, never changed the rego details, never got questioned at roadworthy time. I had it 30+ years from new till scrapyard, so I don't know if there would have been a problem on selling it.

The only time there was a problem was if a changover engine was fitted and the previous engine owner hadn't notified the Rego authority of the change.when the new owner went to change engine numbers it flagged 2 engines with the same number.usually only happened with private changovers,most workshops notified the Rego office.

malazn mafia · 23-02-2017, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trublu

It would have been legal, the body would have been issued with a new ID number & must be approved by an engineering firm for compliance.

One of my friends actually purchased a brand new body from Ford in 1999 for his EL & had to get an engineer for compliance before Vic Roads issued new body ID.

OBTW the body was not cheap & in the long run probably little savings compared to purchasing another vehicle.

faintly remember this in the 90s, being able to buy a brand new shell. This guy must really have loved his EL.

Ford17 · 23-02-2017, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

The only time there was a problem was if a changover engine was fitted and the previous engine owner hadn't notified the Rego authority of the change.when the new owner went to change engine numbers it flagged 2 engines with the same number.usually only happened with private changovers,most workshops notified the Rego office.

Ford service were telling me when they had a batch of problems with the BA-circa (IIRC) V8's, they'd remove the engine and send it back to FPV to rebuild.

They would then install another 'loan' engine into the car to get it up and running again, and when the original engine rebuild was finished, remove the 'loan' engine and re-install the rebuilt original engine.

This procedure seemed to get around the whole engine number to body number match up issue.