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#1 | |||
Pity the fool
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wait Awhile
Posts: 8,997
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...20/3222259.htm
Quote:
$228 Million per aircraft for the first 14 airframes when we could have piggybacked onto the current production run of the F-22 Raptor at a unit cost of US $177 Million!! Perhaps a few more of those Super Hornets wouldn't be a bad idea right now...
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Fords I own or have owned: 1970 XW Falcon GT replica ![]() Proud to buy Australian and support Ford Australia through thick and thin |
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#2 | ||
I am Groot
![]() Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnett Heads, Qld
Posts: 6,840
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Got me buggered why have to constantly link ourselves to the US when it comes to this stuff.......
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.. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() "Those were the days when the cars were cars, they weren't built out of an Ikea pack like they are now and clothed in plastic; they were real cars." John Bowe |
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#3 | ||
Za Dom spremni
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,759
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isnt the f22 being axed ?
DJR, where else would we get that kind of technology ? As a tax payer Im happy that we are trying to stay one step ahead of potential foes with this kind of stuff
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2017 red mustang GT manual XB coupe 351 4spd sunroof onyx black XBGT 4 door Sunroof apollo blue AU III XR8 red ute |
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#4 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: ...in the shed
Posts: 3,386
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#5 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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Quote:
as a tax payer what you should be worried about is that the JSF doesnt represent value for money. Especially when the aircraft is not suited to our needs.
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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#6 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 181
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F22 is and/or never was an option...
No matter how good the relationship.... F22 was never! for sale.. The yanks just wouldn't do it!
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XB 4 Door Build Thread --> Here! |
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#7 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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I cant remember the orginal name of the program (I think it was AIR2000), but orginally as far back as 1998 request for tenders were called to meet the RAAFs requirements to orginally just replace the F18. A short list of 4 aircraft was announced in 2000, this included (from memory, id have to look all this up again) the french Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon, an upgraded version of the F15 strike eagle and the Ukrainian (russian) SU-30 series of long range fighters. The Ukranians even offered Australia a licence to make them here and set up a factory etc.
The Lockheed Martin F35 WAS NEVER OFFERED to Australia. It never submitted anything. At the time it wasnt even flying.. it was a "paper" aeroplane. A computer design! A prototype had not even been built. Suddenly defence drops the RFT and announces that it has bought into the program (paying a $100Million nonrefundable) as a 3rd teir? partner or some such rubbish. That money was just to buy into the program, its not a deposit or a commitment to buy. Defence and the Federal Government all come under the same procurement guidelines. There is federal legislation about large procurement and clearly this whole program did not follow any of the guidelines, unlike the orginal procurement for the F18 (back in the 1980s) as an example in which the F18 and F16 were short listed. The reason the F16 was never chosen was because it was a single engine fighter. Now suddenly a single engine fighter is acceptable again? Ask a pilot how safe he feels flying over the ocean in a single engine plane and he will tell you he simply would prefer not to do it. Several other points come to mind to: The F35 is noisier then a twin engine F15, so i can see many noise complaints appearing. The F35 is not a front line fighter, it is for all purposes a CAS (Close Air Support) plane. Yes it has marvelous technology but its weapons bay it too small to carry a large amount of ordanance. It will carry just two large bombs (JADM) and 2 short range AIM132 air to air missiles. This is hardly worthwhile bang for your buck! But defence will argue... the JSF has 4 wing hard points to carry more payload. Great... but once you put bombs on the wings the plane is no longer "stealthy" and may as well be just another F18. The other problem was that in an effort to save money Lockheed Martin has NOT cleared the JSF for external fuel tanks. This means it will need tanker support... again, you give away your position because you have a large slow fuel tanker flying around along the route to support the "stealthy" plane. Battle damage repair is also a problem, because of the aircrafts composite materials it will be almost impossible to repair the plane out in the field should it get even minor damage to its skin. The USAF is having this problem with its stealthy F22 fighter now. The RAAF is now again facing the possibility of leasing more "stop gap" fighters because the F18 is due for retirement in about 3yrs and the JSF still wont be in service in the USA. What happens when there is a problem discovered with the aircraft? The whole fleet is grounded. As with most new products there will be at least a few yrs where issues will crop up and ground these new birds. What then for the RAAF? No fighter at all if we are to go and replace both the Super hornet and F18 with one aircraft type and suddenly its grounded due to a fault. As an example... when the F22 fighter flew its first overseas deployment they had to abort the flight and return to the USA. They were being flown from the USA to JAPAN (2008 i think), when the aircraft reached the international dateline the computers crashed as it didnt know what to do about changing the time/ date! The fleet was grounded and its software rewritten...
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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#8 | ||||
Pity the fool
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wait Awhile
Posts: 8,997
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Quote:
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Fords I own or have owned: 1970 XW Falcon GT replica ![]() Proud to buy Australian and support Ford Australia through thick and thin |
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#9 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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Why don't we just give the septics a big lump of land up north to stick a USAF base?
If Australia gets attacked we are duck poop without them anyway. There was once a time when every young man in this country was familiar with firearms and many owned them privately along with a stock of ammo and some bush gear. Now the best we can hope for is to unfriend them on facebook then SMS their commanders with !!!1!!!!!!11!1!! and then finally plank a tank....... |
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#10 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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The F22 isnt suited either as its a pure defence fighter.
We need a mulitrole aircraft, preferably running two types of aircraft.
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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#11 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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Quote:
you have never dealt with american military types have you? or seen them in action in town when on leave? no way in hell would a yank base be welcomed here.
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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#12 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 12,077
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Quote:
Goose, do you think you are the only person on AFF who has some military interaction in their history? But as you don't ever want to tell anyone who you are or what you do or have done for a living why should anyone believe anything you say? |
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#13 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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I am talking as member of the australian public.... and i have no idea what your background is? do you want introductions?
Townsville is full of soldiers.... soon to be much more. Everytime there is a joint exersize here there are dramas with the behavour of the visiting marines or whoever they are. Attempted murders, glassing, drugs, cops being king hit from behind, really appalling driving, unwanted pregnancies and the usual punch ups. Why on earth would you mention Chinese or Paki or Indian? (Who would want them here here either?) And why on earth would my background make a difference? I dont see other people on here telling you who they are or what they do? Everyone is entittled to an opinion, its a free (supposedly) country. A particular US base in Japan was closed recenlty... due to what the Americans call "cultural differences".... you work it out. the discussion is about the JSF.
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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#14 | ||
N/A all the way
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,459
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No real issue here - if it is delayed much longer and with the $AU murdering the greenback we will pick them up for the same price as a Hyundai Getz with Auto and Air.
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BA GT 5.88 litres of Modular Boss Powered Muscle 300++ RWKW N/A on 98 octane on any dyno, happy or sad, on any day, with any operator you choose - 12.39@115.5 full weight |
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#15 | |||
Za Dom spremni
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 1,759
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Quote:
as for the euro,...we arent buying cars here. I'd throw my lot in with the US any day of the week.
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2017 red mustang GT manual XB coupe 351 4spd sunroof onyx black XBGT 4 door Sunroof apollo blue AU III XR8 red ute |
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#16 | |||||
XR & FPV Owner
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: On the Dark Side of The Moon
Posts: 2,355
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Quote:
![]() The 35 was/is a white elephant. The 22 regardless if it was 'available' to us or not is not better suited. Our conditions and requirements are very different to most Air Forces. Locating a twin engined, large internal tanked, multi-roled, multi payload aircraft may not be as easy as it sounds.
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2005 BF GT (6sp manual - Build #183) 2015 SZ MkII Territory Titanium 2016.75 LZ Focus Sport Quote:
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#17 | |||
N/A all the way
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 3,459
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Quote:
__________________
BA GT 5.88 litres of Modular Boss Powered Muscle 300++ RWKW N/A on 98 octane on any dyno, happy or sad, on any day, with any operator you choose - 12.39@115.5 full weight |
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#18 | |||
I am Groot
![]() Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnett Heads, Qld
Posts: 6,840
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Quote:
There are other of the shelf options available today that are quite adequate for our immediate needs, the bloody thing will probably be obsolete before we ever see one unless it is constantly evolving in which case it will never be finished.... But i suppose we could always email any potential foes to hang on for another 7 years or so as we are not ready for a bit of biffo yet.... The only ones profiting out of this are those doing the lobbying and Lockheed Martin execs.... My 2c worth....
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.. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() "Those were the days when the cars were cars, they weren't built out of an Ikea pack like they are now and clothed in plastic; they were real cars." John Bowe |
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#19 | ||
Bolt Nerd
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ojochal, Costa Rica (Pura Vida!)
Posts: 14,621
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Why don't we build our own??
Ohh, forgot, Gov Aircraft Factory, Gov Ordnance Factory, Naval Dockyard and Ammos all gone.. Privatised and sold off. Ok, well maybe use those big, soon to be empty, tumble-weed strewn factories down Geelong and out at Broady then? In all seriousness though, it's a bloody disgrace... We HAD the expertise, We HAD the technology, We HAD the skilled manpower, We HAD the dedicated factories to produce stuff like this! And we USED to! In fact, we led the world in some of these areas! Ikara Missile anyone? Turana Drone?? Even the trusty Bushmaster. Why don't we just swap a few tonne of coal for 50 Great Wall swing wing fighters or 50 Ssang Yong bombers?
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Current vehicles.. Yamaha Rhino UTV, SWB 4L TJ Jeep, and boring Lhd RAV4 Bionic BF F6... UPDATE: Replaced by Shiro White 370z 7A Roadster. SOLD Workhack: FG Silhouette XR50 Turbo ute (11.63@127.44mph) SOLD 2 wheels.. 2015 103ci HD Wideglide.. SOLD SOLD THE LOT, Voted with our feet and relocated to COSTA RICA for some Pura Vida! (Ex Blood Orange #023 FPV Pursuit owner ![]() |
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#20 | |||
Pity the fool
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wait Awhile
Posts: 8,997
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Quote:
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Fords I own or have owned: 1970 XW Falcon GT replica ![]() Proud to buy Australian and support Ford Australia through thick and thin |
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#21 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ipswich, Qld
Posts: 1,354
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Why not just update the F1-11?
Twin engine, awesome piece of machinery...spend the coin on updating, as opposed to bringing in more planes that will get decommissioned and live out their last days turning to rust...
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----------------------------------------------------- 2012 Focus ST Tangerine Scream Continually having a battle of wits with unarmed opponents. Sez ![]() Photo's by Sez |
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#22 | |||
I am Groot
![]() Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnett Heads, Qld
Posts: 6,840
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Quote:
1. How much did they eventually cost, and how long did it take to get one of them fully operational...? 2. Not enough crews to man them, last i heard they had barely enough to operate half the fleet...! 3. Now the Navy don't want them anymore and want some new ones...!?!? ....but you are right, they were built here.... Sorry for the off topic... ![]()
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.. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() "Those were the days when the cars were cars, they weren't built out of an Ikea pack like they are now and clothed in plastic; they were real cars." John Bowe |
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#23 | |||
Afterburner + skids =
![]() Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Skidsville
Posts: 12,118
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Quote:
Also, As far as I am aware, all the F22 tooling has been destroyed.
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Speed Kills. So buy an AU XR8 and live forever. Oo\===/oO Last edited by Peuty; 20-05-2011 at 06:09 PM. |
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#24 | ||||
I am Groot
![]() Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Burnett Heads, Qld
Posts: 6,840
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Quote:
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__________________
.. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() "Those were the days when the cars were cars, they weren't built out of an Ikea pack like they are now and clothed in plastic; they were real cars." John Bowe |
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#25 | |||
Pity the fool
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wait Awhile
Posts: 8,997
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Quote:
__________________
Fords I own or have owned: 1970 XW Falcon GT replica ![]() Proud to buy Australian and support Ford Australia through thick and thin |
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#26 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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The F111 has already been retired months ago sezzy.
No longer an option. Quote:
you better do some research into how much money defence blows per annum because the socalled experts are in charge and dont care about tax payers money..
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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#27 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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Quote:
The only other option (and politically would never happen) is the Ukranian SU-30 series of fighters. They were as I stated earlier offered to Australia in the orginal tender process (with western avionics, but id imagine intergration would be an issue).
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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#28 | |||
Wirlankarra yanama
Join Date: May 2006
Location: God's Country
Posts: 2,103
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Quote:
As far as Australia buying F22's, I recall US Defense Secretary was quoted "no one from Australia has officially approached the USA regarding purchase of the F22, and if Australia did, then we (USA) would consider the request..." The mission is to fly from Tindall to some place 3000km away, bomb the place and safely return (round trip 6000km), so what options are available? F18 Super Hornet Tornado Eurofighter Mirage 2000 F15 Lets face it, there aren't that many options available from "friendly" countries. The F111 was great plane for just such a mission. |
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#29 | ||||
John
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 23
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Quote:
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Back on topic, the JSF is a bit of a joke some more super hornets and updated F-15s would be a much better choice. |
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#30 | ||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sun City, North Australis
Posts: 4,274
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Quote:
The US cut its budget to only 187 fighters well under the orginal figure which was over 240. Quote:
The final lot of F22s will be delivered this year...
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You've seen it, you've heard it and your still asking questions?? Don't write off the Goose until you see the box going into the hole.... |
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