How would you design a new post-apocalyptic society?

[gooseneck]

I've moved my reply to Leesa's post to a new thread to help prevent clogging up the Covid 19- thread. In doing so I've shared my thoughts on how a new society would be created and function.

I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on how they would recreate a new society too.

Originally Posted by leesa

Your ideals are perhaps a little bit more extreme than mine. There are some good things to come from modern society compared to 200 years ago, particularly with modern medicine and better sanitation so we don't die awful deaths from various diseases.

Hold up, I didn't say throw away all the good stuff from modern society, I just said we should live in Tribal community settings with a mostly relaxed rule system and no taxmen, no taxes, etc. But yeah taxes are a good way to pay for good stuff but land taxes? What if you're old and frail or young and injured and the goverment kicks you out cause you can't pay? Land tax must go. So must many others.

Not me either, I don't want to give up my electric razor either. Or my CRT tv collection, or Amiga console collection, or my gaming pc. But I don't want to have to pay $xxx,xxx for a place to house them either, they're not worth that much.

It's just that I think we should have a focus on sustainability and putting it ahead of progress on the list of priorities.

Fully with you so far.

Taxes and levies are still needed so as to pay for communal facilities like water treatment, sewerage, rubbish and recycling facilities. What are you going to do about all those things truly off the grid?

Recycle, The water bottles can be turned into islands, the rest can be ground up into 3D printer "ink" or stock feed.

Swerage can be pumped into multiple underground cement central tanks then out into the ocean, for now until we can harvest it for gas.

Water treatment, I recommend each treehouse/bamboo cabin/wood cabin/teepee tent have their own either above ground or underground water collection system for in-house baths and as for sterilizing the water for drinking a centralised in-town water collection roof system where people can convene and have dinner and cook snags is best. The gas from the sewerage system can be collected then pumped a km away from the sewerage/recycling place and burned and used to boil water and keep it at degrees 100c in a huge boiler.

The steam produced then can be used to run a turbine for electricity, that electricity can then be used to light the place and power the pumps, the electricity grid can be 240v and each treehouse can have its own extension cord going out to a telegraph pole along the street. 3 Phase.

We're not talking a service of thousands of watts per household here, we're talking about a cap of say 1kW, enough to run a microwave oven. Plenty enough to run a gaming pc, vintage consoles, CRT tv's, a plasma tv, a 4K LCD. A convection oven, a steamer, you name it. But not much else.

If people need more power they can use the communal 3 car garage workshop. Where it can be guarded by one guy, Lets call him... Simple Joe.

These workshops don't need to be made out of modern materials, why? That just raises the costs. As far as cyclones go, they're going to destroy anything no matter what it is. I can see the benefits of building a frame out of galvanized steel and a slab out of cement but the rest, can be rebuilt again and again out of bamboo. Its strong stuff, grows quick, Giant Bamboo makes a nice forest too.

So many people seem to think that "constant gradual growth" is the gold standard but really how many things can constantly grow without some sort of long-term consequence? Is that really an achievable goal? Or are we just okay with it provided a few generations get to benefit from it while the ones further down the line have to pay for it? Where's the long-term planning in that?

I figured the bankers and world leaders will just retreat into their bunkers and forget about it until their conscience bites them in their asses and they either commit suicide or do cocaine like they always do in stressful situations. I don't think it fazes them too much at all. They're that inhumane.

Either that or they think that the problem is simply too big to be able to do anything about it political wise. I do know that the corporations are acting like they're stuck in cement and that if they change one simple tiny thing they'll collapse and then again other corprations are changing and finding that their costs go down if they go green.

I know that most corporations however, their days are numbered, they simply rely on a system which was designed in the 1930s-1940s and well... whale oil isn't a thing anymore. Neither should we be making car tyres out of new virgin rubber. Or harvesting lithium using child labor.

But quite a lot will adapt and survive. 3D printers for example are a perfect example of redistributing a large manufacturing task down into something that anyone can do.

I know that isn't the right answer but hey to be honest I don't really know for sure what they're thinking. Its certainly something that can be debated.

Covid should make people realise that our country's self-sufficiency is important. We've become so dependent on other countries just to stay alive and look at what happens when those supply chains are interrupted? This time it's a virus but maybe next time it will be something else, war? who knows? What has globalisation really done for us and is it really worth it?

With you on that again. Globalization is a huge problem here and everywhere, its basically being used as a weapon from either side to deplete a country of its natural resources and leave the country high and dry with nothing but tourism to sell and the leaders in those countries are fully onboard with the strip mining industries. That should give you an idea of how much of a problem we have is and where the descision making is, its in the minds of those leaders and the mega international corporations. We can't touch them even with votes.

You won't convince anyone to change their ways, because the paypacket that they receive is keeping them alive and entertained. The big crunch as I like to call it is when normal middle class people, aka the majority of people in the world realise that their leaders aren't in it for them and turn against each other.

For that I recommend getting a yacht or any boat really and going out in the ocean to wait it off. That or into the bush.

Living within our means should be important, being able to produce food without the farmers having to beg for an extra 10c should be important. Aren't we all interdependent? We should care about the other guy as much as ourself but we just... don't.

Thats it exactly, but its more of either extreme, Marxism is an extreme and so is full on Consumerism but no one wants a middle ground. No one. Because they consider that to be too "wimpy" or too "soft" for them to be interested. Most People like a fight.

I personally, with your example, believe that a farmer should be able to take 10% but not 20% of a total value of a product. Marxism believes that we should take none, ie have 0% profit. And Consumerism believes we should take 2x-5x the actual market value of a product. The fact is though is that most retail stores today are getting ripped off by the utility companies, the tax man, the local council, the landlord, and everyone else including the thief in the store, so they have to have those high retail prices.

I believe with good policing, small tight knit communities, sectioned off tribal communities where one person can't drive into another without a police escort unless its on grounds of visiting a family member. Low manufacturing costs of building materials. a small government. Low wages but also low costs. Basically almost free electrical power. That we can make a society which is as laid back as possible.

That's the ultimate goal here, to get people laid back as far as possible that they don't need to work super hard.

Thanks for the insightful thoughts.

[Franco Cozzo]

I'd make sure I had control and influence over the essentials - rubbish removal, power, water, electricity, telecommunications, health care, construction, transportation, food supply chain etc.

You aren't doing anything unless me and my group are getting a cut or I'll make you homeless and hungry.

Be careful what you wish for because these 'utopias' create the perfect opportunity for people like myself with an eye for opportunity to capitalise

[buggerlugs]

Quote....... That's the ultimate goal here, to get people laid back as far as possible that they don't need to work super hard.


Just become a Public Servant............

[marty351]

Join the NCR.

[Bossxr8]

Can we call it Jonestown?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Can we call it Jonestown?

Cozzoville

I insist

[Sprintey]

I would use lots of leather, black leather and kinky S&M gear, V8 Monaros and GTs, like my heroes did.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

I would use lots of leather, black leather and kinky S&M gear, V8 Monaros and GTs, like my heroes did.

Cool. Little river isn't far away, so we can tread the same roads as Max

[Sprintey]

That is so cool really, drove some of those roads teaching the young fella to drive, pointing out bits in the movie as we went...

[Sprintey]

Here's a link for you Franco:

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-...6946233d8a116b

Just remember to do it with swagger.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'd make sure I had control and influence over the essentials - rubbish removal, power, water, electricity, telecommunications, health care, construction, transportation, food supply chain etc.

You aren't doing anything unless me and my group are getting a cut or I'll make you homeless and hungry.

Be careful what you wish for because these 'utopias' create the perfect opportunity for people like myself with an eye for opportunity to capitalise

Is that you Negan ?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Here's a link for you Franco:

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-...6946233d8a116b

Just remember to do it with swagger.

See what I mean with these 'utopias'

[Crazy Dazz]

The most important thing is ensuring we have sufficient bunkers:

For all politicians, to ensure that we have a functioning democracy;

Sufficient (senior?) Government Workers, to maintain a functioning Government;

Academia, to preserve knowledge and the advancement thereof;

Artists or all kinds, to preserve our culture;

Business Leaders, Entrepreneurs, and even Billionaires, to make sure we are able to rebuild our economy and industries.


Then make sure they are all locked from the outside.

[zilo]

Utopia?


Easy...just let me own everything and you can buy it back off me.

I give my family all the important jobs and titles and convince all others that our bloodline is superior and you should aspire to be like us.

My family should of course be above the laws of the land and if not we can change them to suit us.

Hell....we will even start a religion and put our family up as the leaders of that.

Then maybe give me a crown and a palace...or three?

For sheets and giggles we can go to far away lands and plunder their resources which we ship back home.


If there is a problem or dissent there we can get our Governor general to sack their government by proxy thereby washing the blood off our hands.

Welcome to the foreign controlled kingdom of Strayya...you're standing in it.

[marty351]

Originally Posted by zilo

Utopia?


Easy...just let me own everything and you can buy it back off me.

I give my family all the important jobs and titles and convince all others that our bloodline is superior and you should aspire to be like us.

My family should of course be above the laws of the land and if not we can change them to suit us.

Hell....we will even start a religion and put our family up as the leaders of that.

Then maybe give me a crown and a palace...or three?

For sheets and giggles we can go to far away lands and plunder their resources which we ship back home.


If there is a problem or dissent there we can get our Governor general to sack their government by proxy thereby washing the blood off our hands.

Welcome to the foreign controlled kingdom of Strayya...you're standing in it.

One problem with that zilo, I have access to guns n stuff. Do you?

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I'd make sure I had control and influence over the essentials

You aren't doing anything unless me and my group are getting a cut or I'll make you homeless and hungry.

But why? If control and coercion is your thing, are you okay with that?
What is it about being in control.. and being able to destroy others.. that satisfies you?

[marty351]

Originally Posted by leesa

But why? If control and coercion is your thing, are you okay with that?
What is it about being in control.. and being able to destroy others.. that satisfies you?

It strangely echos a certain Iberian dictator of the 20th century.

[MITCHAY]

Well I think the basic things work well here. The only thing we need is the freedom of opportunity and the rest will sort itself out.

[Sprintey]

Granada's series on the Spanish Civil War is absolutely excellent - you can see the tragedy in the idealism of many factions, the desire to replace the old - all of it overwhelmed by bloody fighting and wholesale slaughter. No one really wins, let alone people/families.

Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu5f9hp0IP4



If you guys really want to start a new society, I'd suggest the first thing you determine is what will be your money (I'd suggest hard money, not fiat currency because of the temptation to debase the latter leading to societal instability) and whether you would still permit usury (the interest that needs to be repaid demands growth; if you have this you commit to a society that must continue to have growth at higher levels to repay debt + interest: ie, just like our current society.) Myself, I don't mind it (nice when a TD matures), but imagine a society where ongoing exponential growth was not required... That way the leather and S&M gear would not tend to inflate in price over many years, and there would not be a push to make more than organically required, or import more people to wear it to increase demand to make more, etc etc

[Yellow_Festiva]

I have thought about this quite a bit.

Something like Star Trek would be ideal.

When you think about it, as a general rule we are an egotistical, profit driven, selfish society that is more focused on personal satisfaction, greed and unhealthy competition.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace, you

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world, you

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Pretty much sums it up.

[CoupeKing]

Firearms are crucial.

I laugh at these preppers that are anti-gun and think the wind and the scent of nature will save them.

The guy next door that's lived on a diet of dim sims all his life will take over their 30 years of planning, funding, and preparation in 3 seconds with one bullet and an illegal gun.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by CoupeKing

Firearms are crucial.

I laugh at these preppers that are anti-gun and think the wind and the scent of nature will save them.

The guy next door that's lived on a diet of dim sims all his life will take over their 30 years of planning, funding, and preparation in 3 seconds with one bullet and an illegal gun.

You do know you can move to the US if you want to play with guns?

If and when there is a battle worth fighting here, we will be well armed.

[roKWiz]

I thought we already had.....Its called Canberra.







sorry Mitchay

[zilo]

Originally Posted by marty351

One problem with that zilo, I have access to guns n stuff. Do you?

Do re mi...A/B and C

123 babe you and me...

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger

But there would be hunger, that's the problem. Without welfare, who's going to feed all the hippies?
If there is no possession, then there is no food.

Modern History has seen a few attempts to create a Socialist Utopia. The Best attempt, and the one that stuck most closely to its Socialist Ideals, was that created by the National Socialists.
Had it not been for those pesky imperialists in the UK and US, I'm sure they would have succeeded in creating a Vibrant, Modern, and prosperous Europe.

Their methods were a little harsh, outright murdering millions of people who didn't fit with their vision, but I'm sure the end result would have been quite something.

[superyob]

Please do not hold up Lennon's 'Imagine' as a vision of utopia. These fine sounding words are like every other empty platitude, a blue print for the murder of millions...

[gooseneck]

Guys. he isn't referencing Lennon's song he's saying that he wants a Star Trek like universe.

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

I have thought about this quite a bit.

Something like Star Trek would be ideal.

Clearly none of you know anything about Star Trek.

Starfleet does not equal Communism!

Which if you know Star Trek it involves:
#1
no money, just trade. this prevents hoarding of money (which has no purpose for humankind). 1 bar of latinum is the exception, this is Ferengi culture not Starfleet's, aka human. If you want to hoard money you can do so but its pointless because anyone can manufacture anything they want to with sunlight + a replicator.

#2
No warring nations because there is no shortage of food, through synthetic production of food and the manufacture of food on a global scale famine is no more. Neither is pollution, recycling is very nearly 100% on earth in the Star Trek universe.

#3
Population control through depopulating of planet earth via space travel.

#4
The ability to build ships through trade of wealth, mining of asteroids and other planets. The 3D printer is the very early version of the replicator and its only a matter of time before 3D printers make it into space and we can build our own ships without having to launch them from earth.

There is also a dark side to Star Trek. That is in the lore there is a cataclysmic world war before we reach the nirvana of the widely popular current-day Star Trek where we're exploring the universe. Part of this can be seen in the movie Star Trek: First Contact where there is a camp of people in a shantytown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeli...k#21st_century

So the stepping stones are:
#1
Automate everything especially the production of food.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1ieL7x3AMg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGcYApKfHuY

#2
3D print everything.
Automate all factories. including the manufacture of solar panels.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ated+factories

#3
???

#4
PROFIT!!

Btw JJ Abrams is a ****.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

But there would be hunger, that's the problem. Without welfare, who's going to feed all the hippies?
If there is no possession, then there is no food.

Actually, no. How much food is thrown a way, wasted every year?

I just did a little google search - 9 million people a year die from hunger related diseases.

A child every 10 seconds.

We have the ability and technology to feed every mouth on this planet several times over yet we don't.

Food isn't a possession, it's a necessity. It's only a possession when you have a surplus that is to be sold.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by superyob

Please do not hold up Lennon's 'Imagine' as a vision of utopia. These fine sounding words are like every other empty platitude, a blue print for the murder of millions...

How so? I'm curious.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by gooseneck

There is also a dark side to Star Trek. That is in the lore there is a cataclysmic world war before we reach the nirvana of the widely popular current-day Star Trek where we're exploring the universe.

I think I read somewhere that 4 things would cause us to re-assess our priorities on a global scale:

1) World conflict
2) Pandemic
3) Alien invasion
4) God returning / making himself / herself known.