people still buying holdens/hsv?

RAPID_BA · 22-09-2011, 11:41 PM

We all know fords have delivered a pretty solid product with fg falcon.

Our i6 makes the holden 6 pretty limp wristed. The fpv cars pretty much fo the same with the holden/hsv v8s..

The rest of the car is pretty good too, more than a match for ve.

But everyone i speak to is buying a new holden ve, whether it be a sportswagon ssv or omega. Do people ignore the ford product?

Now that the dust has settled with miami fpv, have we even made a dent on the hsv sales? Are more miami cars being sold than the old 5.4s? Have we dug into hsv sales or just eaten f6 sales? i see a tonn of hsv e3 cars on our roads but ive seen one coyote fpv on the street?

Is the fg cars eating into ve omega sales? Or despite the older shape and feeble motors, are the holdens still enjoying sales pre fg?

Brazen · 22-09-2011, 11:46 PM

Love our VEII SV6 Sportwagon best car I have ever owned. First Holden after a lifetime of Fords. They are a great car as are the FG Falcons, nowadays you cant go wrong with either.

Ordering a Mark II FG Falcon ute when they are officially released for order, so I will have both a Falcon and Commodore. Best of both worlds.

I think XT sales should pick up when EcoLPI comes out. Omega sales might also gain once their dedicated LPG is released next year.

I think FG MkII will be a good chance to give the Falcon a good sales nudge, the styling improvements will make it a bit more fresh. Commodore will probably still outsell Falcon by at least double for the forseeable future.

Ryan · 23-09-2011, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

Our i6 makes the holden 6 pretty limp wristed. The fpv cars pretty much fo the same with the holden/hsv v8s..

Honestly who buys a 6 cylinder Commodore or Falcon for their performance (Unless we're talking about the XR6T, or SV6 I guess)? Do people who buy Omega and XTs for example really care about which 6 cylinder is better? The Commodore V6 may not be the most powerful, or greatest performer in the market, but has come along way from the old Buick "rattleboxes" of the 1980s.

In regards to the V8s, Holden has one advantage. They offer a V8 in their Commodore range. If you want a V8 Ford you need to buy an FPV, but not everything is about power, or 1/4 mile times. Some people may simply prefer the way the VE looks.

Both are pretty solid products at the end of the day.

sexyxe · 23-09-2011, 07:44 AM

A lot of my mates (22 - 25) are very surprised when I tell them about the s'charged v8 Ford offers. They just dont know about it.

These blokes earn 75k of essentially disposable income, which Ford would love to get a hold of. When ever the talk of a ute comes up, its always, without fail about a commodore SS, and occasionally my old 3v might get a mention.

People are somewhat raised with a mentality of holden vs ford and stick by that as they are uneducated (nor care) about the subject. Its a hard egg to crack.

DBourne · 23-09-2011, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexyxe

A lot of my mates (22 - 25) are very surprised when I tell them about the s'charged v8 Ford offers. They just dont know about it.

These blokes earn 75k of essentially disposable income, which Ford would love to get a hold of. When ever the talk of a ute comes up, its always, without fail about a commodore SS, and occasionally my old 3v might get a mention.

People are somewhat raised with a mentality of holden vs ford and stick by that as they are uneducated (nor care) about the subject. Its a hard egg to crack.

A fine example of ford's rubbish marketing.

Same is shown with the XR5 turbo. People are still only just learning about them now. They've been around since 2006 and stopped being made in late 2010.

kaniSS · 23-09-2011, 09:22 AM

People buy Holden's for their range IMO. They provide a wide range of vehicles for every taste with quality that gives you no migraines.
Sedans, sports wagons, compact vehicles, suv's, fast sporty HSV's.

I have owned a few cheapish Holden's in my life as well as fords and the only problem I have had with my Holden's where the replacement of a sensor.

I own a 42k 2010 FG XR6T and everyday its a new creak, clunk, interior deterioration or an odd sound. I am just waiting for the day when something major gives up, cause I know it will. I still love the car but it's a headache.

StrikeTwiceXR6 · 23-09-2011, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexyxe

A lot of my mates (22 - 25) are very surprised when I tell them about the s'charged v8 Ford offers. They just dont know about it.

Spot on! People don't know about it and it's Fords poor marketing of it that has resulted in this. When was the last time you saw a tv ad for the FG XR6T? It's close to 12 months to the day since the Coyote was "unleashed", and I could count on one finger the amount of times I have seen the Moffat/Coyote tv ad.
Holden will have the whole world knowing what they are up to, and this is the case even when the car is a proto that will never see the open road.
Ford have a great product and it's a great shame that "no-one" knows about it (can't argue with the fact that sales support this). Fuel prices have nothing to do with it either because Commodores are still selling aren't they

2011G6E · 23-09-2011, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

We all know fords have delivered a pretty solid product with fg falcon.

Our i6 makes the holden 6 pretty limp wristed. The fpv cars pretty much fo the same with the holden/hsv v8s..

I often wonder if people who say this have ever driven a new Holden six cylinder...? Even the standard "small" motor has an inordinate amount of get up and go...to the point where a salesman said to us that he makes a point of avoiding if he can telling people (those vanishingly small few who actually ask nowadays how "big" it is beyond "is it a six cylinder?"...cubic capacity hardly comes into it now with most buyers) what capacity the engine is so they don't have a pre-concieved notion of it being "too small", rather letting them test drive it first and then reveal it.
I've driven quite a few...rentals they have got out here for us at work, test drives of both the "small" and "large" V6 at dealerships...and found them all to be a pleasant, spirited engine that puts out plenty of grunt. I'll admit I've always had a soft spot for straigth sixes, but I'm not about to ignore the plus's of any strong engine just because it is a V6 or has the "wrong badge" on it...
the Ford I6 is a great engine...more than adequately powerful, very efficient for it's size and the weight of car it has to lug around...but it could be a bit smoother. However, harshness when being revved is something I've put up with since my first Ford six, a worked 4.1 iron-head X-flow in a TE Cortina, and the iron-head X-flow in the XC-Update Fairmont GXL we owned. It's the nature of the beast, and something they surprisingly haven't engineered out yet to make a good motor a truly great motor.

RAPID_BA · 23-09-2011, 10:56 AM

Since Coyote...

What are the sales of F6/GT/GS Miami

against F6/GT/GS 5.4

What about HSV for the same periods..

I think the Miami hasnt lifted any sales from the 5.4 days and the HSV are still selling the same..

Maybe just a slight shift from F6 to Miami

RAPID_BA · 23-09-2011, 10:58 AM

Surely anyone who spends a certain amount on a car wants the best product in that category..

The FG XT is better than the VE omega.. But Id bet the Omega outsells it easily. How?? Would you go and pay the $32k and get a feeble little 3.0 litre V6 in the VE when the FG gets the full might of the I6 4.0 at similar fuel economy? rest of the car ford is better as well.

2011G6E · 23-09-2011, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

Surely anyone who spends a certain amount on a car wants the best product in that category..

The FG XT is better than the VE omega.. But Id bet the Omega outsells it easily. How?? Would you go and pay the $32k and get a feeble little 3.0 litre V6 in the VE when the FG gets the full might of the I6 4.0 at similar fuel economy? rest of the car ford is better as well.

Because of the economy. Facing facts, the 3 liter V6 isn't "feeble"...as I said, ever driven one?...and it gets astounding economy when driven the way the majority of buyers drive it. If you are after a romping stomping rip snorter and prefer to drive with your foot buried in the floor, people will buy a V8. The greater number of drivers don't care about cubic capacity, they want a pleasant car to drive that gets good economy.

Since the dawn of EFI in Australian cars, the game changed...no longer did "size equal might"...and a smaller engine, well designed, can easily see of a much larger engine especially when it comes to what matters to buyers...and today, that isn't brute horsepower or 0-100kph times.
When we were buying, it was honestly a flip of the coin as to whether we drive home a Falcon or an SV6 Commodore...they were both outstanding cars for the money, with some faults, but we were in a position where the trade-in deal was more importnat to us. We knew the Commodore could get potentially better fuel economy (and we considered that as well) but Ford gave us an amazing trade in offer, so we took home th G6E.

Looking at the Commodore and the Falcon as a "non-brand-dedicated" consumer, as buyers today increasingly are, they are both good cars with thier own pluses and minuses.

**TUF_302** · 23-09-2011, 11:08 AM

Another wonderful Hulk BA thread, wonder how long till it gets closed

XR Martin · 23-09-2011, 11:21 AM

HSVs are a more complete car than the FPVs....
With FPV youve got a great motor in a average chassis. HSV have got a good motor in a great chassis.

**Polyal** · 23-09-2011, 11:32 AM

Whats wrong with the chassis? Just tyre width?

It took VE for GMH to catch up, they spent the money (perhaps more of it on marketing) and they got what they deserved.

The better product is not always the better seller.

StrikeTwiceXR6 · 23-09-2011, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

The better product is not always the better seller.

Spot on! We live in a country that voted in a dead set drip of a prime minister at the last election, so in my opinion, I could not care less what the majority decide is "better" or not.

Stazza_Brendan · 23-09-2011, 11:42 AM

Whats wrong with chassis?
How about those troublesome diff bushes

**DJM83** · 23-09-2011, 11:42 AM

When are you gonna join the HSV owners group HULK?
IMO it's the marketing or lack there of and as posted before the HSV is a more complete car FPV have a brilliant motor that's it.

**Polyal** · 23-09-2011, 11:47 AM

HSV have also stuck to their guns alot longer than Ford/Fte/FPV..they have built what you might call a dynasty and they creates its own roll on effect.

I think HSV's look like back side, but, what they have done is create their own look and culture for the brand. We bag them for importing their engines for all these years but the reality is that it free's up funds for important things like unique styling, that rear end etc etc.

Bag the gimmicks all you want, but they sell cars. They have done well with what they have to move it away from looking like a SS. This gives some perception of value over a Holden V8.

Ford/FPV engineer great cars, but its the over all package and finer detail thats missing. But Im pretty sure most of that will be rectified come the "FG2 FPV".

edit: as for Holden, well Ford might be content with profitability (which is responsible) but being number 1 also IMO gives you the power of attracting people to a winning brand, so your product mightnt be technically as good but its perceived to be and if the price is right then your home.

RAPID_BA · 23-09-2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Because of the economy. Facing facts, the 3 liter V6 isn't "feeble"...as I said, ever driven one?...and it gets astounding economy when driven the way the majority of buyers drive it. If you are after a romping stomping rip snorter and prefer to drive with your foot buried in the floor, people will buy a V8. The greater number of drivers don't care about cubic capacity, they want a pleasant car to drive that gets good economy.

Since the dawn of EFI in Australian cars, the game changed...no longer did "size equal might"...and a smaller engine, well designed, can easily see of a much larger engine especially when it comes to what matters to buyers...and today, that isn't brute horsepower or 0-100kph times.
When we were buying, it was honestly a flip of the coin as to whether we drive home a Falcon or an SV6 Commodore...they were both outstanding cars for the money, with some faults, but we were in a position where the trade-in deal was more importnat to us. We knew the Commodore could get potentially better fuel economy (and we considered that as well) but Ford gave us an amazing trade in offer, so we took home th G6E.

Looking at the Commodore and the Falcon as a "non-brand-dedicated" consumer, as buyers today increasingly are, they are both good cars with thier own pluses and minuses.

have you compared the 3.0L and even 3.6L holden VE against the ford I6 4.0?? Its feeble in that company, costs the same too.

Anyone who drives the ford i6 against the Holden 3.0 or 3.6 just cant ignore the torque and power of the I6. For the same money I stress.

Same goes for the FPV offering, drive them back to back against the HSV and its another no brainer. The Miami/Turbo i6 murders the HSV engine and yet its ignored by the public?

RAPID_BA · 23-09-2011, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJM83

When are you gonna join the HSV owners group HULK?
.

IF a HSV 6.2 litre popped up with an attractive price tag, id grab one, but not for the same money as a Coyote Supercharged GT.. No chance.

burnz · 23-09-2011, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

have you compared the 3.0L and even 3.6L holden VE against the ford I6 4.0?? Its feeble in that company, costs the same too.

Anyone who drives the ford i6 against the Holden 3.0 or 3.6 just cant ignore the torque and power of the I6. For the same money I stress.

Same goes for the FPV offering, drive them back to back against the HSV and its another no brainer. The Miami/Turbo i6 murders the HSV engine and yet its ignored by the public?

hulk it's clear you havent driven a holden.
3.6 leaves the 4.0 behind and both V6's get better fuel economy..

why do i have to buy an FPV if i want a ford V8? where's the XR8?

miami murders a HSV?? only in a strait line, some people like to stop and turn.

**Polyal** · 23-09-2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

miami murders a HSV?? only in a strait line, some people like to stop and turn.

LOL I quite clearly remember that being FTe's mantra at one time

burnz · 23-09-2011, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyal

LOL I quite clearly remember that being FTe's mantra at one time

it's funny how some thing's go full circle.

4.0i OHC · 23-09-2011, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

hulk it's clear you havent driven a holden.
3.6 leaves the 4.0 behind and both V6's get better fuel economy..

It's clear you haven't driven the Ford. The SISI is gutless down low, with no torque to speak of. A full load merely exacerbates this problem. Love the I6's flat torque curve, and superior smoothness/NVH. The difference in fuel economy is infintesimal; you gain so much more in the Falcon.

However, in my experience, some people simply don't notice the difference. Some are happy in a Commodore, and that's fine; I personally don't have to put up with the car.

Yes, the Commo is better looking, and has more interior space, but Falcon seats murder Commo seats. I also prefer the Falcon's sharper steering, and find the Commodore to be vague on centre (albeit much better than my father's Merc).

4.0i OHC · 23-09-2011, 12:34 PM

I'd only buy a Falcon Ute if I were to buy an FG; the IRS in the sedan is worse than the old Watts link. A total regression from the AU's excellent double wishbone system. However, how come people say the HSVs have a much better chassis than the FPVs (this sentiment only started appearing when the Miami came out)? Is it just down to the Control Blade IRS? I can't really figure aout any significant weaknesses. Keep in mind that I haven't driven either a HSV or FPV; I'm just extrapolating from what I've experienced from driving the pov packs (XR6/SV6).

The GS is under-braked (in theory at least).

RAPID_BA · 23-09-2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

hulk it's clear you havent driven a holden.
3.6 leaves the 4.0 behind and both V6's get better fuel economy..

why do i have to buy an FPV if i want a ford V8? where's the XR8?

miami murders a HSV?? only in a strait line, some people like to stop and turn.

ahur???

At best the 3.6 stays with the 4.0 but only at full wide open throttle, top of the rpm. Anywhere under redline the Ford i6 trounces the 3.6 and murders the 3.0L... Its not just about wide open throttle, its about anything from rolling in traffic to wide open throttle where the ford is streets ahead.

For the V8s, They did a test with Miami powered Gt versus GTS and around the same track it was about 3 seconds a lap quicker, they said the HSV actually handled better but the Miami GT had so much grunt it more than made up for it anytime the road was half straight. 3 seconds a lap!!

But the point is, these facts are ignored and people still buying holdens..

Whitey-AMG · 23-09-2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

miami murders a HSV?? only in a strait line, some people like to stop and turn.

Stopping and turning doesn't get you bragging rights........
At the end of the day - both HSV and FPV are more often that not judged by their power output and straight line acceleration. If this wasn't the case - I'm sure FPV would not have invested 40 million dollars on a "localised" version of the 5.0 with supercharging........

There are plenty of examples where previous FPV's were much better executed as an "entire" package but were still chastised for being slower in a straight line. I'm sure the new 5.0 is adequate enough in the handling dept.........it will stop and turn when it needs to.......into a servo to fuel up as required........

....

StrikeTwiceXR6 · 23-09-2011, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ESP

Stopping and turning doesn't get you bragging rights........
At the end of the day - both HSV and FPV are more often that not judged by their power output and straight line acceleration. If this wasn't the case - I'm sure FPV would not have invested 40 million dollars on a "localised" version of the 5.0 with supercharging........

There are plenty of examples where previous FPV's were much better executed as an "entire" package but were still chastised for being slower in a straight line. I'm sure the new 5.0 is adequate enough in the handling dept.........it will stop and turn when it needs to.......into a servo to fuel up as required........

....

Sums it up in a nutshell! Now all Ford need to do is some "bragging" of their own so that every 20-60 year old male knows what Ford have to offer. The biggest beef seems to be that a lot of "car enthusiasts" out there aren't aware of the powerplants that the current FG has hidden under the hood and this can be attributed to a lack of marketing presence.

davenl5l · 23-09-2011, 12:55 PM

holden has better advertising and have brainwashed people into thinking they are australian owned and therefore the only car made in aus.(sad but true)

Wretched · 23-09-2011, 01:10 PM

In terms of the Ford vs Holden battle (if it is still going)
Ford/FPV have a good engine....that is all.
The chassis cannot handle the power, simple.

As for why people by Holden/HSV over Ford/FPV.
They deem it to be the better product at the time of purchase. Same goes for the people who buy FPV/Ford products over Holden/HSV.
You may question they're judgement but everyone has their own preferences.

Really a pointless thread.