Who is at fault??

rayner22 · 25-05-2011, 11:20 AM

Had a minor bingle yesterday... Thankfully no injuries and completely minimal damage to my car and the other persons car had not even a mark.

What happened was: I had stopped at a set of lights that turns onto the road to my suburb. It is basically a turn left at any time lane, that merges onto a twin lane main road divided by a centre median strip for the greater majority.

I was sitting behing a old blue camry station wagon, we both had to wait for a couple of cars coming down the road but then all was clear. The woman in front of me in the camry took off, so I had a quick check over the shoulder before taking off as its a bad spot for people running the lights as you turn out.
A white BMW was turning onto the same road from the other side and he turned into the right hand lane just as I started to roll forward.

BUT just as I turned back around, and all this happened in the space of time it takes to do a quick shoulder check. The woman in the camry had come to a complete stop in the left hand lane just as the BMW came alongside her.

No brake lights came on the back of her car that I remember, so Im guessing she panicked and stalled it. She had had no idea I was behind her and that she had thought the BMW was going to sideswipe her. Even though I had been behind her for a bout 2-3 km's as the road we were merging off is an exit from the M1 motorway.

I only had enough time when I turned back around, to slam the brakes as hard and quick and try and swerve round the back of her car. I was probably on doing 5km\h max. We both pulled over and had a look and there was absolutely no damage to her car and it seemed (untill I got home and had a better look) I only had a ding in the rego plate that we thought was where the towbar had hit.

If it wasnt for one of those really long Hayman Reece towbars on the back of her car I wouldnt have even hit her at all. But when I got home and had another look, the towbar had snagged where the foglight recess is on the passenger side of my BF XR, and slid inwards. The foglight cover had shattered into a million pieces ( still havent found all of it lol), the lamp itself survived but the mounting bracket had shattered into twenty pieces from the pressure.
The side of the front bar had also slightly popped out on the passenger side underneath the front guard. I popped this back in straight away.

So considering what it could have been Ive only got a few tiny scratches inside the foglight housing where the actual towbar has gone through, a smashed foglight mounting bracket, missing foglight cover and two busted clips on the side bumper retainer ( but I think I maybe broke this when I hastily pushed the bar back into place - should have undone the screws and scrivets in the wheel well first

). Touch wood, but so far its only cost 70 bucks for a new foglight and 28 bucks for a new bumper retainer which Im replacing to be on the safe side.Small cost for me for well, a incident that could have been a lot worse...

There's no insurer etc involved, as we both at the time thought no damage, and well the excess is no way close to how much damage Ive got ($100 versus $800 excess) but really who is at fault??
I know the general rule says I am as Ive hit from behind, but surely the camry driver would have some blame for well, not really having a reason to stop so suddenly IN the lane. I can understand thinking youre possibly going to get swiped but well, she's probly lucky I wasnt driving a semi. Ive got a feeling she might have had no working brake lights, if they were working they were that dull I couldnt see them or she stalled in panic, it was only noticing I was closing in that I realised it was trouble.

burnz · 25-05-2011, 11:25 AM

who's at fault?? you are unfortunatly..

entheos · 25-05-2011, 11:27 AM

UNfortunately in teh eyes of insurance companies and the law you would be at fault. It really sucks that it's happened and I know in theory it's not either of your faults REALLY....but because you have run up the back of her it's YOUR fault... PITA, but I'm fairly certain that is the case.

Just be very glad that it's only cost a few $$$'s to fix rather than hundreds!!

Yaw · 25-05-2011, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

who's at fault?? you are unfortunatly..

Spot on Burnz.
You have hit the car you were following. You must keep a safe distance in order to avoid an accident. as an accident has happened, you did not have a safe distance.

deesun · 25-05-2011, 11:29 AM

Yep you, sorry.

GT450 · 25-05-2011, 11:30 AM

Unfortunately the law says it's your fault and would still have been if you'd been in a semi trailer. You have to travel at a safe distance and be aware of wht's happening around you. That said it was one of those unavoidable accidents everyone experiences at some time in their life.
You feel you need to share the blame , that's normal, but doesn't repair the damage. You will be very careful at that spot in future i assure you.
Cheets
GT450

xisled · 25-05-2011, 11:37 AM

Yes what everyone has said your at fault. Just keep in mind also, even tho there may not be any visible damage at the scence to her car, she still may have damage to her car. You could still be hit by a big bill from an insurance company or a letter of demand from her.

rayner22 · 25-05-2011, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xisled

Yes what everyone has said your at fault. Just keep in mind also, even tho there may not be any visible damage at the scence to her car, she still may have damage to her car. You could still be hit by a big bill from an insurance company or a letter of demand from her.

Thats exactly why one of the first things I did was to take numerous photos of my car in case, she later has another accident, causes more damage and tries to blame me. She wasnt interested in exchanging details etc (though I wrote down her rego straight away), and took off a fair while before I even got back to my car.

I know Im really at fault, sucks but well there was not much I could really do. Just like GT450 said just one of these incidents that can't be avoided that everyone goes through some day. Im more glad its bugger all damage and that we were not sideswiped by the BMW, that could have been a lot worse (its a 70k zone).

And if some people are thinking I was tailgating etc, I always keep a least three car lengths, but well what exactly does everyone do when both are stopped at an intersection?? I doubt many of us could truly say we still stay 3 car lengths behind.

bobthebilda · 25-05-2011, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayner22

And if some people are thinking I was tailgating etc, I always keep a least three car lengths, but well what exactly does everyone do when both are stopped at an intersection?? I doubt many of us could truly say we still stay 3 car lengths behind.

Its just one of those things that happen. Obviously its a bit hard to look to the left to see on coming traffic or whatever else is happening around you, but the last thing you really should be doing is looking where your car is going.

3 car lengths is excessive for slow moving traffic (or even stpped traffic), and not enough for faster moving traffic. The general rule is to stay 2 to 3 seconds behind the car in front of you, it works at all speeds (even when stopped)

rayner22 · 25-05-2011, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

Its just one of those things that happen. Obviously its a bit hard to look to the left to see on coming traffic or whatever else is happening around you, but the last thing you really should be doing is looking where your car is going.

3 car lengths is excessive for slow moving traffic (or even stpped traffic), and not enough for faster moving traffic. The general rule is to stay 2 to 3 seconds behind the car in front of you, it works at all speeds (even when stopped)

Yeah, I meant seconds not lengths lol

2011G6E · 25-05-2011, 12:06 PM

Did exactly the same thing as you did many years ago in Bundaberg...in fact swap the cars for a red XD Falcon with the same type of big protruding towbar, a merging green Commodore, and my car, a 1984 VC Commodore, and the exact same thing.
I looked over my shoulder after the falcon in front started moving off to watch for merging traffic, looked around, and saw he'd stopped. Bang. The towbar caved in the exact center of the chrome bumper on my Commodore, and did literally no damage to him. Completely my fault.

Just one of those things i'm afraid. It's up to you to watch that the car ahead hasn't stopped for any reason...pedestrian stepping out, car pulled in front of him, turning into a park, etc.

**Whoosha** · 25-05-2011, 12:11 PM

Did the same thing a few years back

now I have got into the habit of not even looking right or left till all the traffic has cleared in front of me then check to see if it's clear ,may take a few seconds longer to get around the corner but cheaper in the long run

nstg8a · 25-05-2011, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

but the last thing you really should be doing is looking where your car is going.

lol, i think you got that a bit backwards.

Springfield_Johny · 25-05-2011, 06:39 PM

What everyone else sais unfortunately, you were moving forward without watching where you were going, this apparently is quite common tho from those turn left at any time, everyone peering over their shoulder thinking the car in front has moved completely off and not stopped

**Silver Ghia** · 25-05-2011, 06:47 PM

A common trap for drivers, especially inexperienced ones. I've seen it happen several times. Do as Woosha suggested, dont look to the right until its all clear in front.

TheSneakiness · 25-05-2011, 07:19 PM

I know exactly where you are talking about and it is a shocker.

Unfortunately as everyone as said, you are in the wrong according to insurance and the law. Sucks too cause there are plenty of friggin idiots here that either go waaay too fast, waaaay too slow or have no idea at all.

rayner22 · 25-05-2011, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

I know exactly where you are talking about and it is a shocker.

Unfortunately as everyone as said, you are in the wrong according to insurance and the law. Sucks too cause there are plenty of friggin idiots here that either go waaay too fast, waaaay too slow or have no idea at all.

Yeah theres going to be a major prang here one day. People either cant merge without stopping in the left lane or they think they need to use both lanes and chop across just to turn. Combine that with following traffic at 60-70km and its a recipe for disaster.
Makes it even worse since the road was widened as you'd know. Enough room for a b-double to do a u turn lol.

Forgot to add in my original post that where I was stopped and started off from is actually downhill from where she was stopped at the peak of the crest. So it is a bit of a blind spot as well.

Live and learn I guess.

LTDHO · 25-05-2011, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

A common trap for drivers, especially inexperienced ones. I've seen it happen several times. Do as Woosha suggested, dont look to the right until its all clear in front.

Agree, it's just from inexperience.
Always make sure the path you are heading is clear first.

fmc351 · 25-05-2011, 07:38 PM

Blame the Beamer!

yeah yeah, its a joke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nstg8a

lol, i think you got that a bit backwards.

Much like the OP.

Its not one of those things that has to happen to everyone, nor is it unavoidable (but yep, has happened to me or close to it). Ive done exactly the same thing when I first got my licence in my HK Monaro, lucky for me I stopped just short of shunting the new car in front. Insurance???, I had none at the time.

My other half did the same thing and she shunted a ute. Still doesnt have to happen, and is completely avoidable. Im guessing its fairly common though.

ASSUMPTION.

GULL · 25-05-2011, 07:39 PM

You can be going down the M1 @ 110 klm ,slam on the breaks,and anything that hits you from behind is at fault !!

2011G6E · 25-05-2011, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GULL

You can be going down the M1 @ 110 klm ,slam on the breaks,and anything that hits you from behind is at fault !!

Actually, yes, they probably are. [U]Unless[/I] of course someone can prove that you were doing it for some weird reason of your own, but it would be hard to prove that. There's a big difference between slamming on your brakes on a highway for no apparent reason and slamming on your brakes because someone has cut in front of you.
There is also a big difference between this and turning out onto a road and running into someone ahead of you.

SteveJH · 25-05-2011, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GULL

You can be going down the M1 @ 110 klm ,slam on the breaks,and anything that hits you from behind is at fault !!

Not if you have no reason for slamming on the brakes. Police could probably do you for dangerous driving.

rayner22 · 25-05-2011, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Not if you have no reason for slamming on the brakes. Police could probably do you for dangerous driving.

Exactly!!! While I admit I am at fault etc etc. At the end of the day no one can somply drive around slamming their brakes willy nilly for no reason.
The car in front of me had no real reason for stopping. And if she did she should have pulled over, theres about 5m of flat, asphalted clearing on the shoulder of the road. There was no chance of impact from the BMW as it is a very wide dual carriageway. She also stopped not at the corner but about 5m past it in the middle of the left hand lane.
At the end of it all,yes I am technically at fault but if everyone slammed their brakes and came to a complete stop in a similar situation at intersections when a car in the outside lane approaches, there'd be an abundance of wrecks to pick over at the wreckers.

Considering its my first ever incident in 14 years of driving and that includes no speeding fines etc, I think Ive done pretty well except for this once off second when I wasn't looking in the direction I obviously needed to be at that exact instant.

TheSneakiness · 25-05-2011, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayner22

Yeah theres going to be a major prang here one day. People either cant merge without stopping in the left lane or they think they need to use both lanes and chop across just to turn. Combine that with following traffic at 60-70km and its a recipe for disaster.
Makes it even worse since the road was widened as you'd know. Enough room for a b-double to do a u turn lol.

It's just the typical rat race. You have those who are in a rush regardless and this would cause a timid driver to panic 95% of the time.

I'm just waiting for it to happen. And when it does, we'll both say "we told you so".

rayner22 · 25-05-2011, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rapid_Axe

It's just the typical rat race. You have those who are in a rush regardless and this would cause a timid driver to panic 95% of the time.

I'm just waiting for it to happen. And when it does, we'll both say "we told you so".

My money's on either this spot or the roundabout at woolies - single lane roundabout into twin lanes sooner or later its going to happen.
Plus you can add in the idiots who think this place at night turns into a street course and drift arena...

StrokedXT · 25-05-2011, 08:54 PM

Your fault, just unlucky but it happens alot.

Supercharged · 25-05-2011, 09:01 PM

Sorry, your fault, too close and not looking where you were going.

fmc351 · 25-05-2011, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rayner22

Exactly!!! While I admit I am at fault etc etc. At the end of the day no one can somply drive around slamming their brakes willy nilly for no reason.

Actually I think they can. Just like if you hit an illegally parked car, youre at fault. The thing is stationary. If a car slams on the skids for no reason, you are legally required to be traveling at a safe distance. If you hit the car, you cant have had room to stop even if they had good reason to stop. That is, you would still hit them even if they had legitimate reasons to slam on the brakes.

In a civil case, it MAY be found to be contributory to the damage and as such you might not be fully liable financially. But Im fairly sure the legal liability is all yours.

The other driver may be charged with an offence too, but that wont change your issue either. Although obviously connected, they arent the same offence.

TheInterceptor · 25-05-2011, 09:43 PM

I was tought to never look right till the car infront of you has left. Once its clear then you look right and proceed.

Least you know now, and thats whats important.

fmc351 · 25-05-2011, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheInterceptor

I was tought to never look right till the car infront of you has left. Once its clear then you look right and proceed.

Least you know now, and thats whats important.

I was taught that too, also if youre going to look right or left make sure your foot is touching the brake pedal at all times too. Reaction time is much quicker if the unexpected happens in front of you. In most cases Im actually stopping anyway, at least slowing right down, and I quickly check the direction of the other traffic (as in side street or main road Im entering), then a proper check once the car in front is gone so Im looking ahead when i take my foot off the brake and accelerate.

its actually more complicated because you do prechecks if possible, and often recheck a few times, alternating between front, side front, etc then check mirrors to sight merging opportunities or someone moving into your lane.