Not Guilty by Reason of Mental Incompetence

[Iggle Piggle]

My view...

People that voluntarily take illicit drugs, such as ICE, and subsequently commit serious crimes while under the drug's influence, such as murder, should not be able to use mental incompetence as a defence.

They make a conscious decision to take a mind altering substance; they make a conscious decision to become mentally incompetent...they should face full consequences for their actions as if they had committed those actions in a sober controlled state.

However, those are my thoughts only...

[champ]

I agree! They know what will happen when they take the stuff. They CHOOSE to take the stuff. They could also choose to say no but they dont.

[superyob]

Totally agree...

[jaydee]

Agree whole heartedly.
Nobody forced them down that path, and now they have diminished mental ability so it becomes a defence, I don't think so.

[Hazzaman]

Who cares what they plead.

Lock them up and throw away the keys.

[jpblue1000]

I agree,
Does anyone actually have any data suggesting the courts are falling for the plee in significant numbers or is it a case of media wash or just a public perception?
JP

[Express]

Each case on its merits



.

[73 4V XB]

Originally Posted by Hazzaman

Who cares what they plead.

Lock them up and throw away the keys.

The big problem with your wishes is we all pay to house and feed them, personally I'd like to give them 10X what they want and watch them drop 💀

[MITCHAY]

As far as I'm concerned alcohol or drug use should never be considered as a mitigating factor. It's weak as **** that it is even a possibility.

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

As far as I'm concerned alcohol or drug use should never be considered as a mitigating factor. It's weak as **** that it is even a possibility.

Totally agree.

[xr8cam]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

I agree,
Does anyone actually have any data suggesting the courts are falling for the plee in significant numbers or is it a case of media wash or just a public perception?
JP

In order to be tried under the mental health act, one must undertake sessions with a forensic psychiatrist to prove eligibility and it is rarely granted. I can't quote stats but it would appear more a case of media & perception. Overcrowded prisons suggest courts are handing out plenty of custodial sentences and recidivism is running at around 55% currently. The bail laws need serious reform as so many avoidable crimes have been committed but I believe the biggest problem in our judicial system is sentencing. It is never justice when a well connected wealthy person avoids prison/fines/convictions and the poor working class bloke gets all three. Also, sexual crimes against minors. It is a life sentence for the victim who inevitably ends up with failed relationships/substance abuse
mental health problems or suicide whilst the offenders are seemingly looked after.

[xr8cam]

The daily cost to keep an inmate varies widely. Different costs for high risk inmates in a maximum security facility to a fenceless farm in the country. Average national price per prisoner per year is $118,000. Keep in mind this price is for garden variety crims. Move up the security rankings to the Martin Bryant's and Ivan Milat's of the system and these annual costs double. Crime is big business as demonstrated by Group 4 Securities. They are a UK/Danish co who are the 3rd biggest private employer.Check out their website to see what a massive industry this is. The fact that this is a disgrace on our country is for another post.

[Rallye Sport]

The feel sorry for this thread, its the one about to get locked up, mentally incompetent or not...

[GasoLane]

If we could stick to the subject instead of dragging comments from a closed thread into it, this thread may just last a little longer

[Iggle Piggle]

Sorry for the added workload GasOLane...seems you've been busy, that wasn't the intention.

[|||]

so easy to fake a mental "illness" & get away with murder (literally!) do the crime do the time no matter what some quack doctor says

[xr8cam]

Originally Posted by |||

so easy to fake a mental "illness" & get away with murder (literally!) do the crime do the time no matter what some quack doctor says

What an ignorant comment.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by |||

so easy to fake a mental "illness" & get away with murder (literally!) do the crime do the time no matter what some quack doctor says

Actually, it's not. It's easy to claim a mental illness, it's not easy to fake it.

[xr8cam]

What is the procedure to make this claim? Which court is it 'easy to claim mental illness' as you put it?

[scoupedy]

Years ago you could blame being drunk on many things like rape and murder. They would say things like I don't remember I was drunk so a murder charge would be downgraded too manslaughter.
I agree if you go on a bender for days on end you should be just as guilty as any other time should not be an excuse.
The problem with ICE happens when they don't sleep for days and it induces a phycopathic episode. They start to see things think they are being persecuted chased etc.
The drug dealers should also be charged.
The Ice epidemic is causing huge problems we knew it was coming when the American problem hit they call it Crystal Meth.

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by xr8cam

What is the procedure to make this claim? Which court is it 'easy to claim mental illness' as you put it?

You need to read between the lines. I was being extremely facetious. Anyone can claim anything, but I wasn't referring to claims specifically being made in court. See, I can claim that a sky pixie came down from the heavens and kissed me on the nether regions in the middle of the night. It doesn't mean anyone is going to believe me, though.

The guy I quoted reckons it's easy to fake a mental illness; all you need to do is say it and everyone will believe you. My point was that no lawyer would run with a "not guilty on the grounds of mental incompetence" plea unless there was a mental incompetence which could be proven.

I've agreed completely with all of your other points made in this thread.

[Maka]

People born with a background of poverty & or abuse will most likely have a form of undiagnosed mental illness before going down the slippery slope of hardcore drug taking. In saying that, imo certain tier 1 offences equals a mandatory sentence in line with the severity of the committed offence ie mass murder = death penalty like in the US.

cheer's, Maka

[Express]

Coober Pedy residents in shock over actions of Melbourne accused killer driver Jimmy Gargasoulas



23 January, 2017



Elizabeth Henson,
Sunday Mail (SA)



JUST weeks ago, Dimitrious “Jimmy” Gargasoulas was knocking about Coober Pedy, telling locals he was keeping busy working on cars at his childhood home on Flinders St.

Seemingly normal, Gargasoulas was often seen hanging out at the Outback Bar and Grill restaurant and the bar at the Desert Cave Hotel during this latest stint in Coober Pedy.

While he moved away from outback town when he was a child, only returning when he was a teenager and then leaving again about 10 years ago, the now-26-year-old often came back to visit.

He was last in town with girlfriend Akiir Muo, staying for a few months before leaving late last year.

Gargasoulas is the driver accused in the deadly Melbourne CBD attack on Friday.

Strange cars would often pull up at their home at all hours of the night, stay briefly and then take off.

Vehicles were constantly filling the property. Gargasoulas was even seen driving around town in a limousine last year — no one knows why he had such a car or where it went.

The Gargasoulas family home burnt down about 10 years ago. No one was home at the time and the house has not been rebuilt.

Instead, they made a makeshift home out of what appears to be an extended single carport.

The remainder of the property is filled with scrap metal, tyres and vehicles.

A sign has been placed on the fence reading “No stupid people beyond this point”.

One resident, who did not wish to be named, said she immediately recognised Gargasoulas on the news when his image was shown on television.



The sign outside the home where Dimitrious ‘Jimmy’ Gargasoulas grew up in Coober Pedy. Picture: Tom HuntleySource:News Corp Australia


Alex Pantelis, 23, grew up with Gargasoulas and said he was shocked by what happened.

“It’s not like Jimmy,” he said. “He’s usually pretty funny.

Mr Pantelis said Gargasoulas “looked fine” when he saw him in Coober Pedy just weeks ago.

“From what I saw, he was pretty normal,” he said.

“(And) from what I knew, I thought he got along with his brother fine.”

Coober Pedy locals insist Gargasoulas is a nice person.

“He was always nice to me,” one resident, who wished to remain anonymous, said.

Another says the Gargasoulas children, including Jimmy, were always polite.

“(The kids) were not rude,” she said. “Just ordinary, just like any other kid.”

But, for a small town where everyone knows everyone, locals are still coming to grips with what one of their own allegedly did.

“It was so surreal, someone you know doing something like this,” Mr Pantelis said.

“It’s crazy.”


.

http://www.news.com.au/national/crim...3ba7d8ccd36de4

[b0son]

Originally Posted by xr8cam

What is the procedure to make this claim? Which court is it 'easy to claim mental illness' as you put it?

Get a copy of the DSMMD, pick a disorder, produce 'symptoms' on demand.

[zoesgift]

the biggest issue with this whole horrible tragic incident, is that the potential for it to happen again and worse, is HUGE. Go to any public hospital, on any Friday and Saturday night, in any location across this wonderful country, country or city, and you will get your eyes opened very wide with what paramedics have to deal with in emergency departments due to SUBSTANCE ABUSE. Only god knows what happens in the nightclubs parties etc. I understand the anger and sentiment which appears everywhere regarding such incidents but spare a thought for those who have lost loved ones as they are the victims of such a massive problem. the "suspect" will be dealt with accordingly. Deal with the dealers and manufacturers and importers and any others associated with the REAL problem. My thoughts go out to those who have lost loved ones

[xr8cam]

Originally Posted by Cobra

You need to read between the lines. I was being extremely facetious. Anyone can claim anything, but I wasn't referring to claims specifically being made in court. See, I can claim that a sky pixie came down from the heavens and kissed me on the nether regions in the middle of the night. It doesn't mean anyone is going to believe me, though.

The guy I quoted reckons it's easy to fake a mental illness; all you need to do is say it and everyone will believe you. My point was that no lawyer would run with a "not guilty on the grounds of mental incompetence" plea unless there was a mental incompetence which could be proven.

I've agreed completely with all of your other points made in this thread.

With the Bourke St incident, many are suggesting this could be the defense's argument. A forensic psychiatrist interviews the accused to verify the claim of diminished capacity and this is rarely granted. Perhaps you could quote your source or mention to 'read between the line'. Unfortunately, this discussion is very real at the moment so careful choice of words allround I feel.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by Cobra

You need to read between the lines. I was being extremely facetious. Anyone can claim anything, but I wasn't referring to claims specifically being made in court. See, I can claim that a sky pixie came down from the heavens and kissed me on the nether regions in the middle of the night. It doesn't mean anyone is going to believe me, though.

The guy I quoted reckons it's easy to fake a mental illness; all you need to do is say it and everyone will believe you. My point was that no lawyer would run with a "not guilty on the grounds of mental incompetence" plea unless there was a mental incompetence which could be proven.

I've agreed completely with all of your other points made in this thread.

I wonder how many here have actually spent the time in court to find out what really happens?

Claiming and getting are two different things.

Once the usual outcry dies down the Supreme Court will get back to it's day to day business of handing down a life sentence.

[xr8cam]

I have spent more time in courts than I would have liked and my wife's career along with some of her family members involves family courts & criminal courts. Inevitably, bbq's and family events are a good time to discuss all things legal.I am no expert but I always check my facts or advice before passing it on. There is nothing more annoying than thinking your reading fact when it is rubbish. For anybody interested, google your legal inquiry & look for the official link to the specific court etc. There are figures, statistics, and all types of relevant information available, as well as advice, guides & how to's. Because it is such a specialist area, there is every type of help online.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

My view...

People that voluntarily take illicit drugs, such as ICE, and subsequently commit serious crimes while under the drug's influence, such as murder, should not be able to use mental incompetence as a defence.

They make a conscious decision to take a mind altering substance; they make a conscious decision to become mentally incompetent...they should face full consequences for their actions as if they had committed those actions in a sober controlled state.

However, those are my thoughts only...

Actually the law generally in Australia is that if you voluntarily take a drug or alcohol, you wear the consequences as you decided to consume the substance and ought be aware that it can diminish your faculties.

If you are a girl say at a bar, and someone spikes your drink with a mind altering substance, and that girl is touched up and overacts and smashes a glass and severs the carotid artery of the person who touches her, and that guy dies, the girl will have a defence available that she did not voluntarily consume the drug, and was not of sound mind, and was automated at the time of glassing, assuming that the spiked drug caused her to act the way she did.

So the law is in line with what you are advocating.

The interesting issue is when a person has a psychiatric condition, and the courts consider that the offendor was so sick of mind that they could not form the intention to commit an indictable offence requiring intention. Then, the person cannot be charged with murder and the court would reject any attempt to plead to murder, as that charge requires a person to have the capacity to form an intent.

The issue with this is if a person kills someone and cannot be charged with murder- they are locked away in a nutter asylum and may never get the keys to get out.

With murder- after doing time with parole, you get out in a more definitive timeframe.

I have had so many arguments with my old man about this- and the media 5 second sound bite, and always say you need to look at the evidence that was adduced in court, before making a comment. How can anyone make a commentary of any value without knowledge of ALL the evidence.

[bc47]

from a strict practice, diminished responsibility is used as a defence when one key component of the judicial process is called into question.
basically, in order for "the crown" (or relevant prosecutorial body, pretty sure it varies state to state in Aus) to prosecute a homicide as murder, they need to prove the "actus reus" (criminal act) and the "mens rea" (guilty mind).
this, in broad terms, covers off the "pre-meditation" component of a prosecution for murder.
the mens rea can be absent in a prosecution for a number of different reasons, no intention is the most obvious, hence the manslaughter offence category.
So, it has been argued in various courts across the globe, that a drug induced psychosis constitutes an absence of mens rea. Generally the accused's behaviour immediately prior to the event is taken into consideration if this argument is put forward.
So with regard to the incident in Melbourne, I would think that the prosecution would have little difficulty proving the accused's intention to take life through the actions displayed.

sentencing on the other hand.... different ball game entirely