fuel saving stop/start for falcon ecolpi

[1TUFFUTE]

http://www.carsales.com.au/news/2012...r-falcon-29927

[flappist]

A mate of mine's Vdub has this technology. It is quite disconcerting having the engine stop at trafic lights and then autostart.

[Mr Hardware]

i still don't understand why incessant cooling/heating of the engine block and extra stress on starting components is really worth saving 3c on fuel. I mean an i6 at idle only chews one litre per hour anyway.

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

i still don't understand why incessant cooling/heating of the engine block and extra stress on starting components is really worth saving 3c on fuel. I mean an i6 at idle only chews one litre per hour anyway.

Probably got nothing to do with happens in reality .. probably more to do with unrealistic numbers for fuel consumption which will be used for sales, overall corporate consumption figures, etc, etc ..

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

i still don't understand why incessant cooling/heating of the engine block and extra stress on starting components is really worth saving 3c on fuel. I mean an i6 at idle only chews one litre per hour anyway.

You ask this question in a country of 20 million people who are implementing a crippling carbon tax to offset the pollution make by the other 7 BILLION?

[Silver Ghia]

And if its a warm or hot day here in Aus you roast while waiting at the lights, as the aircon has stopped. Then the aircon has to work harder to cool down the interior again once you get going.
Hardly makes sense IMO, unless they have a way around that problem as well.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

And if its a warm or hot day here in Aus you roast while waiting at the lights, as the aircon has stopped. Then the aircon has to work harder to cool down the interior again once you get going.
Hardly makes sense IMO, unless they have a way around that problem as well.

What do you mean????

The weather in Australia is exactly the same as northern Europe.

The only difference is we have wombats and they have donkeys.

Although there may be another difference.

Can anyone else think of something that is different besides the academics and government.......

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by flappist

What do you mean????

The weather in Australia is exactly the same as northern Europe.

The only difference is we have wombats and they have donkeys.

Although there may be another difference.

Can anyone else think of something that is different besides the academics and government.......

Sorry, I shouldnt think too hard, I'm just an out of work engineer who was put out to pasture by the Aussie dollar thats also helping the manufacturing industry to collapse. Oh, we have lots of mining instead, so nothing to worry about...

[Dr Smith]

being a half glass full type, I see this as a sign of an 8sp ZF on the cards should the tech be used.

[Rodge]

Hopefully these silly systems can be turned off.

I suspect the majority of us realise there's more wear and tear on the engine and its components through constant starting and stopping than the few cents saved in fuel.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Sorry, I shouldnt think too hard, I'm just an out of work engineer who was put out to pasture by the Aussie dollar thats also helping the manufacturing industry to collapse. Oh, we have lots of mining instead, so nothing to worry about...

Good luck SG.
One solution to the issue you raised is an electronically run compressor taking all load off the engine apart from running the alternator and also adding to the economy figures. With EPAS, a similar unit for a/c and stop start tech you could get very big gains in economy, well at least on the official economy stickers, lol. ...just make sure you have an extra h/d battery.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

Sorry, I shouldnt think too hard, I'm just an out of work engineer who was put out to pasture by the Aussie dollar thats also helping the manufacturing industry to collapse. Oh, we have lots of mining instead, so nothing to worry about...

Engineer? Well that explains it all.......

How do you expect to get work in the current Australian economy when every time you are asked what 2 + 2 equal you always answer 4 instead of 5 or 7 or elephant or whatever answer they need to make themselves look slightly less silly.......

[Road_Warrior]

I wouldnt read into it too much, that's just Carpoint's speculating, 8 speed ZF won't appear until the 2014 update if at all and auto stop-start would need to be across the range, not just one engine type.

They could implement EPAS across the range and an electric water pump for better efficiency than stop-start tech.

[Brazen]

I thought it was referring to the Ecoboost not EcoLPI

[music189]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Hopefully these silly systems can be turned off.

I suspect the majority of us realise there's more wear and tear on the engine and its components through constant starting and stopping than the few cents saved in fuel.

Yeah and the battery retailers will love it all those cars siiting at the lights engine off touch the pedal should restart oops the battery has failed what will that do for congestion????

[2011G6E]

Couple of points spring immediately to mind...which have already been mentioned.
First: the air con. Buggered if I'm going to sit in the middle of Rocky or out here at Emerald say, in November to February, baking in the car waiting for the lights to change without the engine and air con running.
Second: what does it do to battery/starter life and all the other components? What happens when your battery gets a couple of years old and you start hammering it with repeated starts in heavy traffic?

Do you really save that much fuel by doing this sort of thing in stop-start traffic? You'd want to be stopped for an awfully long time for it to make any difference...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Couple of points spring immediately to mind...which have already been mentioned.
First: the air con. Buggered if I'm going to sit in the middle of Rocky or out here at Emerald say, in November to February, baking in the car waiting for the lights to change without the engine and air con running.
Second: what does it do to battery/starter life and all the other components? What happens when your battery gets a couple of years old and you start hammering it with repeated starts in heavy traffic?

Do you really save that much fuel by doing this sort of thing in stop-start traffic? You'd want to be stopped for an awfully long time for it to make any difference...

Yes, you do and it makes a big difference on both the Urban and US city cycles...... A/C driven by electric motor.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes, you do and it makes a big difference on both the Urban and US city cycles...... A/C driven by electric motor.

That's sort of a semi hybrid in concept with the electric motor running the air con instead of the wheels. I could see it working.

250amp alternator?????????

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Do you really save that much fuel by doing this sort of thing in stop-start traffic? You'd want to be stopped for an awfully long time for it to make any difference...

From the Ford UK engineer Andrew Fraser, Ford's Manager for Gasoline Powertrain Development, brought out here for the Ecoboost launch regarding stop/start tech:

"Yeah, it's absolutely brilliant," he replied unequivocally. "I've had a couple of cars with it — and now I've got a car that doesn't have it I really miss it. On the test cycle, the NEDC, it's [worth] about four or five per cent. On the open road it's zero, but if you drive around a big city... it could easily be 10 plus per cent..."

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by TMC

That's sort of a semi hybrid in concept with the electric motor running the air con instead of the wheels. I could see it working.

250amp alternator?????????

So the battery has to power the transmission pump, steering pump, probably the water pump, the aircon now, plus the headlights at night, and also the starter motor every so often, yes it would need to be a substantial battery and alternator.

But back to the aircon, we are (or at least used to be) spoilt by quite effective aircon systems in our Falcons, unlike those I've experienced in European cars. So will there be some compromise there so smaller compressors are used? One thing that attracted me to the Falcon was the fantastic aircon, especially in the AU Fairmont.

No, where I live there is no need for me to have stop start technology, unlike those driving mainly in suburban streets.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

No, where I live there is no need for me to have stop start technology, unlike those driving mainly in suburban streets.

Edit after rereading your post.

Stop/start function would then remain recessive- not intrude in your driving, pretty sure the function can be over ridden if you need.

[mik]

if you have to go across the big smoke daily , IE: across Melbourne or across Sydney in peak hour traffic where a trip that should take 25 minutes takes an hour or more most of which a lot is sitting at railway gates/traffic lights/intersections, or even stopped dead on freeways , to me it would seem a good fuel saving, don`t know about the other concerns.

The eight speed ZF would be very nice, 1000 nm capability for the FPV models .

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by mik

if you have to go across the big smoke daily , IE: across Melbourne or across Sydney in peak hour traffic where a trip that should take 25 minutes takes an hour or more most of which a lot is sitting at railway gates/traffic lights/intersections, or even stopped dead on freeways , to me it would seem a good fuel saving, don`t know about the other concerns.

The eight speed ZF would be very nice, 1000 nm capability for the FPV models .

Problem with stop start in Melbourne though, on the M1 freeway it might take you an hour to get into the city from Dandenong but it is extremely minimal the times you are actually stationary. The worst is you are rolling at a few k's at best you are doing 25. With the Ecoboost and EcoLPI, fuel saving would be minimal at best .... or zero. To idle a car at full stop vs having it restart after 5 seconds standing, every 10 minutes, 5 days a week would be a few dollars difference a year?

Is it worth it or is just another 'sounds good' idea on an already economical engine. A car idling at a stop light for a total of 10 minutes per day ...... what does that equate to in fuel used in a car doing 8/100 over a year?

[Nikked]

-Ware and tear will be no more, lets say you are stopped for 30-60 seconds at a light...that's between 400-1500 engine revolutions not used. The engine is left in a "fire" position, so that as soon as you hit the accelerator, the engine will fire. Stop/start engines only work when the engine is up to temp.

-The PCM isn't brain dead, if things like A/C etc are creating a load on the electrics, the engine wont switch off. The system monitors the battery life also, if there is not enough power to start the engine, it wont turn off.

People seem to think its just a system carelessly tacked on, but just like most things that a manufacturer will implement, it goes through many computer and real world tests.

Some of the remarks here seem to suggest that Ford don't have any engineers, and just put a stop switch on the brake pedal. Ford have just released a magnificent range of engines in the EB4, TDiV6 and EcoLPG...so i think they would no a fare bit more then a couple of dubious Internet uses.

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Problem with stop start in Melbourne though, on the M1 freeway it might take you an hour to get into the city from Dandenong but it is extremely minimal the times you are actually stationary. The worst is you are rolling at a few k's at best you are doing 25. With the Ecoboost and EcoLPI, fuel saving would be minimal at best .... or zero. To idle a car at full stop vs having it restart after 5 seconds standing, every 10 minutes, 5 days a week would be a few dollars difference a year?

Is it worth it or is just another 'sounds good' idea on an already economical engine. A car idling at a stop light for a total of 10 minutes per day ...... what does that equate to in fuel used in a car doing 8/100 over a year?

Very true, the traffic snarls here in Melbourne on the Citylink heading South to the Bolte and East to the tunnel, where its stop for a few seconds at the most, then first & second gear crawl etc, quite different to that experienced in Birmingham, UK on the motorway, where it often went to a standstill for some time. Perhaps it will become gridlocked here as well in time to come, due to inadequate freeway planning and construction.

Originally Posted by Nikked

People seem to think its just a system carelessly tacked on, but just like most things that a manufacturer will implement, it goes through many computer and real world tests.

Some of the remarks here seem to suggest that Ford don't have any engineers, and just put a stop switch on the brake pedal. Ford have just released a magnificent range of engines in the EB4, TDiV6 and EcoLPG...so i think they would no a fare bit more then a couple of dubious Internet uses.

Not at all, the systems in the EcoLPi and Ecoboost appear to have been quite thoroughly developed. Just that it is hoped that systems like the aircon (which is important to me) is not compromised further for the sake of the stop start technology. It already has been observed that the aircon on BA's, BF's and FG's have been designed inferior to the AU aircon system for whatever reason.

[TMC]

Here in Perth you can often be stopped for minutes at a time at a set of lights. Some of them require 3 or more light changes before you get through. Totally frustrating. Stop/start technology may help here.

[mik]

i guess it depends where you are , i know my neck of the woods there are multiple intersections in peak times where you can be trapped, or on one stretch of road with many sets of lights in a short distance, not to mention the rail line running north south about 2 k`s to the east of me , and another running north south about 2 k`s west of me :(, so there are multiple boom gates to get past,
not to mention we often have the western ring road car park/ eastern freeway car park, sydney rd car park,reservoir junction car park, and many more , you can just watch your fuel gauge going down traveling in peak times.

[Nic85]

This technology is great for manufacturers to put in their cars because it enables them to save 0.5-1L/100km on the URBAN cycle for the official fuel economy test of their cars.

In the real world it saves stuff all, unless you're constantly driving in the city, and constantly stopping for prolonged periods. And, if that's the case, just buy a friggen hybrid and be done with it.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by TMC

Here in Perth you can often be stopped for minutes at a time at a set of lights. Some of them require 3 or more light changes before you get through. Totally frustrating. Stop/start technology may help here.

A whole 3? Suggest you don't try Sydney peak hour traffic.

[stev3n]

I like the idea in general. But I wonder how quickly the system would spring into action at an intersection, when you are stationary, trying to enter a gap in fast flowing traffic. Without having driven a car with this feature I would feel uneasy going for a small break in traffic.